Tenant Nightmare - new tenant with gun on bedside - please advise

Tenant Nightmare - new tenant with gun on bedside - please advise

Investor · Vienna, VA · Member since 2013 · 41 posts · 6 votes

Hi All,

I'm an investor renting out a property in Northern Virginia. I have a tenant problem - please help with your advice.

Here's the story - this large house is currently rented to a group of 5 tenants (2 of whom are brothers) on a lease expiring in July 2016. I found out today that the tenants violated the lease and moved a 6th person in to live at the house without notifying me. I was at the house to conduct a repair (having given notice of my coming), and found that the 6th bedroom was now obviously occupied. The new roommate's mail was on the floor, multiple letters with a name I had never heard before and my rental property's address under the name of each letter. Further, an opened notice from the DMV in this tenant's name related to driving under the influence of alcohol was on the floor, and an unsecured Smith and Wesson handgun was sitting on the bedside table. This stuff was all laying out there for anyone to see... I didn't go through anything.

I specifically explained to the leader of this group of young working-professional tenants (who is amazingly, a young realtor) that the county we live in only permits up to 4 unrelated people to live in a house, and that I was allowing 5 because it was ok with the county, since 2 of them are related by blood. The lease clearly states that any new tenant must be added to the lease only by written agreement. So I am very surprised by this deception, which has apparently been going on for at least a couple of months.

I am wondering how I should deal with this situation. Four months are left on the lease. I hold a security deposit of $3200 on the tenants. I do not want a confrontation with the tenants, although I am willing to do so if necessary.

There is one complicating factor. The last tenants (before the current group) violated the lease in the same way, which is why I was so clear to the current group that we cannot have this situation. In our county having more than 4 unrelated people living in a home is a violation of housing ordinances. In the prior case, a county government housing inspector visited when a neighbor reported the situation of too many cars parked on the street, and found that too many unrelated people were living in the house. I got in trouble and the tenants almost got kicked out of the house early. I managed to fight off the county in court and to let the lease finish. However I had to sign an agreement promising the county that no more than four unrelated people would be there in future leases. So I feel that if this issue comes out I will get in more serious trouble with the county... and may be heavily fined, etc.

On the other hand I'm just not sure what will happen if I confront the tenants. Who is this guy who leaves the gun lying on his bedside? I am not going to go over to the house to confront them. I am not sure if I will say anything at all... maybe I will just let the lease finish and then withhold some of the security deposit (can I normally do that in this situation, claiming that the illegal 6th tenant increased wear and tear?). I feel like I should do something.

I have taken photos and documented everything I found to prove that a 6th tenant is living there. Incidentally, I found that the tenants also violated the lease by bringing in a large dog without asking me, something which the lease explicitly says requires notification and a deposit. That is annoying but a smaller issue than the 6th tenant.

I have generally had a good relationship with these tenants, until now.

What would you do?

Matthew

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Sandown, NH · Member since 2014 · 110 posts · 44 votes
10y
I would notify them of the lease violation and demand they correct within the timeframe allowed by your state laws. If they don't, I would initiate the eviction process and follow through if they don't correct by the deadline. That way, if the county catches you, you can show documentation that you took action to the best of your ability base on the law. It also sends a message to your 'good' tenants that they must respect the lease.
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  • Sandown, NH · Member since 2014 · 110 posts · 44 votes
    10y
    I would notify them of the lease violation and demand they correct within the timeframe allowed by your state laws. If they don't, I would initiate the eviction process and follow through if they don't correct by the deadline. That way, if the county catches you, you can show documentation that you took action to the best of your ability base on the law. It also sends a message to your 'good' tenants that they must respect the lease.
  • Real Estate Agent · Daytona Beach, FL · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 5 votes
    10y

    Hello Matthew.

    If that was me in your situation ,I would let the lease expire. 4 months goes fast, 

    (obviously do not renew the lease)

    once they all move out do your house inspection, and charge accordingly to the wear and tear.

    Ultimately count your blessing that you did not get in trouble with the County, 

    use this situation as an experience to get wiser, and more strict on your tenant qualification for the next time.  

    I also agree with  Renee post, but you don't have much time left on the lease, and the eviction process may take you 3 to 4 months, but every state is different, maybe they can do it where you are in one month.  

