Entitled Tenants from hell....but my mistake for being "nice"

Entitled Tenants from hell....but my mistake for being "nice"

Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes

I have a small house on 18 acres.   We have rented it out 5 times with no complaints.  In the last 4 years we we have totally renovated it adding a sun room, new HVAC, electrical, plumbing, and refinishing floors, refurbished the buck stove etc. you get the picture. When the new tenants moved in July 2014.  I told them I have done everything but upgrade the insulation and that was on my list to get done.  A month after they moved in her boyfriend lost his job and since has not found another.  I have accepted late and partial rent ($750) with no late fees for the past 5 months.  I know... 1st mistake and been way too nice lending them things.   They have paid in full by the end of each month but then, I get this email from her.  I responded with an eviction notice, which I received another tenant email after that... just as long as this one as to why I was so angry and being unfair.

Hello Lisa & Billy,

Shannon and I write you today in a spirit of compromise and cooperation in hopes that there can be a consensus about the current situation at the Holsclaw House that we rent from you. Though it is understood from your recent email about your medical issue and current financial situation that it is not the best time of year for you to be fixing the weatherization of our rental, it is also law for you to upkeep your rental as duties of being our landlords. To be frank, no matter what is going on with your end, the upkeep and safety of the rental is your responsibility. We believe it is none of our business the personal decisions you are making about your own home or the business decisions of other rentals, if you are not able to upkeep the house we are renting, you are not able to charge us the full rent originally agreed upon. This is not personal, it is law. It was noticed, but not yet abundantly clear until the inspection was done to completion, the reasoning for our high utilities from the beginning. We were wondering why the house had difficultly keeping the cool air from the Air Conditioning in summer when we did run it. And now we know. I was sincerely shocked to understand that there are whole large sections of the roof from the attic ceiling that are just exposed tin---no wood or insulation at all, where it would be needed most. It is no wonder we are not able to keep heat in this house. Let alone the discovery that the insulation--or what is a crumbled mess left of it in the walls are at least 30-50 years old (per inspector)--so large sections of the house is as if not insulated at all. Billy also mentioned you have had the pipes freeze and burst under the house in recent years, and you can easily see why. Most of the pipes are exposed and not at all insulated, while the ones remaining with insulation have very old, half falling off foam. The gentleman from the first inspection in August mentioned the piles of filter material lay sitting in the attic-especially near the chimney area are a fire hazard and should be removed. This is all especially alarming with the knowledge there has been a fire in the house before. Though it may have been quite some time ago, there is little to no upkeep to the weatherization of this house, other than the working fire place and the option to run the Central Heat/Air full blast. It is simply not acceptable whatsoever that your answer to us is to "DIY" the house when it is not our responsibility. That is why we pay you rent. It is not our home to upkeep in that manner.

When you showed us the rental, and upon move in on more than one occasion, I (Julia) spoke to you both about the weather stripping needed for some of the older windows and both the front & back door. I asked if we should do it ourselves then and deduct the cost off rent. I said I was however afraid to do it ourselves anyway since it is a historic home and I don't want to mess up any of the paint and or moulding on the house. You said you planned on getting a weatherization/energy inspection anyhow, and that it would be taken care of. Now we are told to "DIY" and to just apply to utility assistance programs. It's not going to happen. There is also confusion on our end as to the problem of financial timing on your end. The first,though not fully complete, inspection was done on August 27th. We heard nothing from you two about it after until the scheduled appointment to actually do the work in November. Then all the sudden you cannot afford to do any of it? You had from August to November to prepare for the weatherization of this home.

I understand that this is a vacation home for you two, and that you may have not spent too much time there in the winter to understand how it is there, but we rented this house with your promise that it is a year round ready rental, and that you were going to do the weatherization inspection and follow through with it. We are already experiencing nights--and have been off and on for weeks now, where the weather has reached freezing and below. According to several sections of the Landlord Tenant Act, it is your sole duty to A) make all repairs and do whatever is necessary to put and maintain the premises in a fit and habitable condition B) Maintain in good working order and condition the all heating/ventilation C) Supply reasonable heat and running hot water between October 1st-May 1st. We would really really like to have the pipes insulated so that we don't encounter the problem of no water or hot water if they burst. It would be costly for you to repair as well.

