Good tenant turned annoying....mentally trying not to be bothered.

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Good tenant turned annoying....mentally trying not to be bothered.

Michelle Brockway
Real Estate Agent · Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 0 votes

Good Evening All-

I have been scoping Bigger Pockets out for a little over a year (stumbled upon it while searching about real estate) and have been a little self-conscious about asking questions.  No one wants to sound dumb or inexperienced.  However, I must get this off my mind and hear from those who are/were in a similar situation.  So, here I am with my first major post...   

I currently am renting out my one and only house to a lady going on 4 years this April.  I originally decided to rent it out because I was planning on going into the Navy.  Fast forward 3 1/2 years, things have gone in a different direction - didn't go into the Navy.

My tenant has been great!  ...up until recently.  

Before getting into the issue/inner struggle, a little background on initial understanding/expectations needs to be put out there.  She was looking to buy a house in a different area after her daughter graduated from the local high school near my house (daughter was going in as a freshman at the time). She has told me every renewal she was going to stay until 2015.  Perfect!  I pretty much could count on her staying and paying my mortgage for 4 years.  She rarely requested any services/repairs except once a year for the older model air conditioning unit.  Almost the perfect tenant- paid on time..  She even informed me immediately she had a rent check return NSF and would pay the fee on next rent. :)   

Then...

It started about 6 months back when I informally informed her, that I will be needing the house back May 2015 (lease will not renew).  I thought I was being very fair.  I thought it would be better with almost a year notice instead of a 30 to 60 day notice.  I further informed her I will give her adequate, advanced notice prior to the lease renewal (thinking around January 2015).  Since completion of year 1, the lease has been on continuous renewal, as stated in lease, until tenant or myself stops it from renewing.  

She immediately fell silent - then turned annoying.  Annoying in the sense that I have placed going on the 4th service call.  One service call was on an issue she had been living with for about a year that needed an electrician to fix.  The second service call was on an issue she had been dealing with for about 2-3 months prior and that was taken care of about a month ago by a plumber.  This fourth service request also needs a plumber to fix a drainage issue in the kitchen. Would have been nice to have the plumber look at the sink when he came a month ago.  Granted it may not have been an issue other than the fact she states today the sink takes 10-15 hours to drain.  She wants to keep the faucet dripping over night due to the cold (yay!), but would like it to be fixed tomorrow.  Not sure I can get someone there that short notice.  Each service request costs me $100.  I have looked at tenant/renter law and realize she has the necessities taken care of - electricity, AC/Heat, and running water.  

She has also been late with rent twice now.  I sent her a certified and non-certified letter requesting the two months worth of late fees totaling $60.  She has talked to me in a rude way and said she will pay when she pays.  She did pay $5 one month and $10 the following month towards the late fees with rent.  I guess that is something and I should be happy.  However, I am not.  I am annoyed.

I did tell her she needs to tell me immediately when something goes wrong, but I feel she is getting back at me.  I am taking it personal.  How do I separate business from pleasure in this situation?  I know it is only a matter of 5 more months, but I plan to rent the house again when I no longer need it as a primary place of residence.  I need to know how to view this because I do not want to pay a PM to handle the house.  Please help!  Any advice wanted.

-Michelle Brockway

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Marcia Maynard
Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
11y
Originally posted by @Michelle Brockway:

Good Evening All-

I have been scoping Bigger Pockets out for a little over a year (stumbled upon it while searching about real estate) and have been a little self-conscious about asking questions.  No one wants to sound dumb or inexperienced.  However, I must get this off my mind and hear from those who are/were in a similar situation.  So, here I am with my first major post...   

-Michelle Brockway

Michelle! Welcome to Bigger Pockets and stepping forward to be more involved! 

My take on your situation may be a little different than that of others. I believe it is a good thing to try to save a tenancy and to continue to nurture the landlord-tenant relationship, even after some disruption. Start with compassion and seek to understand.

Have you let your tenant know how much you appreciate her? Tenants improve with positive feedback. Ask her about her dreams and goals, maybe help her look for the next best place for her to live. Let her know you need your house back for your own use, nothing personal against her, and apologize to her if there was some misunderstanding.

About the service calls.... no need to be annoyed by them, they are part of doing business and are necessary for maintaining a home. It strikes me odd that you were glad she rarely requested any service or repairs. Either that means you were doing regular maintenance all along, or she was doing regular maintenance all along, or she was not reporting problems as they occurred, or you were not doing regular inspections and finding problems as they occurred, or else the house was new and nothing was going wrong. Four years of tenancy and only four service calls? Remarkable.