  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2016 · 21 posts · 4 votes
    10y

    I would notify them in writing that this is a violation of the lease agreement and give them 30 days to make adjustments, with that being said I think the best route to take is @Antonio Samperi's idea.

  • Investor · Fort Wayne, IN · Member since 2016 · 48 posts · 13 votes
    10y

    I agree with Renee R. 

    There's a clear breach (6th tenant not on the lease) of contract.  If you want them out, get them out or at least get the situation fixed. If you think it's okay for them to stay, then let it slide for 4 months and take your chances with any repercussions. I wouldn't put myself on the line and take my chances.

  • Investor · Vienna, VA · Member since 2013 · 41 posts · 6 votes
    10y

    Hi All. Thank you for your suggestions. I should have also mentioned that the five existing tenants pay on time and are no problem outside of this issue. I am reading other threads about this type of issue, and am seeing that many people recommend to let it slide if it's close to the end of a lease. I tend to agree with this. The county, of course, will have no idea that I found out about this issue when I did (today)... if they ever even find out about it themselves, which they may very well not. I was at the house today alone when all the tenants were out at work. I am going to research now what the fine or penalty might be if the county does find out. I actually think it would not be more than a few hundred, not so bad considering the monthly rent is $3200, and I could in theory charge it against the security deposit or directly to the tenants (at least I think so).

    I am thinking that I should allow the 4 months to finish, get the tenants moved out, regain possession of the property, and then if necessary due to needed repairs let on that I knew about the 6th tenant, as a point of leverage. I also plan to charge the lease's required fee for the 2nd dog against the security deposit, but again after the tenant's leave.

    I don't know much about guns but think it is a bad idea to leave guns lying around the house (right?). It scares me a little to see this...

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    10y

    I would also sent the letter about the violation , that covers your rear . As far as the gun ,  2nd amendment , its a non issue  in my eyes . 2 of my tenants are hunters . 

  • Sandown, NH · Member since 2014 · 110 posts · 44 votes
    10y
    Be sure to know your state laws. In my state, NH, you can't just not renew the lease. (I know, it doesn't seem right, but it's true. There are only a small number of reasons you are allowed to not renew in NH. Your issue isn't one of them.) And, if the other tenants are good, why get rid of all of them? Give them a chance to get back in line and get the sixth guy out.
  • Real Estate Agent · Reston, VA · Member since 2016 · 34 posts · 13 votes
    10y

    In my experience with 4 unrelated tenants in the same house, and there have been several. I have had to deal with a couple cases with extra people (permanent "couch crasher" and/or significant other) taking up residency. In both cases, I had a good standing relationship with at least one of the tenants. This allowed me to simply state my case, letting them know that I know they aren't living up to their end of the agreement, and that I have to report it to my client, the landlord, because he can be fined. With group renters like this there is usually one person that organizes the utility bills and so forth, that is usually the person with the ability to make things happen, the one you would like to carry this information back to the others. The problem, in both cases, was resolved within 10 days. I even helped the "couch crasher" find a very affordable room for rent. Offering them a way to fix it on their own should work. Offering them help can make them feel like you understand their situation. If in two weeks, if they haven't done anything to remedy the situation, there is always the same legal recourse you were already contemplating. Happy to help if I can. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    The S & W is a non issue. I don't have kids and my wife and I often have guns easily accessible. One goes on my night stand at night. I honestly wouldn't even bring it up with them. 

    What are the penalties you face if you're "caught" with the 6th guy in there? I would consult your attorney. If they've only got 4 months left I may ride it out. But I would want to see if there was a way to cover my rear on the 6th guy. If not... He's gotta go... Or they all do. 

  • Lawton, OK · Member since 2015 · 14 posts · 4 votes
    10y

    Just because someone has a gun out doesn't make them trouble.  The rest of the story though, seems like a handful.  

  • Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    About that gun, you might want to read this really old, but extremely important document. It's called the Constitution.

  • Escrow Officer · Denver, CO · Member since 2016 · 64 posts · 27 votes
    10y
    I think you should definitely send them the letter and notice of violation of the lease, that way, if by chance the county finds out, your butt is covered! You never know. And perhaps you can get the 6th guy out and keep your great tenants should they wish to stay. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
  • Rental Property Investor · Yardley, PA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 561 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Aaron Mazzrillo:

    About that gun, you might want to read this really old, but extremely important document. It's called the Constitution.

