Remote owner challenge with Rentals getting consistently trashed

Kansas City, Kansas
General Landlording & Rental Properties
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Remote owner challenge with Rentals getting consistently trashed

Raul Sai P
Homeowner · OR · Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 4 votes

Some background - Around 5-6 years ago, I was getting decent tenants for the most part and a pretty good PM company to manage the rentals in MO state. 

While I understand that it is part of the game to have a rental property trashed every once in a while, I am currently facing a situation where pretty much all of my 3-4 homes are getting severely trashed every year. I am talking of move-out repairs around $9000-$12000 in damages for each property, which obviously goes way beyond the security deposit. It costs $2000 to just remove the piles of trash before I can fix the rental. There is not a single aspect that's not trashed with intentional damages like big holes in walls, intentionally ripping out carpets, trashing new appliances, kids drawing in all rooms, broken doors, window shades, screen doors, lost garage and fireplace remotes etc. Most Tenants do not even stick around for the move-out inspection. These damages are so extensive that it's wiped out years of breakeven cost that I initially managed to get. Plus $10K is a significant loss when the house itself is in the $200K range.

My challenge is that I am a remote owner and cannot visit my rentals every month so I have limited options. The original PM company was  acquired by a bigger one a few years ago and takes care of everything from getting tenants/screening them to collecting rent, repairs etc.  This PM company does follow a good screening process: credit check (with a score of 550 or higher however if lower PM company will not decline solely based on the credit score itself), rental/mortgage history, employment/income verification of 3 times the amount of rent, and a criminal background check. The approval is made on a combination of these 4 items.

One option that I tried was to sign up for six-month inspection at additional cost from the PM company but that did not help. The PM company does send the damage bill to Tenant, notice through a lawyer and follows all the process for collections, but I am yet to see a cent back.

I am hoping to explore some options and ideas from the fellow community especially in the MO area.

- Any screening process that you follow differently to improve tenant quality?

- Any options or recommendation for a PM company (ability to find good tenants and recover some damages from tenant in the worst case)

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Rosalind Pistilli
Investor · CO · Member since 2023 · 7 posts · 14 votes
2y

I would be looking for a different property management company as soon as possible. I would also be traveling to the area once a year to do my own walk-throughs. You've indicated you live in Kansas and the property is in Missouri, that should be a manageable trip to take once a year, walk through, inspect all of your properties and be present. To me, the property management company is taking advantage of you being absent. Scheduling a walk-through once a year will cause both the management company and the renters to be on alert. 

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  • Mark Cruse
    Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @James Wise:
    Quote from @Mark Cruse:

    There are some suggesting raising the credit score. If the neighborhood is close to what he is indicating, raising that score wont work. Many of those tenants are there for a reason. Doesnt make them bad people but most are in bad situations with little stability. If they had those higher scores most likely they would not be trying to live there. 


     You make it sound like people get a bad credit score by accident. You get a bad credit score because you borrow money or services and then don't pay it back. That's not someone in a bad situation, that's someone who is dishonest who's made a series of bad life choices.


     I looked you up a bit and I understand you leanings or where you mindset comes from.  That is going to be the case no matter what with you and I sincerely doubt you could ever be receptive to anything else. If you feel there is no existence of life situations and everyone in these areas as you so colorfully alluded to so far are savages and animals, dishonest would probably be the best thing you could ever say about them anyway.  

    1Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @James Wise:
    Quote from @Henry T.:

    Sorry, but 550 credit rating is for criminals. I've always been 720 and above. I'm now 750. The one time I took a 550 I ended up with a trashed house. 10k in damages.  I've had damages from 720's but it does get worse the lower you go.


