Tenant Refuses Stove - threatens to withold rent

General Landlording & Rental Properties
10yFollow

Tenant Refuses Stove - threatens to withold rent

Josh Polston
Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes

[punchline at the end] I have a legacy tenant that has been living in the building since purchase (7 years ago) and they recently killed their gas range with only one of 4 burners working.  When they notified me it was not working, I did an inspection and it appeared that the burners were shot and clogged with burned grease.  The stove was fairly dirty and I took some pictures.  I had another used stove available, did a quick clean, tested that it worked, and swapped it out.  When tenant saw new (used) stove they freaked-out since #1 it was used and they wanted a new stove, #2 I did a decent job cleaning the stove and burners but the oven had some stains and was less than pristine.  They demanded I come a remove the new (used) stove -- I think not.

I notified them in writing that purchase of a new stove via withholding rent is not authorized.  They are pissed and sending me pictures of the inside of the oven on a daily basis.  Now to the punchline... unit is rent-controlled and tenant is paying less than 1/2 market rent, so I am in no mood to buy nice new appliances for them.  If they do withhold rent then they could be served a 3-day notice and be evicted if not paid.  

My question, dear forum members is, should I go and clean stove, take pictures, etc.. or let them follow-through on threat to withhold rent?  I would not want to get into an eviction and then lose based on a habitability claim of an unclean stove.

"A watched pot never boils"

3Reply
292 views

Most Popular Reply

Mark Radford
Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2013 · 80 posts · 64 votes
10y

Technically all you need to provide is a safe, working stove which it sounds like you've done. The rub that has been created:

Stove you provided admittedly wasn't that clean. (Have to be careful with used appliances re: insect infestation etc)

Tenant "demands" you clean or replace. Tenant is now challenging for power. You acquiesce, it may never stop. You refuse, tenant makes life hell until their exit. 

By threatening to withold rent the tenant now knows the dynamic of the relationship has forever  changed and is probably ready to move on anyway. After all would they deal with that if roles were reversed?

 Clean the stove as best you can for your own good karma and get rid of the tenant. Update with new stove, new tenat and more rent.  


13Reply
See this reply in the discussion

58 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Josh Polston
    OP
    Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    You are witnessing the miracle of Bay Area rents over the past 7 years -- they have risen by double digits in many of those years, and remembering the law of 70 (70/i rate = years to double @ compound interest) it does not take that long for rents to double. Since these were "legacy" tenant that came with building, they claimed rent of $850 on estoppel at time of purchase. Bld. was a REO and the bank had not collected any rent for 18 months prior to sale. So, to answer your question, you start with a very low under-market basis (market at the time was $1,200), you constrain rent increases via R. control and at the same time the market goes gang-busters, you can actually end up less than 1/2 market rates after a few years. Hope that helps.

    0Reply
  • Josh Polston
    OP
    Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    You can see why many CA investors look outside the state...

    2Reply
  • Daniel P Willis
    Investor · Rexburg idaho · Member since 2016 · 68 posts · 18 votes
    10y

    @Josh Polston I agree with the people that are point out the fact that they are paying 1300 under current rent, thats $15,600 a year. If it were me I would let them leave, even if i have to evict them, your talking about a lot of extra money when you increase the rent. It might be a short term pain in the butt but a long term gain, plus, if you give in now what are they going to do next if they know all they have to do is threaten to withhold rent. I don't know, good luck.

    1Reply
  • Brian Beadle
    Involved In Real Estate · Omaha, NE · Member since 2012 · 140 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    Wow. 

    I love Michigan.

    0Reply
  • Josh Polston
    OP
    Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    Darrin from NM, hit it on the head.  In addition to R. control, we also have eviction control, thus even if the lease is over, you can't just ask a tenant to leave.  The law says they have the right to stay as long as they want.  There are only a few ways to evict and they usually always come down to not paying rent.  So if they choose to not to pay it would fine by me...

    0Reply
  • Chris Egan
    Real Estate Agent · Omaha, NE · Member since 2016 · 43 posts · 46 votes
    10y

    I don't think I would be very cooperative with this tenant. I have a clause in my lease that states that the appliances are there for the convenience of the tenant but are not warranted by the owner. Tenant is responsible for repairs to the appliances. Of course I take care of electrical, plumbing, HVAC repairs, ect. This way I don't get the call about the burner not working or something like that. I also am clear on that up front when they sign the lease so they have the right expectation about how this works. We do not have rent control where I am at so I am not sure how that works but in Nebraska a dirty stove would not be a reason for a tenant to withhold rent. 

    0Reply
  • Mike Gould
    Wholesaler · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 10 votes
    10y

    I agree with Chris, if they want new this and that let them buy it. I hope your lease agreement does not stipulate new appliances. If they don't pay they don't stay. Start the eviction b/c it does not get better when you have a tenant like that. If they want new let them buy a new house.

    0Reply
  • DL Martin
    Rental Property Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 292 posts · 280 votes
    10y

    Josh, immediately send a cleaning service to clean that stove and have the service take several photos of the stove, prior to cleaning and after cleaning. Have a conversation with the owner of the service and let them know that the employee who cleaned the stove and took the photo may be called to eviction court at a later time but that you will be more than happy to pay them their hourly cleaning rate for the time that they spend at court. Tuck the cleaning invoice away and pray that the tenant withholds the rent. 