    Not sure that the Constitution applies, as while he has a right to own a gun, he probably doesn't have a right to leave an unsecured gun just sitting in the OP's property that he is also not supposed to be in. He can possess his gun elsewhere.

  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Scott Weaner:
    Originally posted by @Aaron Mazzrillo:

    About that gun, you might want to read this really old, but extremely important document. It's called the Constitution.

    Not sure that the Constitution applies, as while he has a right to own a gun, he probably doesn't have a right to leave an unsecured gun just sitting in the OP's property that he is also not supposed to be in. He can possess his gun elsewhere.

     Since open carry is allowed in Virginia as in many states thanks to the 2nd Amendment,  the gun is a non issue 

  • Real Estate Investor · Salem, OR · Member since 2015 · 60 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    I have guns and have one on my nightstand as well. Unless one of them is a felon I wouldn't worry about it. There are lots of us who own guns to shoot at the range as well as self defence.

  • Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2016 · 41 posts · 23 votes
    10y

    I agree with Antonio Samperi.   Luckily, you have a short time left on the lease.  If I were you, I would give them notice (about 2 months before) that you are not able to renew the lease.   I would keep it as NICE AS POSSIBLE, and fib a little bit.  I would say that it's nothing personal, but your need the house for a family member or something along those lines.

    I suffered at the hands of a nightmare tenant once in a duplex I rented out.   Problems started with consistently-late rent; until after about 8 months of this ... the nightmare tenant skipped out of the apartment.  (Good riddance!)  However, they left countless holes in the walls; stained carpet which had to be replaced ... and here's the kicker--- they used Liquid Nails to glue every single window shut in this 2 BR apartment!  It costed me a small fortune to replace every window frame.    Had to be done because this was a fire hazard and my realtor wasn't allowed to show the apartment to prospective tenants until this was repaired.    So ... the moral of my story is to ride out the remaining few months and get rid of them without making them become spiteful, which will cost you a lot more money.    Good Luck to you.

  • Investor · Coeur d'Alene, ID · Member since 2016 · 551 posts · 218 votes
    10y

    Notify the tenants of the lease violation and keep a paper trail. You can't be afraid to mange tenants. Not sure why so many people are saying to let it be? its your asset and that's one more person in that house. They have nothing tying them there so all liability is on you and your asset. A gun should not bother people as I bet you have had numerous tenants in the past that have had them and you just didn't see it. Just because there is a gun in the house doesn't mean to ignore the obvious violation of lease terms! That is very naïve. Being that one of the tenants is a professional I doubt he would allow anything to happen that would ruin his name and credibility.

  • Levi T.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    I would give them notice that they are in violation of the lease, and have 30 days to resolve it. If it's not resolved, give them notice that your not renewing the lease at the end of the term, if you choose. You need to keep in mind, when you rent out a property, your handing over possession to the tenants for cash, and it becomes their dwelling, so all laws of the land come with it. So having guns within the property is well within their rights. Also I would not be digging into their mail or personal life as it sounds like you are, open or not, it's not very professional and could get you in hot water with the law for snooping or harassing tenants by snooping, all it takes is a cheap drop cam and you could be in hot.
  • Rental Property Investor · Fairfax, VA · Member since 2014 · 328 posts · 101 votes
    10y
    I would notify them of the lease violation, and proceed with eviction if no other reason than to cover your back. This may be a different situation if the prior situation did not already happen, but given the county cut you a break once I think it would be best to have documentation of you being proactive to rectify the situation. Even if the eviction doesn't happen in time, on paper you are covered.
  • Manville, NJ · Member since 2015 · 140 posts · 59 votes
    10y

    So I would say there is no issue.  I do not get that involved in my Tenants lives.  The rent is on time, the property is being well cared for, no police or government agency is complaining.  So what's the problem? There are 6 bedrooms, so the house is not being over loaded with people.  I say let it go.  I would let them know that if the new resident is not out in 30 days he must be added to the lease, including a complete background check.  And if that goes well.  Then move on and keep cashing the check.