Plumbing issues are the number one maintenance need. We do annual plumbing inspections of all our units and bring along our plumber for that. Money well spent. If we go into a unit to deal with a plumbing problem at another time of year, we always have the plumber do a quick check of all the plumbing. That is being proactive. We charge the tenant for the repair if the plumbing problem was a result of something they did or did not do that they should have done. Sometimes we waive or reduce the charge if the tenant acted in good faith. We use the event as a teaching moment.

On the electrical problem, thank her for letting you know about it. If she was living with the problem for one year, then she is not reporting needs in a timely manner. If you set up a maintenance plan at the start with clear expectations, it can save you and the tenant some headaches. Here is an excerpt from our rental agreement that you may find helpful:

"MAINTENANCE OF PREMISES: Landlord will maintain all electrical, plumbing, heating, and other facilities and appliances supplied by Landlord in reasonably good working order. Landlord will perform periodic inspections of premises, no less than once a year, for the purpose of property maintenance and repair. Landlord will notify Tenant in advance of the inspection. Tenant agrees to allow Landlord timely access to premises to do maintenance and repair. Tenant will notify Landlord in a timely manner of any damages or problems as they arise, including damages cause by Tenant, malfunction of appliances or fixtures, and water/moisture leaks and spots. Tenant will care for the premises, keeping them clean and clear of debris."

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  • Elizabeth Colegrove
    Hanford, CA · Member since 2013 · 5k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Michelle Brockway 

    She is ticked that you are not renewing. People don't like being forced out :( You learned my hard lesson. In the beginning I was nice to the point it was determinant to my goals of running a business. There is such a thing as TMI :) I know I am considered a hard a butt but when my I started to becoming the professional it got better.

    Per my lease draining issues is the tenants issues because it is probably do to use. In this case I would tell the tenant to try draino :) I would remind them that if it is due to their fault they are responsible for paying it. I also establish expectations. As this is not an emergency I will call a plumber and he will call you to set up expectations.

    AS for the rent. I would send them a certified letter and say that late payments are unexpectable. Next time she is a DAY late I would post a quid pro on her door. You need to establish boundaries and expectations ASAP. She is throwing an tantrum!

    2Reply
  • Jeff Rabinowitz
    Investor/Landlord · Farmington Hills, MI · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Michelle Brockway  , if the tenant is paying the rent late that is reason enough to cancel the lease. The rest of it ... that is unlikely to stop unless you demonstrate that you have changed your attitude. Do not take it personally but do treat the rental home as the business that it is. If the rent is late send the notice to quit (or the Texas equivalent).  If you do not get an appropriate response get a court date for eviction.  You can always cancel the court date if you wish but if the tenant is becoming a problem it may be easier in the long run to cancel the lease now then to deal with them for a couple more months.

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  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    Do you have it in your lease that accumulated late fees can be taken out of the security deposit?  If so, then don't worry, you'll get those when she moves out.

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  • Account Closed
    Rental Property Investor · Indialantic, FL · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 21 votes
    11y

    @Elizabeth Colegrove is absolutely right.  You need to remove the personal element from this business relationship.  Never deviate from your lease -- if she's late, immediate 3 day notice.  If the rent is not paid in full including late fees as additional rent -- 3 day notice to vacate (or whatever is stated in your lease, but you get the point).

    Sounds like she's going to be difficult for the remainder of her lease.  It could be a rough ride ... or you could just stand your ground and stick to your lease.  

    Good Luck!

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  • Michelle Brockway
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 0 votes
    11y

    @Elizabeth Colegrove That was my first thought- she is ticked and is throwing her form of a tantrum!  TMI- Had not thought of it like that.  That is getting a little personal- got it.  Stick with what the law deems acceptable.  As for the draino, I didn't want another episode of "ripping me a new one."  I think I have a way to slip that idea in though.  Thank you for your thoughts :)

    @Jeff Rabinowitz Thank you for your input.  It is a business and needs to have a definitive line drawn.  Good points.

    @Dawn Anastasi No, it doesn't state that specifically in the lease.  :(  I know for next time!

    @Account Closed I agree, deviating from lease is not good.  It can create a tenant that doesn't respect you as an owner of the property.  Thanks :)

    Great input all.  I feel better and hope to have a good update soon.

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  • Elizabeth Colegrove
    Hanford, CA · Member since 2013 · 5k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Michelle I would not take a chewing. I would inform her that it is her duty to try draino like she has the past 4 years. If it is her fault than she will be paying the bill.