We have made sure you have been paid full rent every single month, though the condition of the home has not been up kept (i.e. weatherized). We are also concerned about the safety issues of the attic. As stated before, writing with a spirit of compromise and cooperation, we would like this email to be considered a thirty day notice to please weatherize the house in accordance with the inspection given by Energy Savers Company on November 23rd. In the meantime, we would like to open up a written dialogue (via email here) as to the fairness of charging us full rent until the weatherization can happen. We would like to propose paying $500 for the month of December, so that leaves us a $250 window for the significant increase in the LGE Bill and the need to drip the water at night when it gets cold enough, i.e. the raise in the Louisville Water Bill, not to mention dealing with the situation for longer. If the job is scheduled for January, maybe we could do a pro-rate for the time frame until it is done. If you agree to these terms, we would like an amendment to the original lease drawn up and signed by you, and sent in the mail for us to also sign and return a copy to you. As stated, we are not trying to specifically cause any grievance or rift between you and us, it is simply a matter of what is law and fair. We feel the services that should be provided by paying full rent are not there as promised. Therefore we should not be charged the full rental amount of $750.00. Please let us know at your earliest convenience via email response as to your decision about the matters at hand at your earliest convenience.

Aside from the rent money and the weatherization, there are a few more things we needed to communicate about:

A) The old vintage fridge has still not been picked up by LGE. I know you said it would be two weeks at max, but that would be in two days so I wanted to give you a heads up about that.

B)We have noticed that there is not a fireplace rope seal for the door of it, which is not only needed for safety reasons, but also for proper usage of the fireplace.

C) We wanted to reiterate what we have requested and stated to you several times before which is that we not only highly prefer a 48 hour notice before coming to the Holsclaw House, it is also law. Shannon and I both shouldn't always have to be prepared on a dime to drop what we are doing because it happens to fit your schedule. We have a schedule as well. Shannon also suffers greatly from PTSD, high levels of anxiety, and it is very difficult for him to engage in unexpected encounters. As you know us fairly well by now as tenants, we keep the place well, and just prefer the privacy. It is part of why anyone pays rent for their home. You may email me here or text me at the number # which is my cell phone during reasonable hours.

D) We are confused about the issue of the chainsaw. When we first rented the place, Billy said he would provide a working chainsaw for free for us to use to saw the downed wood on the property that has been agreed upon. When given the first chainsaw that did not work (needed serious repairs) and was not safe since it did not have a guard/or a chain stop, you then repaired another chainsaw for us to use. It was not until waiting for then months on end for a working chainsaw that we were given one to use a few weeks ago. During those two weeks we have a had a major holiday (Thanksgiving) and several days of rain. Why is it that all the sudden we have a time limit on the chainsaw? Yet again, this is part and parcel of how we are trying to heat the home. Shannon has done a lot of work with it thus far, but we are running through wood fast due to the heating issue. It would help us out greatly to be able to continue to use the chainsaw through December so we can finish the work we started.

I know this is a rather large email and it will take some time to come to a few decisions and write us back. Please let me reiterate that being a landlord and renting out property is a business. You supply the house/property in good working order and we pay you rent. If I were to write you and say "sorry, we want to use rent on personal things so you don't get it this month" you wouldn't like that either. We want fairness in the situation, and that is all we are asking.

Thank you in advance for your time and efforts.

Sincerely, Julia & Shannon

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Mike CumbieBusiness Member
REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y

Hi @Lisa Casey,

My couple points.

1) I would recommend following the lease to the letter for rent etc

2) I would not allow her to decide "When little adjustments need to be made for the rent". From the tone of her letter it sounds like every month she is taking some money off here and there and deciding when she should and shouldn't. If she needs something fixed she can contact you. For the remainder of the lease I would fix everything myself or send someone out. Do not give her the power to change her rent at will.

3) What is causing them to be removed from the house for a day to stay with family? You might want to consult your lease/local law, it may only be 1/30th assuming it is something that you forced her to lose access to the house.

4) All my discussions with her would be as short as possible. Make sure they simply state facts. No opinions or long winded posts. Simple like "Contractor will be there at 1:00PM on January 4th to fix hole in driveway".

5) She knows a whole lot about you and your family on a personal level and has no problem bringing things up if it suits her needs. I would ensure she did not have any additional information from you. I also would not be in conversations where she had that opportunity again, I would be business only (but polite). It sounds like you guys were friendly and able to stop over and grab things or take care of things and they took it as an invasion. Ensure you are not getting that close.

6) If sending a inspector or contractor make sure you specify that they are not to discuss the work with the tenant. This whole situation was actually caused because you got a free home efficiency inspection and the guy went out and played the sales game on your tenants. He was telling them how bad everything was and what all needed to be done and how they were going to die if they didn't get this changed. Had that company had any professionalism they would not have been discussing these things with them and instead with the owner.

