ADVICE PLEASE! Too many people living in house!

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ADVICE PLEASE! Too many people living in house!

Karen MargraveBusiness Member
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Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes

When we moved to southern California, we rented out our house in Redding. Over the years there have been several different tenants. It's a 4600 sq. ft. 4 Bdrm 4 Bathroom home on 20 acres with pool and guest house. Last January we leased the big house to a Christian ministry school (it's very well established throughout the country) that said they were going to use it to house students in their program. I put a maximum of 14 people on the lease (we've had that number before and they did great, kept up the house where it showed like a model home) Unfortunately, this group isn't the same. they've moved in their administrators, plus students, and a family,  TOTALING 21 people! Their rent is only $3400 per month. The house is in high demand because it's close to another ministry school, a Christian university, and a public college, plus within 8 minutes of major shopping areas, etc. 

Someone else lives in the guest house, so that's not an issue. 

What should I do? Raise the rent, and if so how much? Kick the extras out (but how will I ever know how many they actually have, because they've already shown themselves to be storytellers) Suggestions please!

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Jeff Rabinowitz
Investor/Landlord · Farmington Hills, MI · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y

Since your tenant is a Christian Ministry school you might consider sending them a bible with appropriate passages highlighted.

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  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    @Karen Margrave

    With an extra seven (that's 50%) people, the wear and tear will greatly increase; there will be 50% more load on water and sewer systems; more laundry, etc.

    Your in a "lengthy eviction state", so, in your shoes, I would start the process immediately and issues he necessary notifications for non-compliance with the lease; if find a workable resolution, you can always halt the process.

    You could give them a deadline to have the numbers reduced (i.e. April 30), but since they have a track record of being "storytellers", it is unlikely they will regain your confidence or that the relationship will improve.   Given the property is in demand, you do not need to keep a tenant who you do not trust and on whom you will need to routinely check.

    1Reply
  • Max T.
    Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    If you have that limit in your lease, give them a cure or quit notice and be prepared to follow through with eviction.

    Otherwise add them to the lease and raise the rent.

    1Reply
  • Jeff Rabinowitz
    Investor/Landlord · Farmington Hills, MI · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Since your tenant is a Christian Ministry school you might consider sending them a bible with appropriate passages highlighted.

    6Reply
  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    @Jeff Rabinowitz

    I had started to post a similar response, but then figured that coming from a non-Christian, it may have been interpreted as inappropriate ... perhaps not ;-)

    0Reply
  • Andy Yarbrough
    Flipper/Rehabber · Birmingham, AL · Member since 2016 · 28 posts · 4 votes
    10y
    Enormous liability using a building designed to be a single family residence as a dorm type or institutional occupancy. I hope an Architect was employed to redesign for the occupancy use change or you're way out on the life safety, fire and other codes. Your city has a building code and fire code official but even in a rural area your state has a Fire Marshal that shouldn't be happy with this buildings use. Might be good to request an inspection yourself anonymously. At least you would know how and when it was coming. They would be more willing to allow someone tenant or landlord bring up to code and help by setting an iron clad occupant load.
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  • Jeff Rabinowitz
    Investor/Landlord · Farmington Hills, MI · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Yeah, it probably was an inappropriate comment. I just don't care.

    4Reply
  • Steven Kleppin
    Rental Property Investor · Manama, Bahrain · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 68 votes
    10y

    Another non-real estate way to approach this might be to contact the administration department of that branch of the ministry service. Not sure which one it is, or how big it is so this might not be an option. They may not care if they are lying to you, but one would hope they care about lying to their supperiors in the ministry.