    Give notice in accordance with CA state law and then start the eviction process with a smile on your face. 

    When you get to court, present the invoice for the stove cleaning, the before and after photos, and have that cleaning employee on hand to testify. 

    You will win. Even in California. 

    I've done evictions in SoCal and while pricey (compared to the Midwest), they are not impossible. 

    The only real bummer would be if after finding for you, the Socialist Judge told the tenant that if they pay the rent "right now" (in court) then the Judge will dismiss the eviction. 

    It's a crap shoot, but I would seize upon this as a golden opportunity to terminate that lease. 

    DL 

    0Reply
  • Derek Daun
    Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2012 · 289 posts · 151 votes
    10y

    You mentioned the old stove's burner's were filled with burned grease. That sounds like poor cleaning and maintenance by the tenant, who should be responsible for that. I assume the lease contains a clause saying they are responsible for taking reasonable care of the premises. Depending on the age and overall condition of the old appliance, they may be somewhat liable for part of the replacement cost.

    I would clean the new stove thoroughly, and then send them them a small bill for replacing the old stove; making some adjustments for the age of the old appliance. This all assumes they were somewhat responsible for the state of the stove.

    1Reply
  • Steven J.
    Urbana, IL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 425 votes
    10y

    Offer to help them move the new one in if they buy it. Then they get the stove they want and they might even leave it when ever they move out in the end and then you get a free stove, or they take theirs and you put a new one in. I'd be shocked if they were able to afford this. If they don't take you up on this offer then the stove they have is the stove they have and if they withhold rent then let them go onward towards eviction. Then you can bump up your rents to market rent. At 1-1.7% increase each year you're not even caught up with inflation. If they stay another 7 years you're out that much more. 

    Or, if you want to be a jerk about it, just return the non-working stove since they aren't satisfied with the working one, lol. 

    0Reply
  • Michael Delpier
    Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2015 · 176 posts · 121 votes
    10y

    @Josh Polston. There is usually something in the rent control rules that say if you make improvements, you can raise your rent beyond what that years limit is to cover a small percentage of the improvements. Not sure a stove fits those rules. I don't know about Emeryville, but I have seen this in the San Jose and Oakland rent controls when I was looking to invest there. The deciding factor for me not to invest in Oakland was the rent controls.

    As long as I have been a good owner and made sure they had a decent livable place, I would not at all buy a new stove if the "new to them" one works and looks in good condition. If they want to leave over it, well that is their choice.

    0Reply
  • Michelle B.
    Investor · Lebanon, OH · Member since 2016 · 144 posts · 87 votes
    10y
    Clean the stove when the reason the last one broke was due to her own uncleanliness? I wouldn't. No way...not a chance in hell. Call her bluff. Let her withhold rent and then evict her. Good luck! Michelle
    0Reply
  • Josh Polston
    OP
    Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    Michael, true indeed. We're coming up on the end of the month and I'm sure everyone on this post will be waiting to hear the outcome if this tenant follows through on their threat to withhold rent. If they do it will be a wonderful thing because then I can simply evict them.

    0Reply
  • Justin NeroPro Member
    Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2014 · 23 posts · 9 votes
    10y

    @Josh Polston- I suggest getting a licensed stove repair person to take a look at the stove and give you an estimate and put in writing that the condition is due to the tenants neglect. Then communicate thru email that you are providing a used but working stove. Take pictures of the stove u are planning to provide(I assume it is clean and in decent condition). When the tenant doesn't pay rent, evict them. Their defense is going to be that they were forced to not have a stove and will show the pictures they have sent you to paint you as a slumlord. The longer this continues, the stronger their case.
     I'm in a similar position in having tenants paying way under market rents. Mine give me NO issues though. By your tenant not paying rent, it gives you an opportunity to get another tenant in there and get market rents. Then you could buy a new stove.

    0Reply
  • Shawn AckermanPro Member
    Real Estate Entrepreneur · Mid West, East Coast · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Josh Polston the number one rule is business as you know is to "keep the customer happy".  If they are paying on time and the numbers work for you, keep the income coming in.  The eviction process(depending on the state) may cost you more in the end.  I'd get the appliance cleaned thoroughly, take pics, ensure it is fully operational and put the ball back in the tenants court.  I would not purchase a new appliance if the used appliance is functional.  best of luck!!!  

    Persist and you will win!!!

    0Reply
  • Josh Polston
    OP
    Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    9y

    Justin,  if I can get them to move out I would be happy to buy the new tenant two new stoves  alternating on each day of the week depending which one they want to use . we will see very soon if they follow through on threat to withhold rent as the first of the month is right around the corner.

    UPDATE - all bluster, rent was paid in full

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Henderson, NC · Member since 2016 · 484 posts · 208 votes
    9y

    Maybe it's because I don't understand the rent control nonsense in California, but why don't you just get rid of these idiots either way? Do they have a 10 year lease or what? Even if they were model tenants you are losing MANY thousands of dollars every year. Find somebody that will appreciate the working appliances they have and pay market rent at the same time.