     When you're in the hood, you're not gonna get a lot of 700+ credit scores.


    location location location.. my west coast props I am at 700 fico and above takes a minute but its worth the one month extra to rent it.  back east you have to play to the hand your dealt, or where you chose to buy.. all cities have great areas where you can expect the 700 plus renter and they all have areas were credit score is meaningless and rates of return as an owner will on paper vary by area. its all risk reward.  No mystery to it.
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    1Reply
  • Julien J.
    Investor · CO · Member since 2016 · 757 posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    @Raul Sai P

    You've got the right idea. Find a new PM or increase your screening criteria.

    3Reply
  • Ned J.Pro Member
    Investor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    Its one of 2 things....

    Your PM sucks....... their screening sucks....

    Or the neighborhood has gone all to hell since you first bought the unit and no one half decent really wants to live there anymore. Consequently your class of tenant pool went WAY down compared to what it used to be. Its time to go back and look at the location NOW and not assume everything around your unit is still the same. It may have been a B neighborhood and now its a C/D.....if thats the case, the PM change may not completely solve your issues

    1Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Ned J.:

    Its one of 2 things....

    Your PM sucks....... their screening sucks....

    Or the neighborhood has gone all to hell since you first bought the unit and no one half decent really wants to live there anymore. Consequently your class of tenant pool went WAY down compared to what it used to be. Its time to go back and look at the location NOW and not assume everything around your unit is still the same. It may have been a B neighborhood and now its a C/D.....if thats the case, the PM change may not completely solve your issues

     It's pretty easy to determine if it's the neighborhood. What's the unit rent for? Under $1k/mo & you're probably in the hood.

    0Reply
  • Todd Jones
    Member since 2023 · 243 posts · 199 votes
    2y

    Bad credit didn’t mean bad person or someone who makes bad choices.

    Remember, a credit score is determined by several factors, not just late payments or debt-to-income ratio. Your score could be low if you are a “cash is king” person with no credit history or if you co-signed and the other individual had an accident or if you had an accident or if you get laid off from your job or a combination of these use cases.

    Problem is, you don’t know why their credit is low. A higher score simply reduces risk of missed payments. It isn’t a strong metric to determine if they will not act foolish and trash the place.

    Overall:

    (1) Visit the neighborhood. What changed? A big company supplying jobs left? New mayor or city council who just don’t care? Roads getting bad? When stuff like this happens, you get folks moving in that turn to vices to feel better and care less of their surroundings.

    (2) Switch to another PM. Seriously. I assume the quotes for repairs came from them. The company that took over your OM may up-charged the repairs even more. It sounds like they did some background checks but their results aren’t stellar.

    (3) Do regular checkups yourself. I had to visit my California home at least once a year and it was worth it as my PM was BM.

    4Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Todd Jones:

    Bad credit didn’t mean bad person or someone who makes bad choices.

    Remember, a credit score is determined by several factors, not just late payments or debt-to-income ratio. Your score could be low if you are a “cash is king” person with no credit history or if you co-signed and the other individual had an accident or if you had an accident or if you get laid off from your job or a combination of these use cases.

    Problem is, you don’t know why their credit is low. A higher score simply reduces risk of missed payments. It isn’t a strong metric to determine if they will not act foolish and trash the place.

    Overall:

    (1) Visit the neighborhood. What changed? A big company supplying jobs left? New mayor or city council who just don’t care? Roads getting bad? When stuff like this happens, you get folks moving in that turn to vices to feel better and care less of their surroundings.

    (2) Switch to another PM. Seriously. I assume the quotes for repairs came from them. The company that took over your OM may up-charged the repairs even more. It sounds like they did some background checks but their results aren’t stellar.

    (3) Do regular checkups yourself. I had to visit my California home at least once a year and it was worth it as my PM was BM.


     Terrible take. I could not disagree with you more. A credit score is absolutely a reflection of how responsible, or irresponsible, someone is.

    2Reply
  • Carlos Ptriawan
    Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @James Wise:
    Quote from @Todd Jones:

    Bad credit didn’t mean bad person or someone who makes bad choices.

    (3) Do regular checkups yourself. I had to visit my California home at least once a year and it was worth it as my PM was BM.


