My tenant got shot. What do I do?

My tenant got shot. What do I do?

Eugene, OR · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 3 votes

Greetings bigger pockets.

I need urgent help. I am living in an owner occupied duplex and renting out the other side. This is my first rental and I closed last December.

My tenant just got shot last night. It's not clear if he got shot by himself or by someone else, though it happened inside, and the officer did not mention anything about a break-in. I hope I will be finding out more details about that later today.

He had a girlfriend and they had recently broken up. They also have a child and a pet.

It seems like there are a lot of implications that this has, and that I need help understanding. I also need to figure out what the next steps are for myself. Should I get new tenants? How do I approach it with his girlfriend and him if they want to stay or not? It seems like they would want to go but I'm not sure. How easy is it to even rent out again? It looks like Oregon law says that I don't have to disclose to prospective future tenants, though I think it was fairly obvious that something had happened since the police and the fire department were there for so long.

Has this ever happened to anyone and what steps did you take?

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Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y

Attempted suicide or domestic violence or both. Whatever the reason, I would have a sit down talk with your tenants. Check in to make sure they are okay and find out what they need at this point. 

If they need to move, make it easy for them to leave by releasing them from their lease obligations without penalty. Move forward as you would with the termination of any tenancy and make-ready the unit for the next tenant.

If they need to stay, go over the terms of the rental agreement and re-establish understanding about the property rules regarding "peace and quiet" "safety" "crime" and "firearms on the property." It's quite likely that discharging a firearm within the city limits is a violation of a local ordinance, it is in my town, so check out that aspect. If one of your tenants or their invitee was the one who discharged the firearm, then that could easily be a violation of one of the terms in the current lease agreement and grounds for serving a Notice to Comply, or similar type notice to bring them back into compliance.

Do not attempt to evict without clearing this through an attorney, as you don't want to violate laws that protect the rights of the tenants. Attempted suicide can result from mental duress and/or mental illness, so think about protected classes of people. Assault and attempted murder are crimes, so if that was the case, you could quite likely evict the perpetrator. Collect your facts first and seek legal counsel.

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  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2017 · 453 posts · 254 votes
    9y

    @Justin Harford contact the investigating authority local P.D. or Sheriffs department. Gather any and all information you can. What happened, injuries or death, when the crime scene can be released back you, also offer to help in anyone you can to expedite the process; there is a lot of red tape here. After that I would contact a local attorney who specializes in that type of law. Depending on the circumstances you may or may not be able to evict if they do not choose to leave. If you end up not being able to evict I would have the rental lease agreement memorized and look for anything that you can build a case to evict them. Documentation is key here.

  • Rental Property Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2014 · 73 posts · 15 votes
    9y
    This is the most interesting thread I have read on BP!
  • Investor · Zürich, Zürich · Member since 2016 · 292 posts · 115 votes
    9y

    I'm a bit surprised to keep reading about "you have to get better tenants, do better background checks, etc". How would this be helpful in this situation? Apart from those people with guns who also HAVE a criminal record (and most probably own the gun illegally) it wouldn't do any good with respect to incidents related to guns. Owning a gun doesn't make that person a bad tenant. Nor will it necessarily lead to incident. If this was a true problem I reckon at least half of all tenants in Texas would have to be evicted or were refused to be rented to LOL.

    Of course not having guns on a property typically avoids such incidents. But again, good screening of tenants would not help in that regard.

    In any case, apart from the point above I agree with the input that has been given in the prior posts. Get yourself properly informed and then decide on the action(s) to take: Facts --> Analysis --> Action.

  • Conroe, TX · Member since 2016 · 237 posts · 43 votes
    9y

    @Sam Yi @Justin Harford What is the point in this case of restriticting guns on property? If you think it would keep this kind of thing from happening, that has a pretty low chance of being effective. If it was crime (which it sounds like it was not) the other person does not care what's in your lease. If it was attempted suicide the guy probably wouldn't care what was on the lease either, or he would just do it some other way. If it was mishandling of a firearm, that MIGHT have prevented it if the tenets cared once again. 

    If your goal is simply to provide reason to evict in cases like this, then go ahead. Though I think no one should restrict the right to bear arms, but that's another discussion for another day ;)

  • Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2016 · 74 posts · 29 votes
    9y

    @Justin Harford sorry you're going through this. Sounds awful.

    I'd definitely pursue the Oregon law on improperly discharging a firearm to get these tenants out ASAP. 

    I would tread lightly and get help from an attorney in case you have a savvy/devious tenant.

    For example... in Washington State there are protections against evicting tenants based on domestic violence issues.

    "The Landlord-Tenant Act forbids landlords from terminating a tenancy, failing to renew a tenancy, or refusing to enter into a rental agreement because of a tenant’s status as a survivor of domestic violence, sexual assault, stalking or unlawful harassment, or based on a tenant having terminated a rental agreement because of a similar incident."

    So just go about it intelligently in case your tenant later claims discrimination because it was an act of domestic violence.

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    The only thing worse than a suicide, for a landlord, is an attempted suicide. Much easier to deal with successes than failures.

