Tenant Refuses Stove - threatens to withold rent

Tenant Refuses Stove - threatens to withold rent

Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes

[punchline at the end] I have a legacy tenant that has been living in the building since purchase (7 years ago) and they recently killed their gas range with only one of 4 burners working.  When they notified me it was not working, I did an inspection and it appeared that the burners were shot and clogged with burned grease.  The stove was fairly dirty and I took some pictures.  I had another used stove available, did a quick clean, tested that it worked, and swapped it out.  When tenant saw new (used) stove they freaked-out since #1 it was used and they wanted a new stove, #2 I did a decent job cleaning the stove and burners but the oven had some stains and was less than pristine.  They demanded I come a remove the new (used) stove -- I think not.

I notified them in writing that purchase of a new stove via withholding rent is not authorized.  They are pissed and sending me pictures of the inside of the oven on a daily basis.  Now to the punchline... unit is rent-controlled and tenant is paying less than 1/2 market rent, so I am in no mood to buy nice new appliances for them.  If they do withhold rent then they could be served a 3-day notice and be evicted if not paid.  

My question, dear forum members is, should I go and clean stove, take pictures, etc.. or let them follow-through on threat to withhold rent?  I would not want to get into an eviction and then lose based on a habitability claim of an unclean stove.

"A watched pot never boils"

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Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2013 · 80 posts · 64 votes
10y

Technically all you need to provide is a safe, working stove which it sounds like you've done. The rub that has been created:

Stove you provided admittedly wasn't that clean. (Have to be careful with used appliances re: insect infestation etc)

Tenant "demands" you clean or replace. Tenant is now challenging for power. You acquiesce, it may never stop. You refuse, tenant makes life hell until their exit. 

By threatening to withold rent the tenant now knows the dynamic of the relationship has forever  changed and is probably ready to move on anyway. After all would they deal with that if roles were reversed?

 Clean the stove as best you can for your own good karma and get rid of the tenant. Update with new stove, new tenat and more rent.  


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  • Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 349 posts · 142 votes
    10y

    @Josh Polston This is a little tricky. It sounds like they are a great tenant until this stove issue popped up. Not having a vacancy for 7 years is a great accomplishment and has saved you money. It might be worth it to buy a new one and keep them happy if this has been the only issue. 

    On the other hand, you could be getting more per month in rent if you got someone new to rent the unit. However, it sounds like it will take awhile to get them out and it will cost you money. I think the best answer would be to weigh all the possible outcomes and decide what is best for you. This is your business so run it the way you want to.

  • Augusta, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    I agree with what Jeremy has stated.  Even in a rent controlled situation, how much rent has been paid over the past 7 years by these tenants?  How difficult would the process of eviction be and how long would it take to get these tenants out? 

    Big box stores such as Lowes and Home Depot always seem to have appliances on sale (I've recently been looking for a replacement gas stove for one of my rental houses myself).    I like these places since they deliver free of charge.

    While your tenants certainly do not have a legal justification regarding with holding rent because of the current stove, what is the less painful route for you to go regarding this matter?

    Gail

  • Natalie KolodijBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    If they're paying half of market ....most vacancy rates are far lower than 50%. 

    Doesn't sound like he's ahead on the game by keeping them. It may have saved headache but that much of a different for potential rental income may not be worth this fight. 

  • Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    Natalie, indeed you are correct.   Perhaps I should have clarified that this is an expensive rental market, where 1/2 of market rent I estimate to be at least $1,300/mo in lost revenue.  Rather than thanking tenant, there is a very strong financial incentive to see them go.

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    Send a cleaner for the stove if its dirty.  Renting doesn't  give them an appliance picking option so you are free to put a used stove in.  (personally i  don't think keeping this person 7 years is an accomplishment for you if they are half market rent, for them definitely an accomplishment). If they withhold rent unreasonably you want to be in a good position to get them out. - not from California  though.        

  • Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    Colleen, good advice.  Shows responsiveness, allows my cleaner to take pictures of stove should they follow-through and withhold rent that will stand up in court.

  • Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2013 · 80 posts · 64 votes
    10y

    Technically all you need to provide is a safe, working stove which it sounds like you've done. The rub that has been created:

    Stove you provided admittedly wasn't that clean. (Have to be careful with used appliances re: insect infestation etc)

    Tenant "demands" you clean or replace. Tenant is now challenging for power. You acquiesce, it may never stop. You refuse, tenant makes life hell until their exit. 

    By threatening to withold rent the tenant now knows the dynamic of the relationship has forever  changed and is probably ready to move on anyway. After all would they deal with that if roles were reversed?

     Clean the stove as best you can for your own good karma and get rid of the tenant. Update with new stove, new tenat and more rent.  


  • Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    Mark, from your mouth to God's ears...

    Indeed if the tenant wants to risk eviction over a less than pristine stove, who am I to stand in their way -- remember they are roughly $1,300/mo. under market rent for the unit.

  • Curtis BidwellPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 781 posts · 744 votes
    10y

    @Josh Polston when I have tenants not happy with cleanliness I generally give them a rent credit ($20, $50, $100) depending on severity. The reason I do this is that they will never be happy with how I do it. So compensate them for doing it to their own satisfaction.  

    Obviously the issue here is new vs. used. I'd probably offer them $20 and let them know the problem with their old one was that they didn't clean it, use it properly (burners clogged with grease) and you could charge them for resolving the issue. 

  • Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2013 · 80 posts · 64 votes
    10y

    Josh,

    Amen brother.