  • Investor · Vienna, VA · Member since 2013 · 41 posts · 6 votes
    10y

    Thank you all for your thoughts... which help me to think through the issue... and interesting to see the range of responses. I agree the issue may be less urgent than I first thought.

    Some seemed to misunderstand that the new tenant cannot be added to the lease: the current number of unrelated people living in the house is now a violation of county law, with this 6th tenant living there. Officially, he has to go. However, nobody - neither the county nor the tenants - know that I know about this situation. So I could claim ignorance if it gets found out a month or two before the lease ends. I am still trying to determine what sort of fine there might be. I agree that I would like to cover my *** legally... however, I don't want to get involved in a battle with the tenants over this either.

    Do others here think that, if I get fined by the county for the 6th tenant, and he is kicked out early, that I could charge the fine against the existing tenants' security deposit? I think I would have a pretty strong case for doing so. I have this prohibited in the lease and even have email proof that they knew this is a violation and acknowledged to me they would not do it.

    Meanwhile, hopefully all of you Bigger Pockets people will not snitch on me to the authorities! :-)

  • Real Estate Agent · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    You state you already had this problem once with the city.  Now, you are well aware that it is happening again, but you are considering ignoring it rather than attempting to resolve the issue to the best of your ability.  Does that sound like the actions of a reputable Landlord?  

    Not a lawyer, no legal advice, but It's my understanding that in Virginia, a person not listed on the lease can be treated as a trespasser and can be removed after you've given written notice that you consider him trespassing.  There is info about this in the Virginia landlord/tenant act, I believe, if you want to read up on it.  You may have no idea of the issues you are creating in the neighborhood by allowing too many people there.  The Owner/Landlord is usually the last one to find out about how disgruntled the neighbors are, and many are too afraid to complain until it gets really bad.  Part of being a good Landlord is supporting the community where you own property, not turning a blind eye to situations that actually are a violation and likely causing trouble.    

  • Real Estate Broker · Richland, WA · Member since 2015 · 76 posts · 50 votes
    10y

    I'm in the minority here which surprises me. 

    The way I look at it, this is a rental home and my goal would be to keep it rented.  

    Why not contact whoever the "lead" tenant is and tell them the 6th tenant needs to go due to a county issue?  Then explain you saw the 2nd dog and will be expecting the additional deposit for the dog ASAP.

    Thank them for complying and don't bother checking if the 6th guy ever leaves or not.

    Tell them they will be receiving some paperwork in the mail stating what your concerns are just to keep everything on a professional level, but you'd rather work it out with them because they've been good tenants.

    If these guys are paying on time and not giving you trouble other than this, why not approach them with a lease extension instead of looking to take additional funds out of the security deposit and winding up with an empty rental?

  • Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Scott Weaner:
    Originally posted by @Aaron Mazzrillo:

    About that gun, you might want to read this really old, but extremely important document. It's called the Constitution.

    Not sure that the Constitution applies, as while he has a right to own a gun, he probably doesn't have a right to leave an unsecured gun just sitting in the OP's property that he is also not supposed to be in. He can possess his gun elsewhere.

    You also might want to read this really old, but extremely important document. It's called the Constitution. The only issue is whether or not he is supposed to be in the property. The fact that he has a gun is irrelevant and a non-issue... unless he is a felon.

    If you haven't had someone pull a gun on you, you haven't been in real estate long enough. Stick around. You're turn is coming.

  • Investor · Vienna, VA · Member since 2013 · 41 posts · 6 votes
    10y

    Hi All,

    I think it's difficult to assume you know the issues of a particular house/neighborhood based on a few written messages... in this case, parking is not a big issue as it's a very spread out neighborhood with spaces between houses and lots of unrestricted parking.

    I am planning to sell when this lease ends, and am not too worried that this 6th tenant would not leave because all of these people are white-collar working professionals(including the 6th tenant, who I researched based on seeing his name on the mail), and I judge the likelihood of any problem/need for eviction to be quite low.

    Aaron, unless you have data to back up the notion that the majority of people in real estate have guns pulled on them, save your sarcastic comments for someone who cares to hear them. Thanks.

    Lynn, I agree with your idea about being reputable in theory, but with only a few months left on the lease, I am just not sure if I want to get into it with them. At the moment I'm not planning on doing anything.

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