any recourse for damage caused by police?

Contractor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 885 posts · 359 votes

So the situation:

The local police executed a search warrant in one of my rentals. The broke the door frame and damaged the exterior of a steel room with a ram. They then proceded to look for someone who 1) is not my tenant 2) was not there.

Is there any possibility that they will be paying for the necessary repairs?

Really just don't have any experience in this area, thanks!

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Adam Hershman

Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 237 posts · 107 votes

11y

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @Jeremy Pace:

@Account Closed

To clarify, all described damage was to a single door (and the frame of said door).

What if the tenant is asleep, or not home?

There are innumerable examples of police:

1) going to the wrong house

2) using excessive force and/or poor judgment

either of these alone is enough to make me want to explore my options. Police are just people, and people make mistakes.

Well, I guess all that matters is what happened in this case. Were your tenants asleep? Were they not home?

I'm just asking what I think is an obvious question. And what the city attorney will ask, too. But, I think you should be prepared for the possibility that the reason the door was smashed in, was because the tenants refused to open it. And if that's the case, just be ready for that argument from the city attorney when you go after the city for damages.

Come on now, this is just silly. Do you expect your insurance company to tell you they won't pay for your burned down house because you should have put the fire out? First of all the burden is not on the private citizen, the police can knock, break down your door, arrest you, and generally whatever else they want to do, this doesn't make it legal or in any way acceptable, and you should pursue damages in the case that they police are at fault.

If the police had a warrant for someone at your address, they would have to have some sort of documentation or reasonable probable cause for a judge to issue a search warrant, so even if the warrant is effectually appropriate, the police may have acted inappropriately or even with negligence when preparing the request for a warrant (i.e if they got the wrong address or falsified evidence to obtain the warrant). In which case you would have not only claim to property damages but also several avenues of personal damage (i.e illegal seach, false charges, false arrest, possibly harassment and/or defamation of character.)

It's no more the tenants fault then if the property was vandalized or broken into, they have no control over the police, and they had done nothing to bring the police to the property. It sucks for the owner for sure, but the next time you complain about how unfair tenant/landlord laws are remember that it's because of people charging tenants for these kinds of things that forced laws favoring the tenants on the books.

Just my 2 cents

Adam

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Jeff CopelandBusiness Member
Real Estate Broker · Tampa Bay/St Petersburg, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
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It's certainly possible (and reasonable). You'd most likely need to initiate a claim with the city/county/agency's risk management department.
The more documentation and photos you can provide, and the quicker you get the claim started, the better.
Many public entities are self-insured. Depending on the dollar amount, they may deal with you directly, or may refer you to a third party administrator, which would be more like dealing with an insurance company.
I do this (public sector risk management) as my day job, so feel free to message me if you need any additional advice.
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Account Closed
San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
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I'm wondering if you can't charge the tenants. Why didn't they open the door? I'd but this on the tenants.
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Jeremy Pace
OP
Contractor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 885 posts · 359 votes
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@Account Closed
Why would I charge the tenant? They didn't cause the damage, and neither did their guest. Even if the police don't pay, I still wouldn't charge the tenant.
If they are charged with / convicted of a crime, it's different ... but as of now, they are faultless.
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Account Closed
San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
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@Jeremy Pace, I'm just trying to picture a scenario where the police battered down a door, then battered down another door. All I can picture is that they said, we have a warrant to search, and the tenants refused to let them in. Then, they refused to open another door that was locked.
If that's the case, the tenants could have avoided any damage by just honoring the police warrant and letting them in, and then opening up the door they asked to be opened. I can't imagine police just battering their way into a place and then through another door.
So, in my opinion, if the tenants refused to let the cops in, even though they had a warrant, the damage is on the tenant, because the damage could have been avoided by the tenant.
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Jeremy Pace
OP
Contractor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 885 posts · 359 votes
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@Account Closed
To clarify, all described damage was to a single door (and the frame of said door).
What if the tenant is asleep, or not home?
There are innumerable examples of police:
1) going to the wrong house
2) using excessive force and/or poor judgment
either of these alone is enough to make me want to explore my options. Police are just people, and people make mistakes.
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Joel OwensBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
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If you get an attorney they LOVE stuff like this. They usually get the county, city, state etc. to pay all their costs in court plus your damages. If attorneys feel you have a strong case they will take it on for payment later when they win.
No legal advice given.
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Account Closed
San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
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Originally posted by @Jeremy Pace:

