Entitled Tenants from hell....but my mistake for being "nice"

Entitled Tenants from hell....but my mistake for being "nice"

Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes

I have a small house on 18 acres.   We have rented it out 5 times with no complaints.  In the last 4 years we we have totally renovated it adding a sun room, new HVAC, electrical, plumbing, and refinishing floors, refurbished the buck stove etc. you get the picture. When the new tenants moved in July 2014.  I told them I have done everything but upgrade the insulation and that was on my list to get done.  A month after they moved in her boyfriend lost his job and since has not found another.  I have accepted late and partial rent ($750) with no late fees for the past 5 months.  I know... 1st mistake and been way too nice lending them things.   They have paid in full by the end of each month but then, I get this email from her.  I responded with an eviction notice, which I received another tenant email after that... just as long as this one as to why I was so angry and being unfair.

Hello Lisa & Billy,

Shannon and I write you today in a spirit of compromise and cooperation in hopes that there can be a consensus about the current situation at the Holsclaw House that we rent from you. Though it is understood from your recent email about your medical issue and current financial situation that it is not the best time of year for you to be fixing the weatherization of our rental, it is also law for you to upkeep your rental as duties of being our landlords. To be frank, no matter what is going on with your end, the upkeep and safety of the rental is your responsibility. We believe it is none of our business the personal decisions you are making about your own home or the business decisions of other rentals, if you are not able to upkeep the house we are renting, you are not able to charge us the full rent originally agreed upon. This is not personal, it is law. It was noticed, but not yet abundantly clear until the inspection was done to completion, the reasoning for our high utilities from the beginning. We were wondering why the house had difficultly keeping the cool air from the Air Conditioning in summer when we did run it. And now we know. I was sincerely shocked to understand that there are whole large sections of the roof from the attic ceiling that are just exposed tin---no wood or insulation at all, where it would be needed most. It is no wonder we are not able to keep heat in this house. Let alone the discovery that the insulation--or what is a crumbled mess left of it in the walls are at least 30-50 years old (per inspector)--so large sections of the house is as if not insulated at all. Billy also mentioned you have had the pipes freeze and burst under the house in recent years, and you can easily see why. Most of the pipes are exposed and not at all insulated, while the ones remaining with insulation have very old, half falling off foam. The gentleman from the first inspection in August mentioned the piles of filter material lay sitting in the attic-especially near the chimney area are a fire hazard and should be removed. This is all especially alarming with the knowledge there has been a fire in the house before. Though it may have been quite some time ago, there is little to no upkeep to the weatherization of this house, other than the working fire place and the option to run the Central Heat/Air full blast. It is simply not acceptable whatsoever that your answer to us is to "DIY" the house when it is not our responsibility. That is why we pay you rent. It is not our home to upkeep in that manner.

When you showed us the rental, and upon move in on more than one occasion, I (Julia) spoke to you both about the weather stripping needed for some of the older windows and both the front & back door. I asked if we should do it ourselves then and deduct the cost off rent. I said I was however afraid to do it ourselves anyway since it is a historic home and I don't want to mess up any of the paint and or moulding on the house. You said you planned on getting a weatherization/energy inspection anyhow, and that it would be taken care of. Now we are told to "DIY" and to just apply to utility assistance programs. It's not going to happen. There is also confusion on our end as to the problem of financial timing on your end. The first,though not fully complete, inspection was done on August 27th. We heard nothing from you two about it after until the scheduled appointment to actually do the work in November. Then all the sudden you cannot afford to do any of it? You had from August to November to prepare for the weatherization of this home.

I understand that this is a vacation home for you two, and that you may have not spent too much time there in the winter to understand how it is there, but we rented this house with your promise that it is a year round ready rental, and that you were going to do the weatherization inspection and follow through with it. We are already experiencing nights--and have been off and on for weeks now, where the weather has reached freezing and below. According to several sections of the Landlord Tenant Act, it is your sole duty to A) make all repairs and do whatever is necessary to put and maintain the premises in a fit and habitable condition B) Maintain in good working order and condition the all heating/ventilation C) Supply reasonable heat and running hot water between October 1st-May 1st. We would really really like to have the pipes insulated so that we don't encounter the problem of no water or hot water if they burst. It would be costly for you to repair as well.

