Tenant damage and ordinary wear and tear
Most Popular Reply
Investor · Newark, DE · Member since 2014 · 245 posts · 198 votes
3yIs this a joke? He was your tenant for 4 YEARS and you're worried about painting a wall and replacing a cook top? I would expect more expensive turnover after 1 year, if that is all you have to do after 4 years of on time payments, you should count your blessings.
43 Replies
- 3yGreg ScottPro MemberRental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
It should not be very expensive for your tenant to take you to small claims court. I suspect you may win the point on the painting but lose on the stove. Is fighting this worth your time?
- 3yKar SunMember since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votesOP
Quote from @Greg Scott:
It should not be very expensive for your tenant to take you to small claims court. I suspect you may win the point on the painting but lose on the stove. Is fighting this worth your time?
it costs $798 to replace the ceramic top. My contract is pretty clear that all appliances and any damage to them is a responsibility of a tenant except when defective. I also took the photo of the cook top with his iron skillet next to it. Cast iron is not used on ceramic glass tops. This man used to own a 2 million dollar home. He is not stupid. It looks like he is the one who wants to fight. I will let him do it. He is just ungrateful and unreasonable.
- 3yGreg ScottPro MemberRental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
So your post was clearly not a question, even though you posed it as one.
It remains true that this could be handled in small claims court which costs almost nothing. If he used to live in a $2M house, he probably has the resources to hire a lawyer to try to stick it to you. Do you want to win the battle or win the war?
- 3yTheresa HarrisPro MemberMember since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
He can expect you to paint it and charge him for it. You have to paint the one wall.
It may cost $800 to replace the top, but if the life span of the stove is 10 years and it is 6 years old, you can only charge him for 40% of it. If it is a small scratch (ie not deep), I wouldn't worry about it.
It doesn't matter how much money he has or had, what matters is what is excessive wear and tear.
- 3yKar SunMember since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votesOPYes, I definitely want to hear thoughts. I just happen to disagree with yours. He can hire super powerful attorney. However my contact was very specific about the appliances and damage. And I had the estimate done. I am not in a business of losing money because someone is trying to throw their weight around and scare me. Based on my contract he is at fault. It won’t cost me much if he hires an attorney and I have to go to court. He is unreasonable and clearly disregarding his contract. I have to stand up for my rights. I also have to see my clauses regarding him suing me. I believe I used a very specific language for that as well.
Quote from @Greg Scott:
So your post was clearly not a question, even though you posed it as one.
It remains true that this could be handled in small claims court which costs almost nothing. If he used to live in a $2M house, he probably has the resources to hire a lawyer to try to stick it to you. Do you want to win the battle or win the war?
- 3yKar SunMember since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votesOP
Quote from @Theresa Harris:
He can expect you to paint it and charge him for it. You have to paint the one wall.
It may cost $800 to replace the top, but if the life span of the stove is 10 years and it is 6 years old, you can only charge him for 40% of it. If it is a small scratch (ie not deep), I wouldn't worry about it.
It doesn't matter how much money he has or had, what matters is what is excessive wear and tear.
He damaged the stove top and to replace it there is no percentage of wear. The stove was 3 years old. I can change whatever it will cost me and my contract specifically states the tenant is responsible for all appliances damage Again, this is not an excessive wear and tear this is negligence If every tenant damages a little and doesn’t abide by the contract I will have to cover for them. I am not in a business to encourage people destroying my property through their negligence
- Investor · Newark, DE · Member since 2014 · 245 posts · 198 votes3y
Is this a joke? He was your tenant for 4 YEARS and you're worried about painting a wall and replacing a cook top? I would expect more expensive turnover after 1 year, if that is all you have to do after 4 years of on time payments, you should count your blessings.
- 3yKar SunMember since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votesOP
Quote from @Rumen Mladenov:
Is this a joke? He was your tenant for 4 YEARS and you're worried about painting a wall and replacing a cook top? I would expect more expensive turnover after 1 year, if that is all you have to do after 4 years of on time payments, you should count your blessings.
Was he paying me the money for nothing? I provided a service and a roof over his head. Just because you go to your favorite mechanic do you expect him to give you large discounts because you go to him? You go because of his expertise and quality. Not because he will turn a blind eye and give you a preferential treatment. I completely disagree with your statement. The best tenant is the one who follows the contract not the one who wants me to incur expenses because of his negligence. This is a top notch A class townhouse not some rundown run of a meal apartment.