     Terrible take. I could not disagree with you more. A credit score is absolutely a reflection of how responsible, or irresponsible, someone is.


     when I ask my tenant I ask their job rather than their credit score , if they don't have credit score and they work hard that could be my potential tenant LOL

    but well yes this country is different as everything is credit score. Single medical bill can wipe out people credit score.

    3Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @James Wise:
    Quote from @Todd Jones:

    Bad credit didn’t mean bad person or someone who makes bad choices.

    (3) Do regular checkups yourself. I had to visit my California home at least once a year and it was worth it as my PM was BM.


     Terrible take. I could not disagree with you more. A credit score is absolutely a reflection of how responsible, or irresponsible, someone is.


     when I ask my tenant I ask their job rather than their credit score , if they don't have credit score and they work hard that could be my potential tenant LOL

    but well yes this country is different as everything is credit score. Single medical bill can wipe out people credit score.

     When you're screening a tenant it's not credit score or nothing. However, if you don't think reviewing a tenant's credit report is important, you're doing your screening wrong. What's on that report gives you a great indication into how responsible, or irresponsible, the potential tenant is.

    2Reply
  • Mark Cruse
    Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @James Wise:
    Quote from @Todd Jones:

    Bad credit didn’t mean bad person or someone who makes bad choices.

    (3) Do regular checkups yourself. I had to visit my California home at least once a year and it was worth it as my PM was BM.


     Terrible take. I could not disagree with you more. A credit score is absolutely a reflection of how responsible, or irresponsible, someone is.


     when I ask my tenant I ask their job rather than their credit score , if they don't have credit score and they work hard that could be my potential tenant LOL

    but well yes this country is different as everything is credit score. Single medical bill can wipe out people credit score.


    Yes, it all depends on several things. When I did primarily class D it was no point in asking because anyone coming there most likely had bad credit. Clearly it's isnt a 100 percent determining factor because I've had several where I assumed they had bad credit but were great tenants. The most important factors in the hood is making sure you dont have criminals or transient minded individuals with zero stability. First I size them up in person and see if I detect any red flags. Then I thoroughly evaluate criminal history. If that checks out they must have a verified history in their jobs and demonstrate a sense of stability. If they have some form of history paying rent somewhere else over a sustained period of time and can prove on multiple levels they can maintain themselves, I approve them. I thoroughly check those references as well. I went out on a limb about 5 years ago and rented to people with sht credit and no verifiable example of stability. Other things checked out here and there but the references pushed them over. From what I saw they were on the lower scales of society and just needed a break. I dont recommend others take this kind of risk because I was nervous, but they, pound for pound have been the 100 percent best tenants I've had in any class property I have owned. In my STR, the white collar executive with A plus credit stiffed me out of a month and got me fined because her jack *** son continued to smoke weed in there.

    4Reply
  • Tricia O'Brien
    Investor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2015 · 267 posts · 76 votes
    2y

    You need to screen tenant applicants better, and it might take 2 months on the market to find a decent tenant.  Find a PM company that will do this or you need to screen tenant applicants yourself. I have a class C house in a class D neighborhood in Indiana. The current fair market value of the home is about $60K.  My minimum screening criteria are:  credit score at least 600, gross income at least 3.5x the rent, no evictions.  My current tenant (just moved in last month) and my previous tenant all had credit scores of at least 650.  I screen the tenant applicants myself, and I live 3000 miles away from the property.  I have a local realtor who does showings and other tasks for me. 

    The PM company might be ripping you off regarding the repairs. How do you know it really needed $10K in work?  Do they have maintenance people on staff that they pay $20/hour plus medical benefits but then they bill you $60/hour for their work? That can be a huge source of revenue for the PM company. 

    Good luck! 

