Would you keep this renter?

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Would you keep this renter?

Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

Tenant lives in a 2bed/1bath apartment. She was given two weeks to clean the place. She removed a lot of stuff, but this is the end result.

She is very nice, pays like clockwork, communicates well, and never fusses. 

Would you renew her lease, or terminate? Why?

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Jerry W.Pro Member
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Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
2y

The biggest problem with this tenant is actually not how they maintain the property, it's when they leave.  They will never be able to move all of this to their new address, and their damage deposit will never cover having to clean the place out.  Heaven forbid she gets a mouse or 2 in there, because suddenly you have 300 mice.  I have a hard time kicking folks out for any reason, but I let a kindly couple who hoarded food and other stuff and it took 3 weeks to haul everything out and get rid of mice.  It is hard to do because there is a mental illness issue here, but clean up or get out.  I hope things are going well for you other than this bud.  Stay warm.  It's 12 below zero here as I am typing this.

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  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y

    I would need to know more, but based off of what you gave me--yes. I would tell her keeping the cleanliness of the house is imperative, but let them know I value them. A tenant that pays 100% of the time & never fusses, I will put up with a lot of nonsense. She's got a hoarding problem, but if she can keep it trim or if that's what you consider trim, then that's fine.

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  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y

    The biggest problem with this tenant is actually not how they maintain the property, it's when they leave.  They will never be able to move all of this to their new address, and their damage deposit will never cover having to clean the place out.  Heaven forbid she gets a mouse or 2 in there, because suddenly you have 300 mice.  I have a hard time kicking folks out for any reason, but I let a kindly couple who hoarded food and other stuff and it took 3 weeks to haul everything out and get rid of mice.  It is hard to do because there is a mental illness issue here, but clean up or get out.  I hope things are going well for you other than this bud.  Stay warm.  It's 12 below zero here as I am typing this.

    8Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2y

    as long as its not full of rodents and bugs she just like living in a storage unit. :) Seen far worse .

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  • Scott Esmail
    Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2016 · 162 posts · 125 votes
    2y

    I would not, she sounds like a good tenant. She could live there for years and pay off much of your home. The worst case you would have to spend couple hundred or thousand extra over a regular move out rehab to clean up the extra stuff etc. That is a small price to pay for a good tenant who stayed a long time. Plus you can put a claim on her sec deposit to help pay some of the clean up. I would only enforce her to clean up outside if you get a violation from the city. If not leave as is and collect rent and @Jay Hinrichs mentioned as long as not full of rodent or bugs then I would leave as is.

    2Reply
  • Dawn P.
    Rental Property Investor · Sumter, SC · Member since 2015 · 334 posts · 531 votes
    2y

    I'd keep her but keep an eye on the mess. I've got one that looks really similar, she's been there 7 years and seems to be addicted to ordering from Amazon, lol.

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  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y

    @Nathan Gesner its the food factor. If she can't keep the food contained then the bugs and rodents can get into other units. So in an apartment if she can keep the food cleaning done and put out the trash alright.  Otherwise no. 

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  • Jonathan PfluegerPro Member
    Ben Lomond, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 337 votes
    2y

    I would keep her on a couple of conditions.

    1. Property management would need to complete a walkthrough every 60 days. In my experience this kind of thing can get out of hand very, very quickly.]

    2. Ensure that she has renters insurance in the event that she floods or burns her place down - depending on how attached she is to her belongings she may seek reimbursement from someone (probably you). Had similar situation with a tenant, not as bad but close, and they flooded their entire unit when their child decide to throw 30 wet wipes down the toilet. We require renters insurance so the tenant was covered and they got paid out for nearly all of their stacks of clothes, dolls, trinkets, and everything else that was stacked about. It took the restorations specialist something like two weeks to catalogue all of it.

    A consistent, own time tenant is a valuable thing and worth accommodating most of the time and a goof landlord or property management firm knows how to walk that line.

    2Reply
  • Ali Radoncic
    Lender · Dallas, TX · Member since 2017 · 100 posts · 57 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Nathan Gesner:

    Tenant lives in a 2bed/1bath apartment. She was given two weeks to clean the place. She removed a lot of stuff, but this is the end result.

    She is very nice, pays like clockwork, communicates well, and never fusses. 

    Would you renew her lease, or terminate? Why?


     My first knee jerk reaction is get her out of there haha.  We cant tell people how to "live" necessarily though right?  But if I want to stick to my original knee jerk emotional reaction and take it a bit further, im sure there is some kind of fire hazard there.  Now that is serious.

    1Reply
  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    2y

    I would keep her.  While she has a lot of stuff, she got rid of a lot as well.  I'd do regular inspections (3-6 months) to keep an eye on things.  But the place is clean, she pays on time and is low maintenance.

    Someone else mentioned when she goes, she may leave stuff behind and that may be true, but you'll be dealing with that now or 5 years down the road either way.