We have made sure you have been paid full rent every single month, though the condition of the home has not been up kept (i.e. weatherized). We are also concerned about the safety issues of the attic. As stated before, writing with a spirit of compromise and cooperation, we would like this email to be considered a thirty day notice to please weatherize the house in accordance with the inspection given by Energy Savers Company on November 23rd. In the meantime, we would like to open up a written dialogue (via email here) as to the fairness of charging us full rent until the weatherization can happen. We would like to propose paying $500 for the month of December, so that leaves us a $250 window for the significant increase in the LGE Bill and the need to drip the water at night when it gets cold enough, i.e. the raise in the Louisville Water Bill, not to mention dealing with the situation for longer. If the job is scheduled for January, maybe we could do a pro-rate for the time frame until it is done. If you agree to these terms, we would like an amendment to the original lease drawn up and signed by you, and sent in the mail for us to also sign and return a copy to you. As stated, we are not trying to specifically cause any grievance or rift between you and us, it is simply a matter of what is law and fair. We feel the services that should be provided by paying full rent are not there as promised. Therefore we should not be charged the full rental amount of $750.00. Please let us know at your earliest convenience via email response as to your decision about the matters at hand at your earliest convenience.

Aside from the rent money and the weatherization, there are a few more things we needed to communicate about:

A) The old vintage fridge has still not been picked up by LGE. I know you said it would be two weeks at max, but that would be in two days so I wanted to give you a heads up about that.

B)We have noticed that there is not a fireplace rope seal for the door of it, which is not only needed for safety reasons, but also for proper usage of the fireplace.

C) We wanted to reiterate what we have requested and stated to you several times before which is that we not only highly prefer a 48 hour notice before coming to the Holsclaw House, it is also law. Shannon and I both shouldn't always have to be prepared on a dime to drop what we are doing because it happens to fit your schedule. We have a schedule as well. Shannon also suffers greatly from PTSD, high levels of anxiety, and it is very difficult for him to engage in unexpected encounters. As you know us fairly well by now as tenants, we keep the place well, and just prefer the privacy. It is part of why anyone pays rent for their home. You may email me here or text me at the number # which is my cell phone during reasonable hours.

D) We are confused about the issue of the chainsaw. When we first rented the place, Billy said he would provide a working chainsaw for free for us to use to saw the downed wood on the property that has been agreed upon. When given the first chainsaw that did not work (needed serious repairs) and was not safe since it did not have a guard/or a chain stop, you then repaired another chainsaw for us to use. It was not until waiting for then months on end for a working chainsaw that we were given one to use a few weeks ago. During those two weeks we have a had a major holiday (Thanksgiving) and several days of rain. Why is it that all the sudden we have a time limit on the chainsaw? Yet again, this is part and parcel of how we are trying to heat the home. Shannon has done a lot of work with it thus far, but we are running through wood fast due to the heating issue. It would help us out greatly to be able to continue to use the chainsaw through December so we can finish the work we started.

I know this is a rather large email and it will take some time to come to a few decisions and write us back. Please let me reiterate that being a landlord and renting out property is a business. You supply the house/property in good working order and we pay you rent. If I were to write you and say "sorry, we want to use rent on personal things so you don't get it this month" you wouldn't like that either. We want fairness in the situation, and that is all we are asking.

Thank you in advance for your time and efforts.

Sincerely, Julia & Shannon

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Mike CumbieBusiness Member
REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y

Hi @Lisa Casey,

My couple points.

1) I would recommend following the lease to the letter for rent etc

2) I would not allow her to decide "When little adjustments need to be made for the rent". From the tone of her letter it sounds like every month she is taking some money off here and there and deciding when she should and shouldn't. If she needs something fixed she can contact you. For the remainder of the lease I would fix everything myself or send someone out. Do not give her the power to change her rent at will.

3) What is causing them to be removed from the house for a day to stay with family? You might want to consult your lease/local law, it may only be 1/30th assuming it is something that you forced her to lose access to the house.

4) All my discussions with her would be as short as possible. Make sure they simply state facts. No opinions or long winded posts. Simple like "Contractor will be there at 1:00PM on January 4th to fix hole in driveway".

5) She knows a whole lot about you and your family on a personal level and has no problem bringing things up if it suits her needs. I would ensure she did not have any additional information from you. I also would not be in conversations where she had that opportunity again, I would be business only (but polite). It sounds like you guys were friendly and able to stop over and grab things or take care of things and they took it as an invasion. Ensure you are not getting that close.