    1Reply
  • Raul Sai P
    OP
    Homeowner · OR · Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 4 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Tien Pham:

    Hi @Raul Sai P,

    My name is Tien. I'm located in KCMO and am also an active buy-and-hold investor in both KCMO and KCK areas. I manage 12 units by myself. I completely relate with you regarding the headaches of dealing with tenants who have no regard for our properties. I'm currently helping my friends from CA to invest in the rental market in KC and also help them manage their properties. Let's connect to see if there are any values I can provide to you.


     Thanks for your response. I would love to connect and learn more. Please do reach out via DM. 

    0Reply
  • Tien Pham
    Member since 2020 · 2 posts · 5 votes
    2y

    Sent a connect request

    1Reply
  • Raul Sai P
    OP
    Homeowner · OR · Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 4 votes
    2y
    Quote from @James Wise:
    Quote from @Mark Cruse:

    There are some suggesting raising the credit score. If the neighborhood is close to what he is indicating, raising that score wont work. Many of those tenants are there for a reason. Doesnt make them bad people but most are in bad situations with little stability. If they had those higher scores most likely they would not be trying to live there. 


     You make it sound like people get a bad credit score by accident. You get a bad credit score because you borrow money or services and then don't pay it back. That's not someone in a bad situation, that's someone who is dishonest who's made a series of bad life choices.


     Exactly this. It hurt me that these were tenants that I cared for and yet that meant nothing to them. After the Covid restrictions were removed, I still gave some leeway (time) when these tenants were late in paying rent. However the way they chose to leave the referigerator door open along with food in eat and tear up the carpets, and color all over the wall with crayons indicate people who deliberatly choose to make wrong choices.  

    0Reply
  • Raul Sai P
    OP
    Homeowner · OR · Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 4 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @James Wise:
    Quote from @Henry T.:

    Sorry, but 550 credit rating is for criminals. I've always been 720 and above. I'm now 750. The one time I took a 550 I ended up with a trashed house. 10k in damages.  I've had damages from 720's but it does get worse the lower you go.


     When you're in the hood, you're not gonna get a lot of 700+ credit scores.


    location location location.. my west coast props I am at 700 fico and above takes a minute but its worth the one month extra to rent it.  back east you have to play to the hand your dealt, or where you chose to buy.. all cities have great areas where you can expect the 700 plus renter and they all have areas were credit score is meaningless and rates of return as an owner will on paper vary by area. its all risk reward.  No mystery to it.

     Agreed. it does depend on the area and you have to play the hand dealt. That's why I am trying to find a PMC that is more proactive to reduce some of the risks. 

    0Reply
  • Raul Sai P
    OP
    Homeowner · OR · Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 4 votes
    2y
    Quote from @James Wise:
    Quote from @Ned J.:

    Its one of 2 things....

    Your PM sucks....... their screening sucks....

    Or the neighborhood has gone all to hell since you first bought the unit and no one half decent really wants to live there anymore. Consequently your class of tenant pool went WAY down compared to what it used to be. Its time to go back and look at the location NOW and not assume everything around your unit is still the same. It may have been a B neighborhood and now its a C/D.....if thats the case, the PM change may not completely solve your issues

     It's pretty easy to determine if it's the neighborhood. What's the unit rent for? Under $1k/mo & you're probably in the hood.


     The rent is in the $1100-$1200 range so it is probably close to the hood as you said :-(

    0Reply
  • Raul Sai P
    OP
    Homeowner · OR · Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 4 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Tricia O'Brien:

    You need to screen tenant applicants better, and it might take 2 months on the market to find a decent tenant.  Find a PM company that will do this or you need to screen tenant applicants yourself. I have a class C house in a class D neighborhood in Indiana. The current fair market value of the home is about $60K.  My minimum screening criteria are:  credit score at least 600, gross income at least 3.5x the rent, no evictions.  My current tenant (just moved in last month) and my previous tenant all had credit scores of at least 650.  I screen the tenant applicants myself, and I live 3000 miles away from the property.  I have a local realtor who does showings and other tasks for me. 