- Honolulu, HI · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes3y
Aloha,
It does not matter what you, or I, consider "normal wear and tear". It only matters how the local courts view it...some are more tenant friendly, some are not. It also does not matter if you feel the scratched stove top was 100% one day, and trash the next...again it will only matter how the Judge looks at it.
In my experience, for the paint issue, these days it is simple enough to get "computer matched" paint that will blend properly in the middle of the wall; or, as another poster mentioned, you can just paint one wall, corner to corner, after properly patching the mounting holes. Not a huge deal.
The point the other poster was making regarding the life span vs. age, again, in my experience, Judges always look at items that you are able to depreciate each year in exactly that manner. IRS has tables that will tell you the depreciation period for various elements. Appliances are 5 year items, generally. Your 3 year old cooktop is worth only about 1/3 of it's original purchase price, and it does not matter what the identical cooktop costs today. Given that the scratch does not affect operation, a Judge is liable to reduce the tenant charge to half of that 1/3!
- Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes3y
Kar sun. I hear you. I agree with you. This is not a run of the mill apartment. It's a nice place. AND maybe that is the problem. IF you give tenants nice things you will be heartbroken. That is the business. They dont't care. I suggest maybe you put in a used stove and keep the nice one for yourself. After 4 years I would expect to paint anyway, and a judge would probably say the same thing. In my experience, most tenants are mediocre, its rare that you find one that is meticulous and careful with your property. You should have pictures of the stove before and after, just in case he takes you to court. Try to relax and accept their imperfections. Take it out of the deposit if you have to, and provide a receipt for the expenses, and move on. Like you, I self manage, I'm very attached to my properties, those remodels are my hard work. But you have to let it go or it will drive you crazy. You're successful. Treat yourself to a nice dinner. Raise those rents as high as you can! Good luck.
- 3yKar SunMember since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votesOP
Quote from @Henry T.:
Kar sun. I hear you. I agree with you. This is not a run of the mill apartment. It's a nice place. AND maybe that is the problem. IF you give tenants nice things you will be heartbroken. That is the business. They dont't care. I suggest maybe you put in a used stove and keep the nice one for yourself. After 4 years I would expect to paint anyway, and a judge would probably say the same thing. In my experience, most tenants are mediocre, its rare that you find one that is meticulous and careful with your property. You should have pictures of the stove before and after, just in case he takes you to court. Try to relax and accept their imperfections. Take it out of the deposit if you have to, and provide a receipt for the expenses, and move on. Like you, I self manage, I'm very attached to my properties, those remodels are my hard work. But you have to let it go or it will drive you crazy. You're successful. Treat yourself to a nice dinner. Raise those rents as high as you can! Good luck.
Thanks.
I think the wall is a no brainer. The holes were huge. These were gaping holes, not just nail holes. He patched them up but he expects me to paint over his patching. So I have a taupe wall with white patches all over it. I don’t think I have to do it. I will hire a professional and will take it out of his deposit. I have the photos to prove everything. As far as the stove he damaged it. I have the photos to prove. Also my contract states that a tenant responsible for all appliances. Appliances are the tenant’s responsibly to keep things fair because I don’t provide cheap appliances. It is in a contract. Additionally I contacted a repair person as I have a home warranty. However they declined to fix it stating that this falls under “vandalism “ since it was a tenant s negligence. I will also deduct it. - 3yKar SunMember since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votesOP
Quote from @Richard F.:
Aloha,
It does not matter what you, or I, consider "normal wear and tear". It only matters how the local courts view it...some are more tenant friendly, some are not. It also does not matter if you feel the scratched stove top was 100% one day, and trash the next...again it will only matter how the Judge looks at it.
In my experience, for the paint issue, these days it is simple enough to get "computer matched" paint that will blend properly in the middle of the wall; or, as another poster mentioned, you can just paint one wall, corner to corner, after properly patching the mounting holes. Not a huge deal.
The point the other poster was making regarding the life span vs. age, again, in my experience, Judges always look at items that you are able to depreciate each year in exactly that manner. IRS has tables that will tell you the depreciation period for various elements. Appliances are 5 year items, generally. Your 3 year old cooktop is worth only about 1/3 of it's original purchase price, and it does not matter what the identical cooktop costs today. Given that the scratch does not affect operation, a Judge is liable to reduce the tenant charge to half of that 1/3!
Having gaping holes is not a depreciation item. I don’t have to paint. I am not required to paint. I have a right to hire a professional. Additionally my contract specifically states that all the appliances are tenants responsibility. Do I need to make anything else clear? Or am I not clear enough?