6) If sending a inspector or contractor make sure you specify that they are not to discuss the work with the tenant. This whole situation was actually caused because you got a free home efficiency inspection and the guy went out and played the sales game on your tenants. He was telling them how bad everything was and what all needed to be done and how they were going to die if they didn't get this changed. Had that company had any professionalism they would not have been discussing these things with them and instead with the owner.

Just my two cents and good luck!

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  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2015 · 109 posts · 41 votes
    10y

    Assuming your lease says they agree to accept the property "as is" which nearly all leases do you only have to repair things that were good when they moved in. Not anything that wasn't there when they moved in.

    Personally I would carefully try to find a way to get rid of them. CAREFULLY. The first thing I would do (before trying to evict them) is "offer" to let them out of the lease without penalty since neither one of you is happy with the situation.

    I know a landlord who put the question on his rental application "What is the name of your lawyer?" and if they answer it he doesn't rent to them. One threat of legal action (even subtle ones) and I start carefully trying to figure out a legal way to get rid of the tenants and that letter has a bunch of them. But be very careful because loosing an eviction case is really bad. I did it once and do not plan on ever doing it again.

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    For written contact with the tenants I would limit it to basic facts, make it short and sweet it will serve you best in the end.    You think you are being nice telling people things but they will use it against you so be careful what information you share. Personally telling them every contractor name that did work to me was too much information. It is like you are reporting to them. I also don't like tenants to talk to contractors when on site,contractors say things that get misinterpreted. 

    I would reiterate you will respect the 48 hours notice and that rent should be paid per the contract on the first of the month.  While you have set a precedent there is nothing to say you can't tell them otherwise now (in a court you might not win but it is about setting expectations now).   If they bring up their situation on employment again  I would go so far as saying you realize their source of income to pay the rent  is a topic on which they do not wish you to intrude and you will respect that.   

    In future leases consider  providing  the boundaries to the rental property as being less then the full 18 acres so that notice is not required for what they are not "renting" especially if you are doing tree cutting etc.    We specify in the lease about a one acre area and give the exact boundaries and go over it verbally. The other 4 acres we make clear they have use of.   The other thing we have done is  indicate that landscapers may enter the exterior of the property to provide service without notice when we are providing this service.  It works well for us and eliminates notice for minor maintenance of trees and lawn care.  For major stuff we try to give the same notice but we are not obligated to 48 hours.  

    It seems nice to loan a chainsaw but basically it  is not equipment I would take a risk on in case they get hurt.  If it isn't in the lease I would rescind the offer.

    Given the tone without major changes this tenancy won't renew so if they continue having trouble paying I would offer an out.  I think they lost sight of the fact that its your property.   That's me, I wish you luck.

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    The tenant has many good points.  Especially by starting out saying your medical issues and financial issues have no bearing on your landlord duties or contractual agreements.  Why in the world are you giving them that information?  Indeed, it's your house, your verbal and contractual agreements and your responsibility to do what you said you would do. 

    If the issue is money and you cannot properly weatherize the house, then why not offer to reduce the rent or let them out of their lease?  If you can't do what you said you would do, then make it clear that it won't be happening and you are open to a different solution.

    Lending tenants a chainsaw?  How could that even be a thing? Tenants and chainsaws and lending don't go together in a sentence, let alone in real life.

     !This made me almost spit my coffee!

    Original poster: you are right in that you set up a chain of bad precedent, most notably by allowing the tenants to drag the rent along. I like all my tenants (so far!), but running these rentals is a business. No rent by the 5th = notice to quit. If a tenant needs an extra day or two to make the rent ONCE, that's fine as long as *they* took responsibility of making and keeping the arrangement - and I'm talking a day or two, not two weeks. A tenant that is that late with the rent will never recover and will be late or a non-payer from then forward. As soon as I have to contact a tenant about the rent not being paid, they are on notice, because paid or not, the next time around that the rent is more than 5 days late will be a "Pay or Quit" proceeding. 

    Getting the right tenants and setting the right expectation happens before they move in. Pardon the french, but my tenants understand from the get-go that it is no ******** with me. You pay on time, and keep the place nice, and I go out of my way to make sure you have a very pleasant experience - fixing emergencies immediately; adding little upgrades here and there, etc. You don't pay on time and you can expect to be on the street in short order. You can't be soft and then be mad at the tenant for taking advantage of the fact that you're soft. People smell vulnerability, and it is a select few that will let it slide - humans are predators, and if you give off a weak impression you are going to be taken down the road. 