    The PM company might be ripping you off regarding the repairs. How do you know it really needed $10K in work?  Do they have maintenance people on staff that they pay $20/hour plus medical benefits but then they bill you $60/hour for their work? That can be a huge source of revenue for the PM company. 

    Good luck! 

    I do get estimates from others when the cost is high and it is in the same ballpark range (+/-5-10%). The biggest cost comes from paint ($2-3K), carpet replacement ($2-$3K) and $1K for trash (broken furniture etc.). I would be ok if the full house painting and carpet replacement is because of wear and tear but when I have to do it because of kids drawing all over the house with crayons and tearing up carpets and doors, then it is a deliberate intent. 
    1Reply
  • Raul Sai P
    OP
    Homeowner · OR · Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 4 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Raul Sai P:

    Some background - Around 5-6 years ago, I was getting decent tenants for the most part and a pretty good PM company to manage the rentals in MO state. 

    What zip code? 

     This is for 64015 and 64050 (mostly Kansas City and Independence)

    0Reply
  • Raul Sai P
    OP
    Homeowner · OR · Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 4 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Caleb Brown:

    What area are they in? There is a some rough spots in KC. Having a great PM would help limit bad tenants but if the area stinks then there's not much you can do


     It is mostly 64015 and 64050(Kansas City and Independence)

    0Reply
  • Raul Sai P
    OP
    Homeowner · OR · Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 4 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Steve K.:

    Part of the difference between before and now might be explainable by how much labor and material costs have increased during the last few years, and it sounds like the change in management ownership has been a change for the worse. But it's also a bit par for the course when investing in certain areas remotely, while depending entirely on a management company that due to low margins needs to have hundreds of units under management as well as automate everything as much as possible in order to stay afloat/ earn a decent profit. Something is definitely off beyond these factors however because you shouldn't be seeing that much turnover and those turnover costs are absurd. I could see a major turnover expense running up to that range if the property hadn't had a make-ready in 15-20 years, but not after just a year or two, that's obviously not sustainable. You must be losing a ton of money on these properties as I can't imagine rents are sufficient to cover these expenses. 

    My first thought would be to sell and 1031 into better properties in a better location. But if you want to try and turn things around before doing that, I'd get a new manager and be a part of the screening process more. Have them run every prospective tenant that they recommend approving by you before final approval. 550 is a terrible credit score, and if that's the best you can do in that area then I'd definitely consider selling and looking into a better location. 620 is the minimum my PM uses, along with income at 2-3X rent, no prior evictions, good rental history and references, consistent work history in a decent career, etc. and once approved they send the info they've gathered to me and I do a little sleuthing on my own (check them out online, social media etc. anything I can find). I also have my PM do quarterly inspections, and it's worth the nominal fee they charge for that. You can also probably "harden" your units more by using different materials that are more tenant-proof, such a LVP flooring, use 1x4 wall cleats mounted on the studs for towel racks, door stoppers, only the necessary appliances for your market, semi-gloss paint and the same color throughout, simple or no landscaping, remove screen doors and replace with plexiglass, remove as many things that break as possible, remove any pull chords on fans and blinds that tenants always break, etc. Do a better job with turn overs addressing these issues fully instead of bandaid on top of bandaid like many landlords tend to do. 

    However, all of these efforts may be in vain if your properties are in a location where good tenants wouldn't want to live and good PM's don't want to manage. I suspect location may be your underlying issue. What you're probably seeing is the difference between cashflow via spreadsheet magic vs. reality. Low value properties can provide wonderful cashflow in theory, but the low rents that go along with low values often can't support the baseline expenses required to operate a rental property. Paying more for a property in a better location with less initial cashflow usually leads to better overall returns as the years go by. 

    Great input on "hardening" your units. I was doing the LVP and semi-gloss paint, but I will be borrowing some of your other ideas. Thanks !!