    1300 bucks under market rent and they're barking orders at the owner? 

    Buhbye.

  • Bernie NeyerPro Member
    Investor · Chanute, KS · Member since 2016 · 160 posts · 60 votes
    10y

    You all are going to hate me. I never put any appliances in my places. All a tenant has to do, is go to Walmart, get an air up mattress and set up shop. A month later, when they can't make rent, their gone and they leave the mattress. I've also found they don't clean them when they leave. I've had to haul them out and take a pressure washer just to clean them up.

    Now everyone is going to tell me, you should of checked them first. Uh, yea, what's to check? Unless they get litigated, which many tenants avoid by just getting out, or as some landlords do, pay them to leave, there often isn't a rent record to trace. You can call past landlords listed, but there are ways around that, and trust me the tenants find those routes.

    I've found that if the tenant can afford a stove and fridge, if not a washer and dryer too, they can generally afford the rent. Also, because appliances are a pain to move, they tend not to want to move, even if you raise the rent.

    The only time I'd put any appliances in a place, is if it were an apartment. It is too much to get them up a flight of stairs and they are likely to hurt another tenant in the process.

    Any more questions, just ask.

    B. J.

  • Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    Bernie, you make a good point on all of my new leases I put the onus of maintaining and repairing all appliances on the tenant. The key issue here is that this is a legacy tenant that I inherited when I purchased the building. Due to the laws in my local jurisdiction I cannot reduce the services that I provide to them without also reducing the rent. Since I don't want to reduce the already very low rent I need to continue to provide appliances, I'll be at basic appliances which is my intent here.

  • Varinder KumarPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · LA & ORANGE COUNTY CA -Multi Family · Member since 2016 · 374 posts · 132 votes
    10y

    Buy new stove and raise the rent to market value with explanation of it to the tenant. Your being fair either way. 

  • Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    varinder, I wish I could but as I mentioned before this is a rent-controlled unit and the local jurisdiction is very tight regulations on justifications for raising the rent above the calculated inflation or CPI amount. You can raise the rent for Capital Improvements but those are spread out over 20 years and would not apply to appliances. They have us locked down here pretty tight, it's hard to be a landlord these days.

  • Rio Rancho, NM · Member since 2016 · 57 posts · 41 votes
    10y
    Sounds like you're stepping onto a tightrope. You want to perform to the letter of the law while behaving professionally cold to the tenant. With some luck she'll remain irrational and withhold rent, giving you the opportunity to evict. Talk to a lawyer.
  • Investor · Warner Robins, GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 490 votes
    10y

    Mannn. Just clean the stove.

  • Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    Darrin, you got it.

  • Real Estate Agent · Buena Park, CA · Member since 2016 · 743 posts · 424 votes
    10y
    Clean the current stove and wait a month for Black Friday to buy a new one at a super discount.This really isn't a big deal unless you intend to make it one.
  • Investor · Henderson, NC · Member since 2016 · 484 posts · 208 votes
    10y

    Out of pure principal alone, I would let them know where the door is at, and ask that they not let it hit them in the *** on the way out.

    Even if you give them a brand new stainless steel commercial stove - the relationship with this tenant is already ruined, they don't sound very profitable, and, now they think they're the boss! Don't take crap like that from stupid tenants...teach them a lesson. You'll be doing a favor for yourself and other landlords.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Clean the stove,. Then 

    If you can and have this option tell them their is an increase in the security deposit on any new appliances, you will provide a new stove if they put down an additional $350.00 on security deposit.  

  • Involved In Real Estate · Omaha, NE · Member since 2012 · 140 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    Under market by $1300 per month and it still cashflows?! 

    This sounds like a opportunity more than a problem. At this rate you are sacrificing $15,600 somolians/clams/deblumes per year to do this tenant a favor! Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a nice guy, but I don't think any of us are in this business to run under performing investments. 

    I'm curious when the last time the rent was raised. 

  • Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    Brian, rent is raised every year by 1 - 1.7%  based on the published allowed increase  the city. indeed, rent control can be very costly to a landlord aniwave for politicians to push the burden of providing under Market rent on to the private sector without their acquiescence. I have also had Section 8 tenants where the government can clean and paid the difference between a very low rent that the tenant could afford and market rate, that's a fair approach but the rent control laws are wholly unjustified and unfair.

  • New Bedford, MA · Member since 2015 · 361 posts · 114 votes
    10y

    Complaining about a new (used) stove is one thing, threatening to withhold rent because of that is another. My opinion on these topics are always "If you give in this one time, what's next?" I think once you let them think they run the show, they may (or may not) take advantage of that and give you more headaches down the line. 

    I am always for giving my tenants the best possible living situation that I can, but you can't cater to every WANT (Remember, the stove works, so it's not a need to have a brand new one).

    My decision would be to stick with what you have done and if they do not pay rent, start the eviction process. Sure it may be a little costly to get them out, but if you can double your rent when someone new comes in, you will surely make your money back in no time. 

  • Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 293 posts · 175 votes
    10y

    Don't forget they tore up the first one on their own...

  • Involved In Real Estate · Omaha, NE · Member since 2012 · 140 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    @Josh Polston Understandable. I've heard Cali is quite tenant friendly. Just so I am understanding correctly, if you have been raising rents the according to the city allowed increase how would it be possible that the market rent could be double what it is now? Is the current rate tenant based? Not at all being rude, just curious. I haven't dealt in Cali, Sec 8, or any subsidized housing. 

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