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  • Marcia Maynard
    Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Michelle Brockway:

    Good Evening All-

    I have been scoping Bigger Pockets out for a little over a year (stumbled upon it while searching about real estate) and have been a little self-conscious about asking questions.  No one wants to sound dumb or inexperienced.  However, I must get this off my mind and hear from those who are/were in a similar situation.  So, here I am with my first major post...   

    -Michelle Brockway

    Michelle! Welcome to Bigger Pockets and stepping forward to be more involved! 

    My take on your situation may be a little different than that of others. I believe it is a good thing to try to save a tenancy and to continue to nurture the landlord-tenant relationship, even after some disruption. Start with compassion and seek to understand.

    Have you let your tenant know how much you appreciate her? Tenants improve with positive feedback. Ask her about her dreams and goals, maybe help her look for the next best place for her to live. Let her know you need your house back for your own use, nothing personal against her, and apologize to her if there was some misunderstanding.

    About the service calls.... no need to be annoyed by them, they are part of doing business and are necessary for maintaining a home. It strikes me odd that you were glad she rarely requested any service or repairs. Either that means you were doing regular maintenance all along, or she was doing regular maintenance all along, or she was not reporting problems as they occurred, or you were not doing regular inspections and finding problems as they occurred, or else the house was new and nothing was going wrong. Four years of tenancy and only four service calls? Remarkable.

    Plumbing issues are the number one maintenance need. We do annual plumbing inspections of all our units and bring along our plumber for that. Money well spent. If we go into a unit to deal with a plumbing problem at another time of year, we always have the plumber do a quick check of all the plumbing. That is being proactive. We charge the tenant for the repair if the plumbing problem was a result of something they did or did not do that they should have done. Sometimes we waive or reduce the charge if the tenant acted in good faith. We use the event as a teaching moment.

    On the electrical problem, thank her for letting you know about it. If she was living with the problem for one year, then she is not reporting needs in a timely manner. If you set up a maintenance plan at the start with clear expectations, it can save you and the tenant some headaches. Here is an excerpt from our rental agreement that you may find helpful:

    "MAINTENANCE OF PREMISES: Landlord will maintain all electrical, plumbing, heating, and other facilities and appliances supplied by Landlord in reasonably good working order. Landlord will perform periodic inspections of premises, no less than once a year, for the purpose of property maintenance and repair. Landlord will notify Tenant in advance of the inspection. Tenant agrees to allow Landlord timely access to premises to do maintenance and repair. Tenant will notify Landlord in a timely manner of any damages or problems as they arise, including damages cause by Tenant, malfunction of appliances or fixtures, and water/moisture leaks and spots. Tenant will care for the premises, keeping them clean and clear of debris."

    4Reply
  • Marcia Maynard
    Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Elizabeth Colegrove:

    Michelle I would not take a chewing. I would inform her that it is her duty to try draino like she has the past 4 years. If it is her fault than she will be paying the bill.

    Elizabeth, our approach is different than yours. We don't allow our tenants to use draino or any other caustic chemicals in our plumbing systems. They can be hazardous to the tenant, to us, and to the plumber who may need to work on the plumbing. Upfront tenant education and drain strainers on all drains are a better approach. Our rental agreement states:

    "DRAIN CLEANING PRODUCTS.  Tenant agrees not to use caustic drain cleaning chemicals in any of the drains or plumbing fixtures.  Such products may cause damage to the plumbing system and may be hazardous to the environment.  Tenant may be able to keep drains clean and clear with regular maintenance by pouring down the drain a quarter cup of baking soda followed by a half cup of vinegar.  If there is a minor clog in the p-trap (the curved portion) of the pipe under the sink, Tenant may disconnect the pipe, clear the pipe manually, and reconnect the pipe to clear the clog or may call Landlord for assistance."

    Also...

    "DRAIN STOPPAGES.  As of the date of this Agreement, Landlord warrants that the dwelling’s sewage drains are in good working order and that they will accept the normal household waste for which they were designed. They will not accept things such as paper diapers, sanitary napkins, tampons, children’s toys, wads of toilet paper, balls of hair, grease, oil, table scraps, clothing, rags, sand, dirt, rocks, or newspapers. Tenant agrees to pay for clearing the drains of any and all stoppages except those, which the plumber who is called to clear the stoppage will attest to in writing, were caused by defective plumbing, tree roots, or a result of weather.  Tenant agrees to keep on hand and properly use a plunger when necessary to unclog drains and prevent water overflow from toilet, sinks and bathtub."