- 3yDan H.Pro MemberInvestor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
Quote from @Theresa Harris:
He can expect you to paint it and charge him for it. You have to paint the one wall.
It may cost $800 to replace the top, but if the life span of the stove is 10 years and it is 6 years old, you can only charge him for 40% of it. If it is a small scratch (ie not deep), I wouldn't worry about it.
It doesn't matter how much money he has or had, what matters is what is excessive wear and tear.
In my market, in your example I can spend up to 40% of the stove to repair or replace it. It is not that I can only charge him 40% of the repair cost. If that was the case you might as well replace the stove.
In this case because he states the stove is new, there will not be significant depreciation from age.
My view is I expect to spot paint upon move out and would either not charge (likely for a 4 year tenant) or token charge such as $25 for painting the tv mount area. However, I would charge for a new cooktop. It was new at move-in, is not normal wear or tear, can not be repaired. I would charge this tenant $798 total (only for the cooktop).
@Kar Sun
If I had a nickel for every time I been threatened with law suit, I would have a lot of nickels. I have never been sued for RE. I think if you are fair with your charges there is bp virtually zero chance you get sued. If you did get sued, how could tenant make a case that scratching a new stove’s cooktop is normal wear and tear (it is not).Good luck
- 3yKar SunMember since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votesOPThanks.
Quote from @Dan H.:
Quote from @Theresa Harris:
He can expect you to paint it and charge him for it. You have to paint the one wall.
It may cost $800 to replace the top, but if the life span of the stove is 10 years and it is 6 years old, you can only charge him for 40% of it. If it is a small scratch (ie not deep), I wouldn't worry about it.
It doesn't matter how much money he has or had, what matters is what is excessive wear and tear.
In my market, in your example I can spend up to 40% of the stove to repair or replace it. It is not that I can only charge him 40% of the repair cost. If that was the case you might as well replace the stove.
In this case because he states the stove is new, there will not be significant depreciation from age.
My view is I expect to spot paint upon move out and would either not charge (likely for a 4 year tenant) or token charge such as $25 for painting the tv mount area. However, I would charge for a new cooktop. It was new at move-in, is not normal wear or tear, can not be repaired. I would charge this tenant $798 total (only for the cooktop).
@Kar Sun
If I had a nickel for every time I been threatened with law suit, I would have a lot of nickels. I have never been sued for RE. I think if you are fair with your charges there is bp virtually zero chance you get sued. If you did get sued, how could tenant make a case that scratching a new stove’s cooktop is normal wear and tear (it is not).Good luck
I appreciate real life stories and not hypotheticals.
yes, he will get charged.
i am not worried about his law suit.
I will charge him for the wall as well.
it cannot be spotted painted.
he literally had patched up gaping holes that he wants me to repaint because he knows that the unprofessional job will look very bad. This is in a prominent place right above a fireplace.
as a lesson learned no other tenant will be allowed to have a wall mount for their tvs.
so hopefully tenants will learn that when they do crappy things they will have to deal with the tighter rules. - 3yDan H.Pro MemberInvestor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
Quote from @Kar Sun:
Thanks.Quote from @Dan H.:
Quote from @Theresa Harris:
He can expect you to paint it and charge him for it. You have to paint the one wall.
It may cost $800 to replace the top, but if the life span of the stove is 10 years and it is 6 years old, you can only charge him for 40% of it. If it is a small scratch (ie not deep), I wouldn't worry about it.
It doesn't matter how much money he has or had, what matters is what is excessive wear and tear.
In my market, in your example I can spend up to 40% of the stove to repair or replace it. It is not that I can only charge him 40% of the repair cost. If that was the case you might as well replace the stove.
In this case because he states the stove is new, there will not be significant depreciation from age.
My view is I expect to spot paint upon move out and would either not charge (likely for a 4 year tenant) or token charge such as $25 for painting the tv mount area. However, I would charge for a new cooktop. It was new at move-in, is not normal wear or tear, can not be repaired. I would charge this tenant $798 total (only for the cooktop).
@Kar Sun
If I had a nickel for every time I been threatened with law suit, I would have a lot of nickels. I have never been sued for RE. I think if you are fair with your charges there is bp virtually zero chance you get sued. If you did get sued, how could tenant make a case that scratching a new stove’s cooktop is normal wear and tear (it is not).Good luck
I appreciate real life stories and not hypotheticals.
yes, he will get charged.
i am not worried about his law suit.