Just my two cents and good luck!

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  • Real Estate Consultant · Chapmansboro, TN · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 8 votes
    10y

    Though it is a bit late for this situation, I thought I would share a few tips that I use and in doing so, have eliminated most hassles from "problem tenants" -

    1 - Rule #1, Never let them know you own the property. I maintain the rental property in a land trust with one of my LLC's as the "management company", I simply "work" for the LLC. Since this allows you to distance the the owner from the tenant, it eliminates the sob stories most of the time as you are simply "doing your job". It also gives you a breather delay should they request anything, you can simply let them know you will check with the owner and get back to them.

    2 - I have found in several jurisdictions that the courts will often side with the tenant over the landlord whenever possible (though this has improved in recent years die to excessive abuse by tenants), Many times it is difficult to collect late fees and security for damages even when the  lease violation or default is proven. Typically, when a court awards to the Landlord, they will allow for the rent only. What we do is actually include the late fee in the rental amount and offer a discount for on-time payment. For instance, if we want $950/mo for rent and a $100 late fee, the lease would be for $1050/month due on the 1st and offer them a $100 discount if received by the 5th. Sounds simple, but it works if you need to go to court.

    3 - For SF properties, I typically do not keep them more than 2 or 3 years, as a result I will typically sell them as a rent-to own (with written agreements of course).
    The advantage to this is:
    1st - I let the tenant understand they are going to be "owners" here, they are responsible for the general maintenance and repairs of the property, we don't get the calls for leaky faucets, clogged toilets, etc.
    2nd- In our agreement, the tenant forfeits any and all credits including rent credits and option fees if they are late on any month's rent payment (this one is subject to the "owners" discretion on enforcement - we have allowed an exception under specific and reasonable situations), this has proven to eliminate issues.

    Again, obviously this is late for Lisa's situation - but hopefully it will be some help to others in the future.

  • Rental Property Investor · Rochester, NY · Member since 2014 · 55 posts · 21 votes
    10y

    You need to charge late fees starting now, be fair with them but do not let them try to make demands on you. Please make sure you follow all the local laws/procedures, the thread is kinda long but one thing you may with to do is a month to month lease, in those you can give 30 days notice to move out at any time you have problem tenants. down side is they have the same option.

    You house in not unsafe, but costly to heat that is the issue for them be cash strapped. This email is their shot to try and coerce you into what they want to pay. If it's "unsafe" at $750 how is it "safe" at $500/mo

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Update:

     The judge found the tenants in violation of their lease and gave them 7 days to move out.  They were not out on day 7, but did move out on the 8th and left the keys.  I am very happy they are gone and inspected the house today.   Outside, cigarette butts everywhere, dog jobs, and just a mess in general, trash etc.  Inside, nothing was ever cleaned, for being there just 7 months not sure how it all got so dirty. They left some of their trash... I guess they thought was not worth taking with them. There is a lot of work to be done to get it back to the condition it was before they moved in.  No major intentional damage, so I know we got off easy.  Learned  a ton from all the people on BP and am so much the wiser. So thank you all.

    The tenants were so concerned about their "high" heating bill, but never changed the furnace filter which was completely clogged with hair/dirt and the intake vent was also. It is very easy to change the filter, a 30 second job. (We provided the filters and showed them how to change them and requested they change the filter once a month.)

     To be clear....the complaining about inadequate insulation was just a ploy to get the rent lowered.  The house was already insulated and we did upgrade it, adding close foam insulation to the attic to the tune of $2700. (They refused to show me the heating/air bills and also held help with their bill from the local utility company.)

    After seeing the place today, I am convinced I was being completely played.  They did not care about the property or the house.  The way I feel today I may never rent it again.

  • Augusta, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    "The tenants were so concerned about their "high" heating bill, but never changed the furnace filter which was completely clogged with hair/dirt and the intake vent was also."

    Many never do change the filters.  They could trip over the filters a landlord leaves for them and never figure out what they are there for.

    Don't feel bad about this.  The important thing is that they are out.  I can't remember if these folks had a security deposit.  Take pictures of the condition of the place for your records.  CHANGE THE LOCKS.

    Remember the old saying "How can you tell when a tenant is lying?  When they open their mouth".  Doesn't apply to all tenants but it sounds like it certainly does to these folks.


    Gail

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Thank you....yes it does.  