    Skyline Properties
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  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y

    PS: Never promise something you can't deliver. Provide as little information as possible about the running of your business. By telling the tenant someone was coming to insulate and then it not happening forever, you set a bad tone in their head. By giving them the place "as is", and then having someone show up (with notice, of course) to insulate so that "their energy bills will be lower", you become a hero, someone who is looking out for the tenant. Same exact outcome, different set of expectations. Promise nothing & deliver everything, not the other way around. 

    Skyline Properties
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  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Thank you all for the input and advice.  A couple more things.  When we installed the close foam polyurethane insulation, the contractor said that the tenants could not be there for 24 hours after because of the fumes it would emit.  The tenants said they were taking off $50 off their rent because they had to stay with a relative, and paid me $700 vs $750 on Dec 11th. I never said yes or no to this but I felt it was reasonable even though the insulation cost  me $2700.  Another complaint was the removal of the old refrigerator.  We are having it picked up by LG&E contractor through the rebate program.  It is sitting outside the house. We told our tenants it would be picked up on the 15th  a week ago but would not know the time till the day before.  It is a vintage fridge and we plan on removing some items we can use as we restore old appliances and such.  I sent this note yesterday 24 hour notice and got a response from tenant.  Should I respond or let it go?

    On Dec 14, 2015 2:06 PM, "Lisa Casey"
    Julia and Shannon,

    Just got the call for the refrigerator pick up time. It will be picked up between 2:15 and 4:15 PM Tues Dec 15th. Billy will be coming up between 1:30 and 2 to remove some items we want to keep: drawers, shelving etc. He can plug it in, but, someone over 18 has to be there to sign off on the removal.
    He can stay and wait to for them to come, but, if you prefer and are available either of you can do the sign off.
    Let me know to confirm
    Thanks,
    Lisa Casey

    Tenant Response:

    Lisa, One of us will be here to plug in the refridgerator an hour before and to sign off on it. It was our understanding LGE would be here only, not Billy. This is certainly not a 48 hour notice nor an emergency. Since it is easier for us to have Billy to come tomorrow anyway it is fine this time. It will however not always be fine. We do expect that to be upheld in the future and I'm not sure why there is still confusion about giving a 48 hour notice. Thanks, Julia and Shannon

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    One more thing, I know the laws in Ky state 24-48 hour notice and I have no problem with that, but our signed lease does state:

    Owners will be allowed to access the property to make repairs or work the land/cut grass, etc. at their own convenience.  

    as one of the conditions of the lease.

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    My thought what are they hiding? or are they just passive aggressive?

    I don't know Kentucky law  but I am not sure your language is specific enough to allow entry without notice, in RI if the language is not within the law it doesn't hold up.  If you came to mow the lawn and that was a service defined in the lease I would think that would be different.  In this case though it seems you gave notice to them.

    In responding I would just say that you  had  mentioned the pickup to them but unfortunately LGE did not give significant advance notice of the specific time.   Because you did not get great notice on time  you assumed you would be making yourselves available to be there and would take care of this at that time.  Apologize for any inconvenience to them (no matter how unreasonable you think they are).  

    I would also  make it clear that when workmen come notice to enter means that your presence may also occur to help/inspect etc. not sure if I would include that now but I would in the next notice.    Does Kentucky have an official form of notice to enter, if so send it each time from now on.

    Did you retrieve the chain saw?

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Collen, 

    I would gladly give them an out but the truth is they do not want one. They love the property and have told us many times. When they say jump, I think my response should be "how high?" LOL

    I think it is passive aggressive, and entitlement, and yes, the problem I have most is, like you said, they have lost sight over who owns the property.  As a side note, we have rented this property for about 8 years to several people no issues or complaints. For the last 4 years we were renovating it and using it on weekends ourselves. The property was not even for rent when they drove by it, but asked if they could rent it from us as it was exactly what they were looking for.  

    Yes we did retrieve the chain saw, it was not in the lease.

     My husband met with the insulation contractor and,  the tenants had no reason to be involved. Shannon, is always there.  He has told us he has PTSD  and is very particular to what kind of work he will or can do. He lost his job of 8 months, a few weeks after moving in. He kept following my husband and contractor and pointing out where he thought we needed to add insulation and talking about much wood he was burning in the buck stove. My husband is a man of few words when he is around him so not to encourage his constant chatter. He asked him several times to let him work with the contractor to no avail.