    2Reply
  • John MorganPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Grand Prairie, TX · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    Half of my tenants live like this. And they all seem like lifers that’ll be with me for years/decades. So I look the other way. lol

    1Reply
  • Michael SmytheBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Metro Detroit · Member since 2023 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2y

    Set boundaries/expectations, charge her for quarterly inspections, keep her if all met as she'll stay forever.

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  • Adam Martin
    Rental Property Investor · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    I would also need a before picture to have something to compare to but based off of these I'd say I'd keep them.  You specifically ask if I would renew them though and I wouldn't, however I'd let them stay m2m.  If issues come up I could non renew at any time and this would give me greater leverage if things were to deteriorate further, it isn't like you are worried they will leave with no long term lease.  There is a difference between filth and clutter and this just looks like they have a bunch of junk they can't let go for some reason.  If there was rotting food or trash everywhere I'd have a different story which is why the before would be helpful if that is what they got rid of they are out.  

    1Reply
  • Bud Gaffney
    Rental Property Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    Terminate 100%. TOO MUCH JUNK

    2Reply
  • Henry T.
    Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    Sadly the end result still gives me the willy's. This will not end well. I would want to see min half of this stuff gone. You want people to happy in their abode but this is too much, dangerous, and a nightmare to deal with on move out. Of course how you handle this you must tread lightly. When the rodents come it will be the landlords fault. But you are lucky. If you were in Seattle you could not end this lease or month/month, no options at all, and you would be stuck with this person until they are carried out.

    1Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    2y

    More background, and my decision.

    This is her third year. The unit does look better, but only because I've been on her about it. I have known many hoarders and they never get better. I know that if she stays, it will take a lot of effort to keep her under control.

    What if there's a maintenance issue? I can't access a lot of the space because it's so packed.

    What if she gets mice? It could be years before we know?

    She's costing me money. This is a tri-plex with a shared boiler. I pay the heating bill as part of their rent. She has so much stuff stacked against the radiators that the heat can't circulate, which is why she has electric space heaters everywhere. That increases the risk of fire.

    I've given her notice that we will not renew her lease. She has to be out in 90 days. I wish her well, but I don't want the additional work and risk that comes with a hoarder.

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  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y

    @Nathan Gesner didn't see the space heaters that would be a hard no for me.  At least she only used a horse border and didn't completely wallpaper.

    1Reply
  • John Mocker
    Insurance Agent · Norwalk, CT · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    Nathan,

    Sadly, this could turn into an Insurance issue for you.  If your current carrier inspects or if you try to change carriers, you may have issues.  We represent many carriers and we have been seeing them get more strict on guidelines and them become quicker to cancel/non-renew policies.  

    If an egress gets blocked by the stuff, who would get sued?  Since you know of the conditions, you would likey get drawn into it.  Is there more than one unit in that building?  Is so, does the clutter present a danger to other units (pests, fire, etc.).



    I would talk to your agent and see if this is going to be an issue.

    2Reply
  • Jonathan PfluegerPro Member
    Ben Lomond, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 337 votes
    2y

    @Nathan Gesner

    If only being a property manager or landlord was all butterflies and lollipops! Good on you for making the decision you did - bottom line, we have to make hard decisions every day with the data we have stacked against our own experience and professionalism. 

    I am assuming this is a home you have under property management? If so, as an investor I would be happy with the decision you made. We can't always make the exception, if we do, the exception becomes the rule and then we are all in a world of s!#t. 

    1Reply
  • Leo R.
    Investor · Member since 2021 · 591 posts · 695 votes
    2y

    @Nathan Gesner it seems like all this stuff could be a lease violation in several ways (depending on how your lease is set up). I think your best option is to have the tenant get a storage unit, so that they can greatly reduce the amount of stuff they're storing at your property.

    A few things to consider:   

    1. leases often have sections describing appropriate (and inappropriate) use of the unit. Having stuff stacked to the ceiling and spilling out all over the yard seems like an inappropriate use of the property.  Is it possible to add a section to your lease that specifies how much personal belongings someone can store in the unit? ...perhaps the lease could state that if the tenant exceeds that threshold, then they're required to get a storage unit?  ...I have no idea whether it would be legal to have this in a lease, so you'd want to check with an attorney... but if it is legal, then that seems like a reasonable solution...  

    2. leases usually have sections describing cleanliness requirements, and this mess would probably be a violation...as others have mentioned, when the tenant leaves, they'll probably also leave you with a giant cleaning bill if you don't take action first...

    3. Perhaps most importantly, all this stuff is probably a fire hazard.  Presumably, a lot of it is combustible. Plus, all this stuff lying around could easily impede ingress/egress. I would assume that the fire marshall would not be pleased if they saw this mess...