I will charge him for the wall as well.
it cannot be spotted painted.
he literally had patched up gaping holes that he wants me to repaint because he knows that the unprofessional job will look very bad. This is in a prominent place right above a fireplace.
as a lesson learned no other tenant will be allowed to have a wall mount for their tvs.
so hopefully tenants will learn that when they do crappy things they will have to deal with the tighter rules.Why do you believe it can not be spot painted? If his patches are bad, then they may need to be fixed. If the holes are big, prime first as even with good paint it will take 2 coats anyways. I have some high end rentals that I spot paint. I would think only if there is paint fading could you not spot paint and if it has fading then it is time to paint the entire wall
You can forbid them from mounting their tvs, but especially in high end rentals this could cost you tenants. In my house I have 5 mounted tvs and only one not mounted tv.
Good luck
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes3y
Quote from @Kar Sun:
99% of Tenant threats are just attempts to scare you. If you can justify the charges and have documentation, don't worry about it. Charge the Tenant, send the remainder with an itemized list of deductions per state law, and then shut off communication. The Tenant will decide if they are going to take you to court or let it go. If they take you to court, you have the option of attempting to settle outside of court or take your chances with the judge.
It's part of the business. Don't take it personally and don't let it get under your skin. Those are pretty minor damages after four years of occupancy.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - 3yKar SunMember since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votesOPIt is protruding from the main and has a gas fireplace. The large windows sit opposite of it. So you basically can see all the touch ups that would be done to it. The hole thing has to be repainted. It is also not white, but a specific taupe color. The paint is 4 years old. Even if matched the new paint will still be visible as spots. Remember these are gaping holes that were patched. Not small nail holes. It won’t look well aesthetically. I am ok with a smaller pool of tenants. I cut many candidates anyways.
Quote from @Dan H.:
Quote from @Kar Sun:
Thanks.Quote from @Dan H.:
Quote from @Theresa Harris:
He can expect you to paint it and charge him for it. You have to paint the one wall.
It may cost $800 to replace the top, but if the life span of the stove is 10 years and it is 6 years old, you can only charge him for 40% of it. If it is a small scratch (ie not deep), I wouldn't worry about it.
It doesn't matter how much money he has or had, what matters is what is excessive wear and tear.
In my market, in your example I can spend up to 40% of the stove to repair or replace it. It is not that I can only charge him 40% of the repair cost. If that was the case you might as well replace the stove.
In this case because he states the stove is new, there will not be significant depreciation from age.
My view is I expect to spot paint upon move out and would either not charge (likely for a 4 year tenant) or token charge such as $25 for painting the tv mount area. However, I would charge for a new cooktop. It was new at move-in, is not normal wear or tear, can not be repaired. I would charge this tenant $798 total (only for the cooktop).
@Kar Sun
If I had a nickel for every time I been threatened with law suit, I would have a lot of nickels. I have never been sued for RE. I think if you are fair with your charges there is bp virtually zero chance you get sued. If you did get sued, how could tenant make a case that scratching a new stove’s cooktop is normal wear and tear (it is not).Good luck
I appreciate real life stories and not hypotheticals.
yes, he will get charged.
i am not worried about his law suit.
I will charge him for the wall as well.
it cannot be spotted painted.
he literally had patched up gaping holes that he wants me to repaint because he knows that the unprofessional job will look very bad. This is in a prominent place right above a fireplace.
as a lesson learned no other tenant will be allowed to have a wall mount for their tvs.
so hopefully tenants will learn that when they do crappy things they will have to deal with the tighter rules.Why do you believe it can not be spot painted? If his patches are bad, then they may need to be fixed. If the holes are big, prime first as even with good paint it will take 2 coats anyways. I have some high end rentals that I spot paint. I would think only if there is paint fading could you not spot paint and if it has fading then it is time to paint the entire wall
You can forbid them from mounting their tvs, but especially in high end rentals this could cost you tenants. In my house I have 5 mounted tvs and only one not mounted tv.
Good luck
- Real Estate Agent · Omaha, NE · Member since 2021 · 21 posts · 15 votes3y
If he has been there for 4 years and it is only a wall that needs to be painted and some scratches on the stove I would consider that a win! I think I take pretty good care of my primary residence but in 4 years I would expect at least that much damage just from normal wear and tear.
I don’t think a few hundred dollars are worth the mental energy being spent. What is your time and peace of mind worth? - 3yKar SunMember since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votesOP
Quote from @Ryan Miller:
If he has been there for 4 years and it is only a wall that needs to be painted and some scratches on the stove I would consider that a win! I think I take pretty good care of my primary residence but in 4 years I would expect at least that much damage just from normal wear and tear.