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  • Andy Yarbrough
    Flipper/Rehabber · Birmingham, AL · Member since 2016 · 28 posts · 4 votes
    10y
    A follow up. I spent the past fourteen years as a Deputy State Fire Marshal. I have testified for landlords and against landlords in court that were being sued. One injured or dead person (especially a child) that didn't have adequate exit or means of escape or lack of safety features etc. will bankrupt both businesses. It happens and it's not worth the risk. Insurance doesn't cover negligence, etc. Per NFPA and ICC max occupancy in a single family residence is a family and /or 4 unrelated persons. Otherwise the occupancy use has changed requiring upgrade code features and added safety features. I wanted to share because this is a hidden risk that a lot of landlords don't usually think about. Here we have homes and mobile homes being used as drug rehab centers or as they try to say communal living quarters and putting numerous "clients" in them. Same thing. Nuff said. Good luck.
    0Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    You need to get rid of these tenants. There is no point in you trying to restrict them to a certain number or people or police a higher rent per person.

    Tell them to leave and begin whatever process is required in your state. Being a "Christian" group you may get lucky and they will leave voluntarily but I doubt being "Christian" is going to make it any easier to evict and they will probably use it to their advantage in court.

    0Reply
  • Penny ClarkPro Member
    Sacramento, CA · Member since 2014 · 513 posts · 319 votes
    10y

    @Karen Margrave, sounds like they are not only in violation of your lease agreement but you may be in violation with the residential occupancy laws in the state. Check with an attorney. We go by the rule of 2 persons per bedroom + one. I would issue them a three day or quit to reduce the number of people occupying the home. This may be just the tool to encourage them to comply with the terms of your lease.  If they don't, then start eviction proceedings.

    1Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    10y

    @Penny Clark your comments are exactly what I was thinking when I read 14 people that seemed high. Most parts of the country, California included would allow no more than 9 people in a four bedroom home. Additionally local cities can further limit occupancy, so @Karen Margrave you need to check what is legal in your city. For example, my city allows no more than 3 unrelated adults.

    @Andy Yarbrough brings up the valid point that fire code further limits the residence to 4 unrelated persons. 

    The fact that you state in your lease that 14 people can live there could open you to liability in the event of a fire, earthquake or some other disaster. It is probably best to not renew their lease and ask them to leave. Next time make sure you follow occupancy rules to avoid liability and wear/tear.

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  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    10y

    @Penny Clark your comments are exactly what I was thinking when I read 14 people I thought that seemed high. Most parts of the country, California included, would allow no more than 9 people in a four bedroom home. Additionally local cities can further limit occupancy, so it is best to check what is legal in your city. For example, my city allows no more than 3 unrelated adults.

    From what @Andy Yarbrough is saying fire code further limits the residence to 4 unrelated persons. I would be concerned that the lease states 14 people can live there and that contradicts maximum occupancy code. You could open yourself to liability in the event of a fire, earthquake or some other disaster. It is probably best to not renew their lease and ask them to leave. The occupancy rules will help you avoid liability and at the same time avoid wear and tear. 

    I have never had more than 5 people in a home and the wear is noticeably worse with each person that is added. I cannot imaging 9 people in a home, let alone 14 or 21. 

    0Reply
  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    @Andy Yarbrough I appreciate the input. The house actually is laid out where it can easily accommodate the 14, the halls are 4' wide, there are two stairways that are pretty open, the house has over 20 windows that open and are at a height so that someone could escape to the roof or onto the covered porch, ladders for throwing out a window, hard wired smoke detectors, etc. The exterior is hardiplank (you'd need a bomb to start a fire) We have 4" waterlines running throughout the property with sprinklers and fire hose. PLUS the community college a block away has a fire department that responds within 5 minutes! 

    0Reply
  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    @Penny Clark  Actually I talked with the Building Department today, and will be talking with Planning when they can call back. As for the zoning, it's actually zoned A1 with 5 ac minimum. Meaning it has an agricultural use, and there are things allowed not allowed in residential zoning. Also the house is 4600 sq. ft. , it's not a standard subdivision home, ete. where it's like sardines packed in. However; over 14 is too much! It has 4 Bdrms, a HUGE 20x 30' bonus room, a great room, and a living room, plus open kitchen/dining, etc. 