@Account Closed
To clarify, all described damage was to a single door (and the frame of said door).
What if the tenant is asleep, or not home?
There are innumerable examples of police:
1) going to the wrong house
2) using excessive force and/or poor judgment
either of these alone is enough to make me want to explore my options. Police are just people, and people make mistakes.
Well, I guess all that matters is what happened in this case. Were your tenants asleep? Were they not home?
I'm just asking what I think is an obvious question. And what the city attorney will ask, too. But, I think you should be prepared for the possibility that the reason the door was smashed in, was because the tenants refused to open it. And if that's the case, just be ready for that argument from the city attorney when you go after the city for damages.
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Jeff G.Pro Member
Investor · Wethersfield, CT · Member since 2013 · 371 posts · 191 votes
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@Jeremy Pace
According to this article PA is a knock-and-announce state: http://www2.readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=498587
But, in practice that might not matter. Imagine if you will, someone walking up to the door and quietly knocking and getting out of the way of the battering ram without breaking their stride. The occupants simply might not have had enough time to comply or they might not have heard the knock.
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Aly W.
Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
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This happened to a condo we own in FL. The tenants were on vacation, and a neighboring tenant called the police saying her boyfriend was threatening her with a gun. She gave the wrong unit number in her panic and the police pounded on my tenant's door. Since no one was home to answer, they broke it down.
The police found the woman hiding in a stairwell and when questioned, she gave another unit number. My tenant's mother-in-law came by to feed the fish, saw the damage, and I got the phone call.
Long story short, as @Jeff Copelandsaid, we dealt with the city's risk management company, located in another city. It was not a big deal; we provided the quote from our contractor to fix the damage and had a check about 2 weeks later. The police report stated it was the wrong address.
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Jeff CopelandBusiness Member
Real Estate Broker · Tampa Bay/St Petersburg, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
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@Jeremy Pace, @Aly W. brings up a great point. I forgot to mention you should request a copy of the police report asap.
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Jeremy Pace
OP
Contractor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 885 posts · 359 votes
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@Jeff Copeland @Aly W.
I was just typing that out.
I've already called and requested to meet with them. I'll use that opportunity to gather up any documents they'll allow me to have.
Thanks for all the ideas and support, everyone.
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Aly W.
Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
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Good luck @Jeremy Pace!
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Adam Hershman
Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 237 posts · 107 votes
11y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @Jeremy Pace:
@Account Closed
To clarify, all described damage was to a single door (and the frame of said door).
What if the tenant is asleep, or not home?
There are innumerable examples of police:
1) going to the wrong house
2) using excessive force and/or poor judgment
either of these alone is enough to make me want to explore my options. Police are just people, and people make mistakes.
Well, I guess all that matters is what happened in this case. Were your tenants asleep? Were they not home?
I'm just asking what I think is an obvious question. And what the city attorney will ask, too. But, I think you should be prepared for the possibility that the reason the door was smashed in, was because the tenants refused to open it. And if that's the case, just be ready for that argument from the city attorney when you go after the city for damages.
Come on now, this is just silly. Do you expect your insurance company to tell you they won't pay for your burned down house because you should have put the fire out? First of all the burden is not on the private citizen, the police can knock, break down your door, arrest you, and generally whatever else they want to do, this doesn't make it legal or in any way acceptable, and you should pursue damages in the case that they police are at fault.
If the police had a warrant for someone at your address, they would have to have some sort of documentation or reasonable probable cause for a judge to issue a search warrant, so even if the warrant is effectually appropriate, the police may have acted inappropriately or even with negligence when preparing the request for a warrant (i.e if they got the wrong address or falsified evidence to obtain the warrant). In which case you would have not only claim to property damages but also several avenues of personal damage (i.e illegal seach, false charges, false arrest, possibly harassment and/or defamation of character.)
It's no more the tenants fault then if the property was vandalized or broken into, they have no control over the police, and they had done nothing to bring the police to the property. It sucks for the owner for sure, but the next time you complain about how unfair tenant/landlord laws are remember that it's because of people charging tenants for these kinds of things that forced laws favoring the tenants on the books.
Just my 2 cents
Adam
4 Reply
Account Closed
San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
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@Adam Hershman I see your point. But, why does everyone assume the police were at fault? I'm just saying, perhaps it was the tenant's fault. And if it was, then it's hardly fair to charge the police. Whoever was at fault should pay for the damage, most definitely.
Getting the police report will be helpful in that regard.
1 Reply
James Miller
Investor · Marshall, MO · Member since 2014 · 29 posts · 19 votes
11y
I had that happen to a unit of mine. Tenant had compound fracture of the leg and couldn't get to door in time. Police broke storm door and frame of entry door. Course my tenant was guilty of charge so no problem to me I just fixed damage got rid of tenant(or should day he decided to leave town in a hurry and not come back left all personal property also)
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Adam Hershman
Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 237 posts · 107 votes
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@Account Closed
Well I live in Las Vegas, which if you're familiar with LVMPD is reason enough to assume the police were at fault, haha.
I know what you're saying about jumping to conclusions, I think most of us assumed that the tenants were not engaged in illegal activity or otherwise caused the police to show up because of what the OP said:
"proceded to look for someone who 1) is not my tenant 2) was not there."
He didn't explicitly say the tenants had nothing to do with the matter, but the inference was that they were generally not at fault for bringing the authorities to the property.
Adam
1 Reply
Jeremy Pace
OP
Contractor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 885 posts · 359 votes
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@Adam Hershman
@Account Closed
One of the most frustrating aspects of this for me is that I thought I had a pretty good relationship with the police in the town where this rental is located. I'm not very happy to feel like I've been left in the dark. I'd even offered to let them into the property if they ever needed to get in ... so it's just not what I expected.
And Sue, I'm so glad that nothing has happened to you (yet) they makes you weary of the police in your area. For your sake, I hope that continues indefinitely. Because believe me, once the trust is broken, it'll never come back.
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Account Closed
San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
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Originally posted by @Adam Hershman:

@Account Closed
Well I live in Las Vegas, which if you're familiar with LVMPD is reason enough to assume the police were at fault, haha.
I know what you're saying about jumping to conclusions, I think most of us assumed that the tenants were not engaged in illegal activity or otherwise caused the police to show up because of what the OP said:
"proceded to look for someone who 1) is not my tenant 2) was not there."
He didn't explicitly say the tenants had nothing to do with the matter, but the inference was that they were generally not at fault for bringing the authorities to the property.
Adam
Yeah, but he also made that pesky mention of a "guest." The one who jumped out the window, maybe?
And see, even with that statement alone, my very first thought was, "Why didn't the tenant just open the door?" Who cares who they're looking for?
Just goes to show people think differently. Anyway, don't want to derail the thread with a pro-cop, anti-cop thing.
And can't you find tenants who don't know criminals the cops are looking for? Maybe that's the bottom line here. If you want to rent in a crime zone, expect some damage.
1 Reply
Account Closed
San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
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@Jeremy Pace, sorry we were posting at the same time. I don't expect to ever have bad feelings with any cops, because I don't put myself in situations where I have to be afraid of them.
Heck, I was even nice to the last cop who gave me a traffic ticket - I deserved it.
I'm glad the cops are out there looking for bad guys. Anyway, nuff said.
1 Reply
Adam Hershman
Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 237 posts · 107 votes
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@Jeremy Pace
I am with you 100%, I know that not all police officers are bad people or even most, but when your profession is something as important as upholding the law and protecting and serving the public, you don't get many do-overs, especially if your mistake seems based on incompetence or negligence. I can't remember what the exact quote was or who said it, but in effect; "I would rather be known as an evil man, for evil oft masks the face of incompetence, and of the two, incompetence is the more dangerous."
Adam
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Account Closed
San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
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Originally posted by @Adam Hershman:
@Jeremy Pace
I am with you 100%, I know that not all police officers are bad people or even most, but when your profession is something as important as upholding the law and protecting and serving the public, you don't get many do-overs, especially if your mistake seems based on incompetence or negligence. I can't remember what the exact quote was or who said it, but in effect; "I would rather be known as an evil man, for evil oft masks the face of incompetence, and of the two, incompetence is the more dangerous."
Adam
Okay, I promise, this is my last response :-)
My problem with what you're saying, is that you are assuming they were incompetent or negligent - or guilty - before you've even seen the police report.
If they had the right address on their search warrant, they did not make a mistake.
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Jeremy Pace
OP
Contractor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 885 posts · 359 votes
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The police damaged my real property, they're doing a pretty poor job of explaining themselves. If the tenant is at fault, they're getting evicted. If the police made a mistake, I'd like them to replace my door ... since they broke it.
This is just like when someone in front of you slams on their brakes and you rear-end them. You have to prove to the insurance company that you're not at fault ... all I want is for them to demonstrate that they are not at fault. I'll update once I get all the proper documentation.
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Peter John K
Vail, AZ · Member since 2015 · 64 posts · 17 votes
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what if the judge who issued it made the mistake?
Maybe they were supposed to go next door and the clerk mis typed the address and your tenant was home. They could have let them in and than complain later. If they are looking for a person they can look in a closet or under a bed but they CANNOT look in bags boxes under the mattress in your dresser etc.... So asking as there contraban was tucked away they would be fine. I can see some paranoid stoners worried about the bong in there freezer causing you a whole bunch of headaches over a clerical error lol
1 Reply
David C.
Real Estate Professional · Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2012 · 319 posts · 167 votes
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Was your tenant home? Why didn't they open the door?
1 Reply
Tommy Sowell
Investor · Waianae, HI · Member since 2014 · 107 posts · 42 votes
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Hello
I had a case in San Diego where the rental unit was empty and my other tenant told the police the place was empty and they had a key to the door. The police still knocked the door down.
Tommy
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