I don’t think a few hundred dollars are worth the mental energy being spent. What is your time and peace of mind worth?The damages will be about $800 for the stove and probably about $500 to have it repainted.
i am a small time landlord.
i am at peace and will charge him.
He can take me to court.
I will show all the documents, photos, lease contract.
i am not worried.
he should be the one worried.
I cannot afford to lose this much money if every four years tenants will do it.
he signed a contract.
I have no clue why I am the one who needs to absorb the costs.
if it was $300 I would let it go.
I also don’t see why having him for 4 years gives him the right to damage my property .If you rent a car you sign a contract.
you can keep your rental for a year if you want to.
But if you return it with a damage and scratches they will charge you.
it doesn’t matter to them that you kept it for 1 week or 1 year.
I have no idea why landlords feel they have to fix at their costs.
my case is pretty simple.
I have all the proof and the contract that he signed.
that simple. - Real Estate Agent · Omaha, NE · Member since 2021 · 21 posts · 15 votes3y
As long as you feel this is worth the time and effort then more power to you. How much was the security deposit?
- 3yKar SunMember since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votesOP$4000
Quote from @Ryan Miller:
As long as you feel this is worth the time and effort then more power to you. How much was the security deposit?
- Real Estate Agent · Denver CO · Member since 2019 · 209 posts · 332 votes3y
Couple of thoughts that have worked for me in the past in a similiar situation.
1) Will a TV just be mounted again on the wall? If so, leave as is or buy a wall mount and permanently attach it to the wall for the next tenant. Also shop around for some TVs, they're pretty cheap these days. You might be able to just but a TV and wall mount for $1K that stays with the property vs. spending $1K painting the wall. This could solve your problem long term.
2) If a TV won't be mounted, ask your new tenants (when you have them) what they plan on doing with the wall? I've given out gift cards for wall art that can cover up the blemishes or send them a link to wall art and ask them what they like best and you'll buy it. Spend $150-$300 on wall art vs. $1K painting the wall. The tenants will love you bc they have get free wall art they get to take with them.
Basically, save painting the wall for when it's a larger job and multiple walls/rooms. Much cheaper that way.
- 3yKar SunMember since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votesOP
Quote from @Marcus R.:
Couple of thoughts that have worked for me in the past in a similiar situation.
1) Will a TV just be mounted again on the wall? If so, leave as is or buy a wall mount and permanently attach it to the wall for the next tenant. Also shop around for some TVs, they're pretty cheap these days. You might be able to just but a TV and wall mount for $1K that stays with the property vs. spending $1K painting the wall. This could solve your problem long term.
2) If a TV won't be mounted, ask your new tenants (when you have them) what they plan on doing with the wall? I've given out gift cards for wall art that can cover up the blemishes or send them a link to wall art and ask them what they like best and you'll buy it. Spend $150-$300 on wall art vs. $1K painting the wall. The tenants will love you bc they have get free wall art they get to take with them.
Basically, save painting the wall for when it's a larger job and multiple walls/rooms. Much cheaper that way.
He told me that he will leave it on. And I agreed.
However, when he was out I accessed the place with the proper notification and I saw the mount completely removed and huge wall patches.
I think he either removed the old mount completely or was in a process of adding a new cheaper mount which obviously had different configuration so he had to patch the wall.
he is really a type of a person that will slip a dishonesty here and there and I experienced it many times.
he would turn the AC to 67 when it was 100 outside and after unit would malfunction would change back to 72 and claim the unit is bad.
he would do it when he would go on a trip which he did often is summer.
now that he moved out the thermostat is on 73 and it is 100 outside and there is no issues at all.
he also had his girlfriend live with him although he claimed he was the only one.
he was always very particular about 24 hours notice that is how I know he was doing something he wasn’t supposed to.
he is definitely dishonest but he was paying on time and relatively clean.
I know about the temperature settings because at the start of his lease he told me he likes the AC set below 68 in summer.
this time around my contract actually has a temperature setting the tenant must follow. And I will probably get a different thermostat because If they want to live in a north pole my unit is not for them. - 3yTravis BohlingBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2011 · 65 posts · 78 votes
You seem unsettled by this. Imagine the angst you will have if this goes to court. Peace of mind is worth a lot in the end. Maybe for you, being a landlord isn't worth the toll.
- 3yGreg ScottPro MemberRental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votesThat dog won't hunt.
Quote from @Kar Sun:
this time around my contract actually has a temperature setting the tenant must follow
Honestly, this doesn't sound like the business for you. You should consider selling.
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.