    This approach has been working for us for almost 20 years!

    2Reply
  • Marcia Maynard
    Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Dawn Anastasi:

    Do you have it in your lease that accumulated late fees can be taken out of the security deposit?  If so, then don't worry, you'll get those when she moves out.

    That's a good point. Since it is nearing the end of the tenancy, I agree it would be best to wait and settle up later.

    Another approach is to designate how payments will be applied and to establish this from the beginning in the lease, such as:

    "PAYMENTS.  All payments made by Tenant to Landlord after the tenancy commences, no matter how designated by Tenant, will be applied as follows: first, to any outstanding amounts due for damages/repairs, utilities etc.; second, to any outstanding service charges and fees from prior months; third, to any rent outstanding from prior months; fourth, to any service charges or fees due in the current month; and lastly to the current month’s rent."  

    0Reply
  • Richard C.
    Bedford, NH · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    You have gotten some lousy advice on this thread, and then some good advice from Marcia.

    Threatening her with a pay or quit is nuts.  So you can get her out.  And then what, let the house sit empty till May?  You're going to lose 7 months of rent over $60 in late fees, so you can "set boundaries" and show the tenant who's boss?  That's nuts.

    Especially because, frankly, the tenant hold all the cards here.  Is she acting out a bit?  Yes.  But there isn't a lot you can do about it except try to make it through to the end with your house undamaged.

    And as to damage:  Marcia is right.  Those are valid calls, and you have had remarkably few of them.

    1Reply
  • Michelle Brockway
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 0 votes
    11y

    @Marcia Maynard Wow, so glad you chimed in.  I have read some of your thoughts/ideas on BP and really appreciate your insight.  I remember something you said on a Podcast.  Something about during the holiday(s) you give your tenants a little gift if they have shown respect for you as the landlord with good payment history.  I did catch that vibe that you value your tenants and do try to show that to them.  Yes, I have told my tenant on many occasions that I appreciate her and how she has been great these past 3 1/2 years- couldn't have asked for anyone better.  I guess the services calls from her are pretty low compared to what they could be (I do not do maintenance service as I should).  I am not sure what she has been doing the past 3 years up until now.  I do like the idea of yearly maintenance.  I do go through a warranty company and if there was ever something major that needed to be fixed, they would cover it.  Plus, I feel reassured that if I needed a new AC or heating unit that I will not have to come out of pocket with 3k+.  Very comforting.  Also, I have not found anyone who I am comfortable with using as one who would come do yearly maintenance- tough one.    Now, I am running a tight budget for my rental, so I have to watch certain expenditures.  I do make about $250 above the mortgage payment- so that is not too bad.  It has helped me put some aside in the even anything were to go wrong.  As for the draino- I have been told it is not good.  I was just thinking of a cheaper route.  I do know the cheaper route may cost me way more later down the road.  So, it probably is good to have the plumber come out and take a look at everything anyway.  The clauses you wrote are great.  I will look into adding something of that nature in mine for the next go-round.  Thanks for your advice!!

    @Elizabeth Colegrove @Richard C. @Account Closed 

      Thank you all for your advice.  I like to have advice from all sides.  All had good ideas to share.  What works for some might not work for others.  I'll soon have an update...  

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  • Sam Leon
    Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    11y

    Here's my take.

    I know people when they see a leak in the ceiling they just put a bucket under it to catch the water, instead of trying to implement a cure.  They may be too busy to deal with it and then a week turns into a month, six months, and before you know it, they got used to having a bucket in the middle of their living room, it's a permanent fixture, and they empty the bucket every few days.

    I am speculating here, but perhaps your tenant is one of those.  She knows there are issues, she tolerates the issues, she didn't call you to report it, now that her stay is coming close to an end, may be she doesn't want for you to find all these problems after she moves out, and count it against her security deposit, so she is reporting them now one at a time.

    Sounds like these are legit issues.  I'll get then addressed ASAP.  It's to your benefit that they are being addressed now instead of when you do your make ready and risk potentially a delay on the availability.  On the other hand, her not reporting these issues any sooner may have made the problems worse.

    1Reply
  • Matt Schelberg
    Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2013 · 281 posts · 257 votes
    11y

    The tenant's refusal to pay late fees is an interesting problem -- with OP's tenant so close to moving out, I agree that it's best to make an effort to improve the relationship and not draw a red line.  If she does not pay, we take it out of her security deposit in a few months, as Dawn suggested.