    0Reply
  • Shawn Barga
    Real Estate Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2016 · 29 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    Wow. I just read all of the comments and suggestions here, and not one actually was concerned about being a professional and ethical landlord. First how old was the stove/oven? Second it's not the tenant's fault they live in a rent controlled building neighborhood. And since they have consistently paid their rents on time for at least the last 7 years you could have bought them a new $500 stove/oven. I would never just half clean a used oven/stove and just expect a great tenant to accept that. If I was the tenant I would feel like you don't respect me at all and are just trying to get me to move out so you can be able to rent out the unit at the current way over inflated rental prices. I understand the tenant should not have mentioned about holding back rent and you would ultimately prevail in court, but is that the type of landlord you want to be? I feel you should see both sides first and not just look at how much rent you are losing when it is no fault of the great tenant having paid on time.
    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Henderson, NC · Member since 2016 · 484 posts · 208 votes
    9y

    Honestly, if it was me, I would have gone and found a worse quality oven and installed that, as long as it worked. Keep doing this until they leave. You are not a charity, they don't deserve to pay half market value.

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Medford, MA · Member since 2016 · 85 posts · 44 votes
    9y

    @Josh Polston

    In my opinion, a professional and ethical landlord would provide what is dictated on the lease and providing them something that is functional and "habitable." I wouldn't give a tenant a brand new appliance if it shows that they don't maintain and clean what they have which is what it sounds like from your version of the story. 

    In my experience I have had only 2 out of 4 landlords provide me a stove that wasn't dirty, grease ridden and stained. The one in my current apartment I cleaned myself with clorox wipes and did just not one self-cleaning cycle but two. Sure the landlords should have cleaned it, but it wasn't worth the hassle besides cleaning it and sending them some photos before and after saying hey, I did this for you. Another stove I had was an electric one from the 1950s, older than my own father...but it worked and was functional. 

    1Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    Please tell us they with held Novembers rent.

    As a landlord operating under exactly the same rent control and tenants rights as you have in CA I appreciate your position. You did exactly what I would have done and by doing so have been a excellent landlord and fulfilled all your responsibilities.

    In your position, as much as I would hate to do it, I would re-clean the stove and then pray they withhold their rent. Re cleaning would simply cover my a** and further support what a great landlord I was. If they do not pay rent I would make sure they are evicted and would personally be there to make sure the door hit them on the a** on their way out.

    If they do pay I would take advantage of their inflated scenes of entitlement and selectively find ways to further encourage them to with hold rent in the future. In our environment being too ethical only puts you out of business.

    1Reply
  • Josh Polston
    OP
    Investor · Emeryville, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 14 votes
    9y

    Greg,

    UPDATE - all bluster, rent was paid in full for November.  Also, I did just as you suggested, after a number of e-mails complaining about the oven, I offered to send a cleaner over and do another round.  They never responded after all the complaining.  So it was really the best of both worlds, I have my e-mail offering to re-clean oven, demonstrating how reasonable I am, yet did not have to actually do anything.

    Another update, one of my angel tenants that helps keep the garbage area organized, let me know that the (stove) tenants are making a mess and dumping garbage all over the place.  I just sent them a letter quoting the lease provisions against waste and noting they will be fined and/or evicted based on future instances of dumping garbage outside of proper containers.

    Does it ever end?

    0Reply
  • Chris Walters
    Montreal, Québec · Member since 2016 · 133 posts · 19 votes
    9y
    Josh Polston Wow! It's funny how some tenants can act so wrong! First, your initial mistake was to provide a half cleaned appliance. Yes, the other stove was probably not working anymore because of their lack of cleanliness, but how would you feel if you were in the tenants shoes? On the other hand you did right by not providing them with a brand new stove. They probably ended up cleaning it themselves. Regarding the garbage disposal, do you have security cameras around to serve a proof? Unless if you have footage, I doubt a judge will accept to evict a tenant based on word of mouth. Play it safe. Continue raising the rents, do not engage in any issues with that tenant, be firm, professional and fair. I hope everything works out! Keep us posted!
    0Reply
  • Jack B.
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Are they on a month to month lease? Once a problem always a problem has been my experience. If you give in now, it WILL be something else in a few months or weeks. I'd give them notice to vacate. I recently did this with a tenant when they kept making more ridiculous demands. 

    0Reply
  • JC Conchas
    Investor · Torrance, CA · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 24 votes
    9y

    Josh,

    I feel your pain. I'm in Southern California, we have our own areas of rent control. It's hard to convey just how much the RSO (rent control board) is, pro-tenant and anti-lanlord, to out of state investers.

    We inherited a condo in a rent controlled area, and didn't know it was rent controlled. We rented it out for 2 years, then we decided to move into the condo. So we gave the tenants 60 day notice to move, because they had been renting for over 1 year. The tenants contacted the RSO, they sent us a letter saying it was an illegal eviction. Long story short. We had to pay them $7800 to move, and we sold the condo.

    We avoid rent controlled areas like the Black Plague.

    Good luck

    JC

    1Reply
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.
Log InJoin for Free