  • Lowell, MA · Member since 2014 · 335 posts · 52 votes
    10y

    @Lisa Casey

    I have not read all the comments, but I scanned through the email quickly. 

    This is another reason why I only do TAW. You should check your landlord/tenant rule. In MA, there is no grace period, when tenants don't pay on the day it is due, a 14-day notice can be sent out the next day (if you choose to). This can only allow to occur 2/year. The third time, a rent is not paid on the due date, you can trigger an eviction immediately.

    Your unit looks good from the pictures. Talk to the tenant that the unit was shown at the time as is, and no written agreement that anything will be addressed upon move in, unless new obvious failure occurred like heat/plumbing issue ... etc. I think without proper inspection, it is not easy to determine that if the unit is inhabitable. To properly determine that, a board of health will be involved, in which you should not anticipate.  

    You can counter offer a new proposal in person that anything discrete like fixing hole in the ceiling will be fixed (you have to fix it anyway even with a new tenant ..), and anything else "is as". They may choose to break the lease and move on if they don't like. Tell them that if you make the fix (minimal), payment will be due exactly on the due date. 

    The tenants don't sound like a professional. They just want to prove that they are aware of the law, they are going to use it, and that is their leverage to the discount negotiation.

    They are looking to negotiate and work with you. Clearly there are minor cosmetic problems that they think you should look into. They sound frugal or financially distress as they think about heat and air conditioning performance. 

    Knowing that the husband does not have a job for so long, they are trying to renegotiate for 30% discount. Another option is, you can accept the 30% discount and ride it out until the end of the lease with an addendum of all acceptable as-is condition until the end of the lease. At the end, you should not renew the lease. 

    In general, I don't want to keep any tenant that is too intelligent and understand rules that can put fear on landlord ... etc. I think by presenting them with an eviction after the email is considered retaliation. At this point, if it is going to hit the court, I would hire an attorney. 

    This is not any legal advise. It is a perception ...

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 20 votes
    10y

    Lisa, In spite of your bad experience this time, there are many decent people who rent.  With all you have learned and the info you have at your fingertips here on BP, I'm sure you could figure out how to carefully select your next tenant.  It would be a shame to let all your hard earned 'education' go to waste! But it's also understandable if you didn't want to rent out a place that has significant sentimental value for you.  

    If you do rent it out in the future, it would be fun for all of us to hear the good story about how much better that round goes.

    Best wishes-John

  • Investor · SE, MI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 461 votes
    10y

    Lisa,

    I am glad this turned out for you as well as it did, and still sorry for all you had to go through.  Thank you for sharing your experience with us, I know I learned a few things and I am sure others did as well.  

    Best wishes,

    Kelly

  • Investor · Bryson City, NC · Member since 2013 · 162 posts · 122 votes
    10y

    @Lisa Casey

    What a story!  I'm glad that you have the property back.  After reading through the comments and seeing the pictures of your place and what the place means to you if you are still thinking of trying to capitiilze on your investment in the property I would suggest a vacation rental through AirBnB or VRBO.  We have one property near a national park that  we have on these sites and the guests have each literally left our place spotless.  It might be a nice option where you can still use the property and gain some income.  Best of luck! 

  • Investor · Member since 2015 · 222 posts · 173 votes
    10y

    @Lisa Casey Thank you for sharing this story!  I will admit that I was angry with you, as I read all of your posts, because of your naiveté.  In the end, you got there!  Those people are GONE! 

    As a previous poster mentioned, it makes sense to say, "I will never rent to anyone again."  However, you are now so much more educated!  Make a go of it again and next time when you're having your tenant screening interview and the prospective tenant says, "Well, we lived 'off of the grid' in Maine".  In your head your response is:  "NEXT"!!  That was your first clue to steer clear of these people!

    Live and learn.  

    Best wishes to you!

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 20 votes
    10y

    @Lisa Casey, @Kyle H.

    Kyle's idea of AirBNB-ing your place is pretty cool.  I know there are several running races in the park, plus it is just a very pretty area.  Might be a great way for you guys to enjoy your place more freely and I know my friends and I have talked about wanting a place in the country, but not really wanting the upkeep and sunk cost..so perhaps there are others who would also be interested in a close-to-town weekend getaway rental.  Several friends of mine do very well with their AirBNB set ups here in Louisville.  Good luck.

  • Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    @Lisa Casey What a relief! Thank you for the update. Also, thank you for being open and honest in sharing your experience. It's great to see how many folks from BP put their heart into sharing ideas with you and rooting for you as you sorted this out.