    But let's change the scenario a bit...say this happens in month 3 of a 12-month lease.  Do we let the tenant push us around like this without consequence?  Unless the tenant is claiming financial hardship, the response "I'll pay you when I pay you" is pretty antagonistic.  This is an open challenge to the landlord, and the landlord's response will set the tone for the rest of the relationship.  Sure, it's only a $60 late fee, but it is sure to invite future problems if the tenant comes to believe (rightly or wrongly) that the landlord is a pushover.  What's our best move here?

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  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    11y

    "It started about 6 months back when I informally informed her, that I will be needing the house back May 2015 (lease will not renew).  I thought I was being very fair.  I thought it would be better with almost a year notice instead of a 30 to 60 day notice."

    My opinion was this was a massive mistake of epic proportions.

    Everyone's life circumstances change so quickly that a year time span can be a lifetime. Should have let sleeping dogs lie until the 2 months before when you were certain you needed the place.

    Mentally now the tenant is counting down the days until you will kick them out and are disgruntled.

    I don't know how you UNRING that bell.

    At this point the goal is to keep her through her tenancy so you might have to eat a little humble pie and try to make a peace offering. You get more with honey than you do with vinegar. Not always but women tend to get more emotional in reacting to things. It can be one of the best of traits and one of the worst of traits. Men often look at things in black and white but sometimes lack empathy that can be used and helpful in certain situations. While these are commonalties in women and men they are not absolutes and there are of course exceptions.

    It's very hard to not to take things personal when money is involved in your life no matter who you are as a landlord. The stress of money also leeches over into other parts of your life ( family, friends, etc.) in a negative way.

    I realized that after dealing with a bunch of tenants it wasn't the way I wanted to live my life so I got out of that kind of investing.

    No legal advice.

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  • Richard C.
    Bedford, NH · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Matt Schelberg:

    The tenant's refusal to pay late fees is an interesting problem -- with OP's tenant so close to moving out, I agree that it's best to make an effort to improve the relationship and not draw a red line.  If she does not pay, we take it out of her security deposit in a few months, as Dawn suggested.

    But let's change the scenario a bit...say this happens in month 3 of a 12-month lease.  Do we let the tenant push us around like this without consequence?  Unless the tenant is claiming financial hardship, the response "I'll pay you when I pay you" is pretty antagonistic.  This is an open challenge to the landlord, and the landlord's response will set the tone for the rest of the relationship.  Sure, it's only a $60 late fee, but it is sure to invite future problems if the tenant comes to believe (rightly or wrongly) that the landlord is a pushover.  What's our best move here?

     The best move is to do the math, not get hung up in emotion and one-upsmanship.

    If it happens in month 3 of a 12 month lease, when at the end of that lease the landlord is moving back into the property herself, the same rule is very likely to apply.  She cannot re-rent, so the question is whether she wants to show the tenant (who will not be her tenant soon, anyway) who is "boss", at the cost of losing 9 months of rent, or whether she will deal with the lost late fee and keep collecting rent and not getting her house destroyed.

    Big companies waive late fees.  Pretty much always, on request.  And they don't worry about being seen as a "pushover."  This is about math.

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  • Michelle Brockway
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 0 votes
    11y

    @Joel Owens @Richard C. Both make Very good points.  I am not going to be a hard you-know-what in trying to get the late fees.  I do want to keep her in the house until I need it.  Humble pie it is.  lol

    Update:  Turns out my warranty company sent a contract plumber to take a look and give his assessment.  He worded it as such: mud is causing a shift in the pipes, which caused a separation and line break.  The warranty company will not cover the cost due to his verbiage.  He never once sent a camera down the pipe to get a close, accurate depiction, but saw "mud" on the end of the snake.  So, I guess that means a break in the line.  The warranty company will not pay for the camera to verify.  Looking at about $2500-$5000 repair.  Ouch.  So, I am trying to get my home insurance involved.  I currently am waiting on my claims representative to call me back.  So the wait continues and my tenant can not use the kitchen sink.  

    I am worried this process will take too long and thinking about getting a plumber out there immediately to fix.  I am so glad I didn't tell her to use draino!!  

    Any thoughts?      

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  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    11y

    I have heard soil shifting occurs frequently in certain parts of Texas.

    The mud moving or root penetration has nothing to do with a tenant.

    At this point it's how much will it be to fix the problem?? Can they just replace a section of pipe or is this something where the whole thing has to be fixed??

    See if you can find an investor friendly plumber. They might do it for much cheaper. The big companies have lots of overhead and fancy trucks. The plumber with the beater of a truck and everything isn't shiny sometimes does as good or better work for less of price.  

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