    You can also probably "harden" your units






    0Reply
  • Raul Sai P
    OP
    Homeowner · OR · Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 4 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Milton Chamberlain:

    Frank Lewis- 816 890 9800 (business line)

    Leave him a message and he should get back to you. He hosts the KC Northland Real estate monthly meetup. stand up guy. I refer most of my KC investors to him, and no complaints yet.

    I get it, there is a cost of doing business, and I have paid my fair share of move out repairs, but 9-12k?! I understand the damage was extensive, but *big whistle* that's pretty steep for repairs and refinishing, especially when considering it was not a 'one-off' and has been consistent with all your properties.

    Most I have ever paid was around 2k, and while the property was not demo'd, it was banged up pretty good by teens who broke in while it was vacant and threw a party and 'vandalised' it, requiring patches, replaced doors, new carpet, repaired cabinets, repainted walls, etc (this was in Columbia MO)

    Thanks for the referral, I will ping Frank and check. 
    0Reply
  • Raul Sai P
    OP
    Homeowner · OR · Member since 2022 · 19 posts · 4 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Raul Sai P:

    Some background - Around 5-6 years ago, I was getting decent tenants for the most part and a pretty good PM company to manage the rentals in MO state. 

    What zip code? 


     64015 and 64050

    0Reply
  • Carlos Ptriawan
    Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Raul Sai P:
    Quote from @Tricia O'Brien:

    You need to screen tenant applicants better, and it might take 2 months on the market to find a decent tenant.  Find a PM company that will do this or you need to screen tenant applicants yourself. I have a class C house in a class D neighborhood in Indiana. The current fair market value of the home is about $60K.  My minimum screening criteria are:  credit score at least 600, gross income at least 3.5x the rent, no evictions.  My current tenant (just moved in last month) and my previous tenant all had credit scores of at least 650.  I screen the tenant applicants myself, and I live 3000 miles away from the property.  I have a local realtor who does showings and other tasks for me. 

    The PM company might be ripping you off regarding the repairs. How do you know it really needed $10K in work?  Do they have maintenance people on staff that they pay $20/hour plus medical benefits but then they bill you $60/hour for their work? That can be a huge source of revenue for the PM company. 

    Good luck! 

    I do get estimates from others when the cost is high and it is in the same ballpark range (+/-5-10%). The biggest cost comes from paint ($2-3K), carpet replacement ($2-$3K) and $1K for trash (broken furniture etc.). I would be ok if the full house painting and carpet replacement is because of wear and tear but when I have to do it because of kids drawing all over the house with crayons and tearing up carpets and doors, then it is a deliberate intent. 

     man my cost is 25%-35% than yours, you've been ripped off

    0Reply
  • Carlos Ptriawan
    Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y

    another reason not to do passive investment, better buy local rental and we become the only PM.

    0Reply
  • Monique Rene Coates
    Member since 2023 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    2y
    Quote from @James Wise:
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @James Wise:
    Quote from @Todd Jones:

    Bad credit didn’t mean bad person or someone who makes bad choices.

    (3) Do regular checkups yourself. I had to visit my California home at least once a year and it was worth it as my PM was BM.


     Terrible take. I could not disagree with you more. A credit score is absolutely a reflection of how responsible, or irresponsible, someone is.


     when I ask my tenant I ask their job rather than their credit score , if they don't have credit score and they work hard that could be my potential tenant LOL

    but well yes this country is different as everything is credit score. Single medical bill can wipe out people credit score.

     When you're screening a tenant it's not credit score or nothing. However, if you don't think reviewing a tenant's credit report is important, you're doing your screening wrong. What's on that report gives you a great indication into how responsible, or irresponsible, the potential tenant is.


    Not necessarily! For EXAMPLE = I have absolutely $0 zero consumer debt and $0 zero credit cards, and $0 zero loans.
    In addition, all Student Loans are also PAID off! 

    Q. What do YOU think my FICO score would OR should be Sir? 🤔🤷🏻‍♀️

    2Reply
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