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  • Penny ClarkPro Member
    Sacramento, CA · Member since 2014 · 513 posts · 319 votes
    10y

    @karen margrave, thanks for offering clarification and yes over 14 is too many!

    0Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    One way to limit occupants and make it stick can also can be to limit vehicles. Saying it is a church group may make that difficult though if there isn't a vehicle burden corresponding to the number of people.  Also if it is close to a walkable place you also may not have drivers but it is just a thought.

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  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    10y

    If there are too many people in the house then code enforcement officers can sometimes come in hey catch them in the act for the size of the property for violating fire and occupancy codes.

    Problem is the code person usually works 9 to 5 and a bunch of them might be gone during the day. In my old subdivision we had a neighbor like that. Code kept coming over in the morning and noon and everyone was at work so they could never catch them with too many people there. 

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  • Andy Yarbrough
    Flipper/Rehabber · Birmingham, AL · Member since 2016 · 28 posts · 4 votes
    10y

    I always worked with owners/landlords that would work with me on code violations. We issued very few closure orders in my territory (three counties) because of this. Just trying to help. The problem is already present so the quicker it is addressed the better. I retired this past January and now have more time to invest. I ran into more trouble with code enforcement than the law enforcement aspect of my job because of issues similar to this. The tenant has taken liberties that could negatively affect you. Best of luck. If I can be of assistance let me know.

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Karen Margrave I think I know the area your house is in.  I lived in Redding for a year from 2013 - 14, before moving here.

    Did they go M2M as of January, or did you sign a new lease with them?

    If they've gone to M2M, you can just give them 60 days notice to move out.  60 days for tenants who have been in the unit over 1 year in CA.

    After reading what  @Andy Yarbrough said, I think you need to give them notice to leave, if they're on M2M.  If they're on a lease, then I think you need to have them served with a 3 day notice to cure or quit, saying they need to get the occupancy down to 14 within 3 days or move out.  

    It's the liability factor that's the problem.  Now that you are aware that the house is over occupancy limits, then you can be found liable for negligence if there's a disaster, etc., due to it.  So, you need to cover your butt.

    You could simultaneously serve them the 3 day notice to cure or quit, and the 60 day notice of termination and double cover your rear.

    But, I don't think you can trust these people, and now that you're aware that they can't be trusted, you could end up liable - because you knew about it. - and you know they lie and will probably continue to house too many people to be safe.

    0Reply
  • Rick H.
    Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    If your lease does not specify how many persons and require and every adult to be on the lease, then you have either a sub-lease or commercial residential housing provider.

    This is definitely not my expertise.

    Frankly, I believe that you did not think through the ramifications of leasing to an organization, whether for a set period or moth to month. Your insurance is probably questionable coverage. 

    You'll probably need to send either (30) or (60) day Notice of change of Terms and/or Notice to Correct or Quit  and or Terminate.

    Does not sound like an ideal rental house from an investor perspective and your distance makes management and monitoring difficult. Might be beautiful but who benefits?

    My longtime friend "Fixer" Jay Decima is Redding-based and teaching a course in Orange County next month. He's great at dealing with type tenant matters. 

    0Reply
  • Matt R.
    Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    Change terms to 10% extra for each additional tenant which I think is standard these days. That's $340 extra per. They can take it, adjust it or leave it. And up to the max for whatever is allowed. 

    1Reply
  • Vincent Guerrero
    Professional · Covina, CA · Member since 2016 · 56 posts · 15 votes
    10y

    Great responses here!  I would transition them out.  Sounds like they are more of a headache than they are worth.  I agree that that many people in that space would cause you undue ware and tear.  You can probably find a tenant that is less of a liability. 

    1Reply
  • Frank Dimino
    Rental Property Investor · Rochester, NY · Member since 2014 · 55 posts · 21 votes
    10y

    Your lease should have a clause along the lines of $50 for each adult/tenant over a certain number.  The $ amount can be whatever you want, AT 50 It's another 350 added to rent you can do 100 so it be 700 more. But you get the idea.

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