    As far as the refrigerator goes, it is sitting outside, we replaced it with another one cause somehow the door got broken and would not shut properly. We did not ask any questions just replaced it, when we found out.

    There is no need to enter the house as the fridge is sitting outside and there is an outside electric outlet to plug it in.

    I did tell the tenants a week ago that the pick up would be on the 15th but we would not know the time until they call us the day before the pick up date and we had no control over their policy .

    There is a official KY notice form to enter that I will use from now on.

    Thank you for your advice.  We also rent out 2 other places and have not had any problems, so this has been a learning experience, I do not want to repeat.

  • Augusta, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    I agree with Jacqueline and I would have copies of the appropriate Pay or Quit notices handy.  Shannon isn't ever going to find another job and when the good graces of whomever has been helping these folks out financially runs dry you'll likely be evicting them.

    I'm assuming these folks are on a one year lease, correct?  Will their lease be renewed?


    Gail

  • Jennifer T.Pro Member
    Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 944 votes
    10y

    Ugh, yeah, that last response is just silly.  They're obviously annoyed the refrigerator is there because they have mentioned it a couple times in their other correspondence.  You all notified them when it was being picked up as soon as you all knew, yet she's still going to complain?  Although I have found the majority of her correspondence to be professional and well-written, that last one was just petty.

    I'm going to hijack your thread a bit to vent and let you know I've made some mistakes with tenants recently also.

    To an extent, I'm in the same situation you are.  So far, I've only rented out the other side of my duplex (though I did just purchase another).  I have always had GREAT tenants.  I let my guard down a bit this time around, because it was summer and I just didn't have the plethora of applicants I usually do.

    I let them move-in with a partial security deposit to be made up two weeks later.  My first mistake.  That was three months ago and I've only gotten $100 more toward it.  I don't want to go into details, but they had a legitimate pretty terrible financial setback due to no fault of their own (I checked it) on their second month.  I was extremely leery, but gave them a huge break and let them pay over the month.  They didn't finish paying all of that month until the last day.

    I thought we'd start the new month, this current month with a fresh slate now that they are all caught up with me and their other bills...plus they'd been repaid most of what had erroneously been taken out of their account.  Nope.  Paid $800/$1100 with a promise I would receive the other $300 on the 5th (which is actually 8 days late).  Nope.  Now its the 15th when one of the tenants gets paid again.  Except I had to go knocking on the door on the 8th to even find that out.

    My take-away is, I don't get the impression they are bad people who don't want to pay the rent...however, they have also made it very clear with their actions that they also don't put a priority on paying the rent.  I think they just don't budget well and are in over their head...though they do make 3x the rent.

    It is a shame when a bit of kindness and understanding is taken for weakness...though, in the past with my previous tenants, that attitude has worked out well.  But obviously not with these folks and, although I've never had to do it before, I just have no choice but to start issuing 5-day Pay or Quit notices when they fall behind.  In my state, 5 days is required.

    Funny enough, I usually require a 1-year lease but they requested a 6-month one and I agreed to it.  Now I'm glad as there is no way I am renewing it, so I only have to put up with this constantly wrangling for rent for two more months. 

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Jennifer, thanks for sharing your frustration. I know I am not the only one out there.

       I actually do not think my tenants are "bad" people either, but Julia is kind of like a mother to her boyfriend Shannon.  She is very nurturing and protective of him...they are both in mid 30s.  They supposed lived "Off the Grid" for 2 years in Maine and that is why they so badly wanted to rent this house, which is also adjacent to a County Memorial Forest.

    Yes they have a one year lease that is up in July 1st, and no, it will not be renewed much to their surprise.  They think they are perfect tenants.

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 20 votes
    10y

    What a mess!  I would suggest you and/or your husband should always have someone with you when you go over there now (48 hours notice!).  Not only for legal reasons but also for your safety.  And you really should get some help from someone who really knows the law on these issues of payment, notice to quit, your capacity to inspect the property for what remains of the term.  Do they not want you there because the relationship has soured, or could they be up to something else?  Who knows at this point, but I think you are well outside the bounds of DIY legal at this point.  Pay now or pay later...unfortunately it may be both.

  • Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Lisa Casey:

    Thank you all for the input and advice.  A couple more things.  When we installed the close foam polyurethane insulation, the contractor said that the tenants could not be there for 24 hours after because of the fumes it would emit.  The tenants said they were taking off $50 off their rent because they had to stay with a relative, and paid me $700 vs $750 on Dec 11th. I never said yes or no to this but I felt it was reasonable even though the insulation cost  me $2700.  Another complaint was the removal of the old refrigerator.  We are having it picked up by LG&E contractor through the rebate program.  It is sitting outside the house. We told our tenants it would be picked up on the 15th  a week ago but would not know the time till the day before.  It is a vintage fridge and we plan on removing some items we can use as we restore old appliances and such.  I sent this note yesterday 24 hour notice and got a response from tenant.  Should I respond or let it go?

    On Dec 14, 2015 2:06 PM, "Lisa Casey"
    Julia and Shannon,

    Just got the call for the refrigerator pick up time. It will be picked up between 2:15 and 4:15 PM Tues Dec 15th. Billy will be coming up between 1:30 and 2 to remove some items we want to keep: drawers, shelving etc. He can plug it in, but, someone over 18 has to be there to sign off on the removal.
    He can stay and wait to for them to come, but, if you prefer and are available either of you can do the sign off.
    Let me know to confirm
    Thanks,
    Lisa Casey

    Tenant Response:

    Lisa, One of us will be here to plug in the refridgerator an hour before and to sign off on it. It was our understanding LGE would be here only, not Billy. This is certainly not a 48 hour notice nor an emergency. Since it is easier for us to have Billy to come tomorrow anyway it is fine this time. It will however not always be fine. We do expect that to be upheld in the future and I'm not sure why there is still confusion about giving a 48 hour notice. Thanks, Julia and Shannon

    As I read more of the correspondence from Julia and the escalation, I can empathize with your frustration! Although I wouldn't classify these tenants as from hell (I've seen worse), they do come with a significant drama and an unpleasant communication style that is quite manipulative. Whoa!  

    With the additional information you share here about the fumes, I understand the tenant had a legitimate basis for receiving compensation and why you went along with it. However, it does not sit well with me the manner in which the tenant took control of determining how the compensation would be done. It does not bode well for the future either. A cleaner way to handle this kind of situation would be for the tenant to pay the rent in full when due (December 1 or at least according to the timeline on the Pay Rent or Quit notice) and for you to provide compensation back to them for the inconvenience and loss of use of the property for the 24 hours. Better paper trail too. It is never okay with us to let a tenant deduct what they feel they are entitled to from the rent unless they have followed the exact procedure to do so as outlined in the landlord-tenant law for our jurisdiction. What is allowable and customary in your jurisdiction?

    How did it go with the pick-up of the refrigerator and the retrieval of the parts? Landlord-tenant law will trump anything you have in your lease agreement, but having amicable cooperation from tenants is key to a good landlord-tenant relationship. These tenants are operating out-of-bounds on that score. Sheesh! Keep calm and carry on! Good luck!

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    Lisa, Good luck, I had tenants quite a bit like this ,  not wanting anyone in the property. It went to a point where there were several reschedules to get repairs  done from our end and formal notice to them worked better for getting access.  They were both on disability (his was temporary) so it should have been easy to schedule. On their side if they considered something a priority there was a crisis calling to get something done right away.  They loved the place but they left without notice supposedly for financial reasons wanting a walk through in the middle of my vacation.  The big problem was the repairs due to their unwillingness to call us. Do make sure you schedule inspections, we had unreported plumbing issues and a roof leak not reported.

  • Investor · Canton, GA · Member since 2014 · 728 posts · 500 votes
    10y

    No offense, but you have lost all control over this relationship.

    You will have no peace, and will be continually whip sawn by these tenants as you have handed over the keys to the kingdom to them. The only way you will ever really get the "keys" back is to not have them as tenants in your property. Count this as "paying tuition" and learn from your experience of how not to manage tenants. Plan to legally separate them from the property at the first opportunity. By no means renew a lease with them. All of us that have ever had to manage tenants have at some point pooped in our own sandbox, and it is always because we try to be nice to tenants, and then they treat you like a door mat for your kindness. Learn from the experience, and prosper from it.

    Unfortunately, you have to be like a Parris Island, Marine Drill Sargent with tenants, but without the yelling. You have to be hardened and impenetrable. You have a business to run, and every tenant you will ever have will gladly help you run it in the ground ... if you let them. Tenants are not your friends anymore than an employee should be your friend. Understand the dynamics of the relationship you are entering into, and stick to the rules of separation.