    Lastly, just from a common-sense perspective, if someone has so much stuff that it's stacked to the ceiling and spilling out all over the yard, then that's an unreasonable amount of stuff, and it's time for the tenant to get a storage unit (or rent a larger place).

    Think of it this way: If a tenant owned ten cars, you wouldn't let them park all over the yard and take up every parking space. They'd be required to pay for extra parking spaces, or buy parking spaces at some other place. If a tenant wants to have this much stuff, then they need to rent a place that's large enough to hold all the stuff, or pay for a storage unit. Simple as that.

    So, ultimately my suggestion is to look into whether you can design your lease such that you're able to prevent and address hoarding situations. It seems reasonable to me to say to the tenant: "This is a problem because of X, Y, Z. You need to either get a storage unit, or rent a larger space" (of course, be aware that if you rent them a larger unit, they'll likely fill it with more stuff!).

    Good luck out there!

    3Reply
  • Henry T.
    Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Leo R.:

    @Nathan Gesner it seems like all this stuff could be a lease violation in several ways (depending on how your lease is set up). I think your best option is to have the tenant get a storage unit, so that they can greatly reduce the amount of stuff they're storing at your property.

    A few things to consider:   

    1. leases often have sections describing appropriate (and inappropriate) use of the unit. Having stuff stacked to the ceiling and spilling out all over the yard seems like an inappropriate use of the property.  Is it possible to add a section to your lease that specifies how much personal belongings someone can store in the unit? ...perhaps the lease could state that if the tenant exceeds that threshold, then they're required to get a storage unit?  ...I have no idea whether it would be legal to have this in a lease, so you'd want to check with an attorney... but if it is legal, then that seems like a reasonable solution...  

    2. leases usually have sections describing cleanliness requirements, and this mess would probably be a violation...as others have mentioned, when the tenant leaves, they'll probably also leave you with a giant cleaning bill if you don't take action first...

    3. Perhaps most importantly, all this stuff is probably a fire hazard.  Presumably, a lot of it is combustible. Plus, all this stuff lying around could easily impede ingress/egress. I would assume that the fire marshall would not be pleased if they saw this mess...

    Lastly, just from a common-sense perspective, if someone has so much stuff that it's stacked to the ceiling and spilling out all over the yard, then that's an unreasonable amount of stuff, and it's time for the tenant to get a storage unit (or rent a larger place).

    Think of it this way: If a tenant owned ten cars, you wouldn't let them park all over the yard and take up every parking space. They'd be required to pay for extra parking spaces, or buy parking spaces at some other place. If a tenant wants to have this much stuff, then they need to rent a place that's large enough to hold all the stuff, or pay for a storage unit. Simple as that.

    So, ultimately my suggestion is to look into whether you can design your lease such that you're able to prevent and address hoarding situations. It seems reasonable to me to say to the tenant: "This is a problem because of X, Y, Z. You need to either get a storage unit, or rent a larger space" (of course, be aware that if you rent them a larger unit, they'll likely fill it with more stuff!).

    Good luck out there!

     Excellent suggestions. I had one of these and contacted the fire marshall, because of the fire hazard and blocking of egress. He empathized and understood, but being a private situation, he was not interested at all, not what they do.  Hoarding is a protected class, as a disability, but your suggestions of having requirements for neatness/safety built into the lease sounds doable to me, with attorney help. I'll make sure to add this yet another paragraphs into my lease.

    2Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Jonathan Pflueger:

    It's one I personally own.

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  • Raji Hamideh
    Member since 2020 · 2 posts · 2 votes
    2y

    Doesn't look like theres any damage just messy. The cost of you getting her out, cleaning it out and renting again are not worth it ONLY because she's paying on time. Keep her and raise her rents by 3% every year. 

    1Reply
  • David M.
    Member since 2022 · 66 posts · 68 votes
    2y

    Terminate this lease immediately.  This hoarding situation is ruining your asset.  "IF MICE GET IN ?".  Come on.  Mice are in.  As are bugs, mold, etc.  This is an insurance violation, fire hazard, health code violation, and structural danger to the home.  This will not get better it will slowly get worse.  If you allow this to continue, you will seriously devalue your asset.  This isn't personal; this is business. Nip it in the bud.

    1Reply
  • Christine I.
    Member since 2022 · 49 posts · 13 votes
    2y

    @Nathan Gesner Just curious. Did you get her out? Did she remove everything? Any damage to her unit from the hoarding?

    I'm in a similar situation and have given tenant until tomorrow to comply with her lease. She is a many years tenant, pays on time, and causes no problems except for this very big issue of hoarding. 

    1Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Christine I.:

    Yes, we gave her a 60-day notice and she vacated on time. We had some cleaning to do and minor damage that wasn't visible due to the rooms being packed to the gills. Also evidence of mice.

    If we had let it go, I have no doubt the costs would have been significant at some point.


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