    @Chan K.Please do take the time to read the entire thread. You will then have a chance to see how this evolved. There are 4 pages here, so what you posted didn't quite fit it in with the chronology, as well as the twists and turns that lead to this recent outcome.

  • comstock park, MI · Member since 2016 · 2 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    looking forward more reply

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Again, thank you all for the support, analysis, ideas, and comments.  Me and my husband spent the most part yesterday starting the clean up of the house and surrounding area.  There is still a ton more to do, but when leaving we both felt a lot better about it all.  We made a bad choice to rent to these tenants, but big lessons learned.  We got away with being nice to other renters for the past 15 years and have 2 other places we are currently renting.  Sooner or later we were going to get burned because of the way we handled things, which I can see clearly now.  I understand how you talk to tenants, and what is in the lease is so important. Do not become their "friend" which I have been guilty of doing, may be it is an ego thing, as it feels good when people like you.

    All that said, this has changed the way I will do business in the future.  The original plans for this house after we renovated it was to rent it out as a vacation rental, so we could use it also. A few of you mentioned this as an option.  It was furnished and we were just starting the finishing touches when these tenants came along asking to rent it....it was not advertised for rent. (The formal contents of the home are in storage)  So we are leaning toward making it a vacation rental, but I will need to learn how to do this right, also, as it differs from long time rentals.

  • Real Estate Consultant · Chapmansboro, TN · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 8 votes
    10y

    Lisa - I am very glad it finally worked out for you!

    I always believe that every transaction is a chance to learn something new...I'm sure you have learned a few things on this. Please consider what I had posted earlier about using an LLC or a Corp as your "management company" - It really does help to provide an insulator between you and the tenant, and never let the tenant know you own the property. I had learned that lesson a long time ago from an old friend and mentor, I have had many a properties and many a tenant since then...and I don't ever "own" the property.

    Happy continued investing!

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2013 · 139 posts · 43 votes
    9y

    @Lisa Casey: I read this entire thread and have felt your pain in the past.  Glad to see that it all worked out in the end!  Did you decide to rent the house on Airbnb, and how is that going?  

  • Property Manager · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 296 posts · 143 votes
    9y

    It sounds like you got hit by a professional tenant ether them or someone they know. There are a lot of good eviction attorneys that will answer questions for free as long as when their is an eviction they get to handle it. Our company makes sure that we always contact our attorneys in the event there may be a issue just to double check that we aren't missing something that could slow down an eviction.  In florida tenants can not pay rent if they use that money to make repairs that landlords have not. If they are just asking for a rent reduction due to the repairs not being done and them not using that money to get the repairs done them self it's an big red flag. But I don't know the law in your area. You now know to stop taking partial payments from now on because they will use that in court. start charging fees for paying late whatever is applicable in your area since some states have limits on how much can be charged. Follow exactly what was written down in the lease and nothing more. anything else will get you into trouble. If the chainsaw wasn't part of the lease agreement then dont include it. if your suppose to clean up something with that chain saw you do it. or hire someone. Give them the correct notices of entering and leaving the premises provided by law. This was a great teaching experience for you. I wouldn't look at it in a bad way and look at it as just another course that you took in the school of real estate!!!

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    7y

    I know it has been awhile, but I did rent out the house as an Airbnb for a couple years. It went way better than expected and we made twice the money we made by renting it out. Also had control over how the place was taken care of. The people we rented out to were highly respectful and gave us great reviews. We even allowed dogs at no extra cost with out any issues. Looking back over the thread, I do appreciate the knowledge and advice of this group. Airbnb is now shut down because we are currently building an addition to the house and having issues with the contractor not doing the work he was paid to do....here comes more lessons.

  • Rental Property Investor · CA · Member since 2019 · 47 posts · 23 votes
    7y

    You are so tolerant, why would you accept and stand late payment? I will never allow my tenants to pay late without paying late fees. Don’t accept late payment from the first time.

  • Pleasant Hill, CA · Member since 2017 · 43 posts · 17 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Lisa Casey:

    I know it has been awhile, but I did rent out the house as an Airbnb for a couple years. It went way better than expected and we made twice the money we made by renting it out. Also had control over how the place was taken care of. The people we rented out to were highly respectful and gave us great reviews. We even allowed dogs at no extra cost with out any issues. Looking back over the thread, I do appreciate the knowledge and advice of this group. Airbnb is now shut down because we are currently building an addition to the house and having issues with the contractor not doing the work he was paid to do....here comes more lessons.

    Thank you for the update! I read the whole post and was wondering about the outcome.  

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