  • Homeowner · VISTA, CA · Member since 2015 · 727 posts · 340 votes
    10y

    The TENANTS FROM HELL. We've all had to deal with them at one time or another. While I have empathy and do sympathize with your dire situation. But one of the first things that I learned very early on as a property/owner/manager is to leave my bleeding heart at home and volunteer absolutely nothing. 

    Unfortunately this may well be an expensive and untimely lesson for you. But use it constructively and realize that before you do rent a property to anyone you had better make sure that it's in MOVE IN CONDITION. Or you may very well be reliving this very unpleasant saga. 

    Good luck and try to make it a very Merry Christmas and a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous 2016!

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Thanks again for all the input and advice.  My husband removed items from the refrigerator without incident, the tenant did not come outside at the time he was there.  As far as I know, after he left the refrigerator was picked up as I did not get any calls from LG&E that it was not signed off on.  

    I am going to be to be very strict on the rent being on time, and stay calm, and not take it personally.  Also stay away as much as possible, and give a letter of 48hr notice anytime we need to access the property.  Julia often encloses a written letter with her payments and has thanked me over and over for being patient with the rent,  also underlined she is working extra hours to make the rent payment (like it is my fault).  I actually think she is unhappy with Shannon not getting a job but does not want to upset him or lose him. So she is transferring her anger to me.  That is OK, but it has gone too far and I am going to do everything according to the law and get rid of them when the opportunity presents itself.

    I do have a friend that rents about 50 apts here is Louisville and has evicted about 11 times and knows the KY laws.  Of course he does not put up with any crap.  He just laughed when I showed him some of the emails I had from from tenants.

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Update on Tenants...sorry in advance for the long story

    I am updating the latest on my tenants and asking for advice although I am pretty sure I will be told not to give them any more chances.  We started  a one yr. lease with  Julia and Shannon July 1st, 2015.  Shannon lost his job in Aug. and has not found a new job.  Rent has been consistently late for 6 months but we were trying to work with them until the nasty emails started coming. They were paid up in Dec 2015. 

    January 1st, 2016 Per lease agreement: Rent of $750 is due on or before Jan1st, 2016. *Rent has been consistently late for the last 5 months, with promise to become current

    January 2nd, 2016 Email notice sent (tenant's requested method of communication) to tenant, to pay rent in full by January 8th. Received no response so also called tenant January 5th about late rent and was told it would be paid on the 8th

    January 8th, 2016 Partial Payment made without approval of landlord January 8th. Tenant left $450 in door mailbox with hand written letter and promise to pay remaining balance asap. Also that Julia lost her job on Jan 3rd..... Landlord tried to call both Shannon and Julia several times to discuss rent but no answer. Received email from Julia Lynch the next day Jan.9th, asking landlord not to contact them by phone unless it is an emergency. see below

    Hi Billy and Lisa,

    Shannon and I are not always able to answer our phone and prefer an email if the situation is not an emergency. We have a lot going on at moment per explanation given in the note w our money order yesterday. We also had a death in the family yesterday evening and may not always be in a place for a phone call. Please email us here if you need to contact us. Thank you, Julia & Shannon

    Sent certified mail "7 day Notice to pay or Quit" (by Jan 18th) on Jan 11th, also tried to hand deliver notice, no answer so taped notice to the door and also sent same notice by email to cover all bases.

    Tenant reply below:

    Bill and Lisa Casey,

    I am writing to inform you that neither sending this information to us by email nor just taping the Notice to Pay on the door is sufficient. I do not even have to inform you of this, but per the advise I have been given, I am writing to tell you that the 7 days notice to quit must be hand delivered or sent by certified mail to be legally binding. We did not see the notice til late last night because we were out of town due to a death in the family, AS I HAD INFORMED YOU OF in the email. So its not exactly a "7 days" notice now is it?! Per the Legal Aid Network of KY: If the reason the landlord says the tenant has to move is because of nonpayment of rent, the landlord must give at least 7 days notice. For any other reason, they must give 14 days notice. The notice must be in writing, either hand-delivered or sent by registered/certified mail.

    Julia  & Shannon

    The law says we must send "notice to quit" by certified mail and we did on Jan 11th. It does not matter if they were gone or not. So we went to step 2 of the eviction process

    In response we filed petition to evict with the court system and got a court date for Feb 10th which was served to them by the Sheriff.

    No response or communication from tenant until yesterday sending a text to ck my email asap to get paid the rest of Jan. rent


    Sent: Wed, Jan 27, 2016 11:26 am

    Subject: w9

    Ms. Casey

    Ms. Lynch has recently applied for financial assistance with our agency for her January’s rent. We are able to assist her with the amount of $400.00 contingent final approval. I am sending you a W9 so that we can issue a voucher to you on her behalf. If you should have any questions and or concerns, please contact my office

    Paulina Michaud

    Senior Social Worker

    Should I just ignore this letter and proceed with the eviction? The Social Worker told me the tenants are eligible for $300 in Feb and March also, and gave me a big sob story on how scared she was and how hard they are trying to pay.  (But as you see in mt tenant's emails she has not been crying on my shoulder.)  Our lease is very poor and has no late fees, no animal fees, they started with 2 cats which we approved and then added a dog.   No boundaries on the 18 acre property.  We thought about writing a new very strict lease (month to month) to cover all the bases and have them agree to it but I feel I am just setting myself up for more stress and failure. 

    Tell me how stupid I am for even considering this route, just need some support.

  • Mike CumbieBusiness Member
    REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    Hi @Lisa Casey,

    I have been wondering how this has been going, I am learning from your experience, while that may not be much help to you I appreciate you sharing it. At this point though they have representation. Their representation knows all of the laws well and I am sure has gone over the lease with them, what they can and cannot to. It may be in your best interest to get your own.

    Just my thoughts and good luck

  • Durham, NC · Member since 2013 · 502 posts · 215 votes
    10y

    Get them out as soon as legally possible. They are "experienced" tenants and the flow of excuses will never stop. A concession of their side is executed only to keep you in the game. This is my 2 cents.

  • Investor · Socal · Member since 2015 · 222 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    Sign of the times; the tenant must have spent hours/days/weeks writing this book/synopsis  I mean grievance letter including all the references to law; my first thought is at least one adult in the household is chronically unemployed?

    From the depth they go into the details of the house and the history. I would assume this is a long term lease for years, like 5 or 10! Is it? I'd be flabbergasted if this is just a month to month lease or for just one year, since the writing seems to wreak of some sort of obsession with your property rather than a temporary use of it.

    A verbal permission to continually borrow the used chainsaw turned into a complaint about it now being an inadequate lease thereof in itself highlights this case overall.

    Wonder if your tenants are BPers by now.. or just silently lurking? Would not be surprised if they show up on here to tell their 'side'.

    It has become so cliche for todays relationships to go out with a 'bang'; like country, like people?

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Thank you for all the responses....Neil you hit the nail on the head, great insight. When we first rented Shannon was very proud to tell us he was working at his current job, cutting wood at a privately owned very small furniture shop, for 8 months!  That set off a warning signal for me but I choose to ignore it. All their references checked out.

    The emails which I included tell their "side"

    Not familiar with the term BPers? They have a one year lease that started July 1, 2015, so they have only been in the house for 7 months.  They seemed to have lost sight of who owns the property and feel entitled to every thing we own.  There is an obsession with the property, for sure.  They let everyone know they lived "off the grid" for 2 years, so having a country house, we thought, would be perfect for them.   Lending them things to help them out has only caused problems of why we want the items back. Shannon says he has PTSD, but as far as I know not on disability.  

  • Attorney · Winchester, VA · Member since 2015 · 726 posts · 387 votes
    10y

    Have you reached out to an attorney to represent you in this matter OP? Based on some of the things the Tenant brings up, I do think it may well be in your best interest to pursue representation at this time; especially if they hire counsel.

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    I have the name of an attorney, from a long time ky investor, but have not reached out. The laws in Ky from what I have researched are pretty landlord friendly.  

  • Attorney · Winchester, VA · Member since 2015 · 726 posts · 387 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Lisa Casey:

    I have the name of an attorney, from a long time ky investor, but have not reached out. The laws in Ky from what I have researched are pretty landlord friendly.  

     Oh, I have no doubt that the laws are very landlord friendly. I'm more concerned about some issues of contract I saw in your initial post. As much as I would like to explain things like "course of dealing", "novation", "oral assurances", "excuse of nonperformance", and other legal concepts, I'm not able to since I am not licensed in your state. Good luck with your case, and hopefully the other side doesn't get an attorney.

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