  • Investor · Takoma Park, MD · Member since 2016 · 166 posts · 147 votes
    9y

    Just so we're all clear here, the walls separating two duplex units are not necessarily anywhere near to being an obstacle that would prevent a bullet, even from a relatively mild handgun, from passing through into the other unit or through to the outside where it could strike an innocent bystander. If I were living on the other side of the wall from someone who discharged a firearm indoors, I'd have serious concerns about my own safety. This needs to be part of the conversation with the lawyer and the police.

  • Nicole A.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Baltimore County Maryland and Tampa Florida · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    I suppose the damage besides a possible bullet hole in a wall/floor/ceiling is blood spatter and/or pooling? How much other damage could there possibly be unless there was a physical fight as well? You definitely will need a biohazard team for bodily fluid cleanup.

    How much more than your insurance deductible is the damage costing? Did someone already give you a quote on this? 

    Also, just because a neighborhood is nice doesn't mean terrible things don't happen there!

    I hope you're able to re-rent your unit quickly.

  • Investor · Clatskanie, OR · Member since 2014 · 212 posts · 233 votes
    9y

    While making our rounds, Security checks we call them. A neighbor to one of our duplexes waived us down to chat. A friendly fellow we usually get information from in exchange for farm fresh eggs and an occasional streak. So were talking about this and that. Wife notices the back unit has a for rent sign in window from our PM.

    We ask the neighbor fellow what happened to our tenants?  He informed us that the tenant died of a heart attack last week. We called our PM who apologized for somehow not informing us but they confirmed tenant died and they had several applications pending. Place was clean. We came back next day and tootle farted around giving it our extra finishing touch for couple hours like we normally do. Gives us a chance to see our place. Went home to finish our evening with a nice dinner.

    On the way home, wife and I realized how odd it was that we had never even met the guy.

    A case for  property management. Get a good experienced one with there own lawyer.  When we do run into a tenant, we tell them sorry all we do is work on them, our Manager deals with the money, legal and drama related stuff, you will have to ask them.

    Now is that nice or what?

  • Software Developer · Vidor, TX · Member since 2015 · 922 posts · 639 votes
    9y

    Avenge them!

  • Eugene, OR · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    good morning. Yes the question was brought up to me that I might hold them responsible for paying for part of it at least keeping their deposit. Reflecting on that more, that deposit is my last negotiating chip that I have with them, and I am thinking about a cash for keys if I choose to have them out. My feeling is that if it is so bad that I want them to give me their deposit, I should just send them somewhere else. This is a scary idea though since this will be my first time finding tenants, but I guess it has to come eventually.

    She has had plenty of chances to tell me that it was domestic violence and she hasn't. He was actually by himself when it happened.

    The idea that a tenant keeping guns in the apartment had never occurred to me as a problem before, and now all kinds of problems are coming to mind. He had a small child as well. I assumed that having guns he would know about gun safety, but after this I'm not sure. I certainly don't care to dispute the idea that if somebody broke into his apartment he had the right to shoot them in self-defense. Oregon law provides for that. But at the same time I don't feel like I should have to assume all this risk.

    What Scares me is how easy will it be to rent again. There was a massive spectacle in front of the building that lasted for almost 12 hours. It's on a slightly busy road with lots of cars going by and lots of witnesses. Can you imagine how it would look if I put the place up for rent in the next month. What would people say?

    For a variety of reasons I am thinking about property management. At the same time, I'm embarrassed to say that I don't think this was the wisest decision given our market. I purchased on an FHA loan, and while this was one of the better deals that I was finding, the remaining monthly cash flow that I get is about $300. I don't pay any of their utilities, but I am learning now that with the cost of landscaping and things like this, I would be lucky if I broke even, though I'm not sure I will do that.

    I am also taking on this project as somebody with a vision disability. I use a cane and braille and all of the works. It creates a different dynamic, and I don't know that there are very many investors out there that can help counsel me through those unique challenges… If there are any.

  • Real Estate Investor · Springfield, OR · Member since 2013 · 94 posts · 35 votes
    9y
    Justin Harford , I'm sorry to hear about all this! Sometimes rental properties aren't as kind as they ought to be to first-time landlords. I'm a property manager in Eugene, so go ahead and message me if you'd like some help, either with full-service management or just certain aspects of the process.
  • Flipper · San Antonio , TX · Member since 2016 · 13 posts · 1 vote
    9y
    If there was blood on any of your property make sure it's cleaned up by a biohazard cleaning company - no need to disclose further. Serve notice as this is a violation of any lease and get a new tenant.
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    9y

    @Justin Harford domestic violence and suicide can affect any neighborhood and any socioeconomic class. In my own neighborhood over the last ten years I am aware of two gun suicides in houses worth $500K. Suicides are often not reported on the news so usually people don't hear about it unless there was some type of high profile situation. It is better that this guy didn't die! Death in a property really freaks people out, even from natural causes. You need to deal with this swiftly. Make it clear to current and future tenants you have a zero tolerance policy for violence or crime - this was both. 

    As far as cash for keys, I am sick of people on BP acting like that should be the first or is the best course of action. Usually when I tell people to leave, they leave. If they don't then they can deal with my lawyer. I bill people for all damage and take them to court to get a judgement if they don't pay. Given the circumstances you will find a court very sympathetic to you.

    I know as a starting landlord that experiences like this can drive you away from the business. Best advice I can give is to learn from this and put things in place to prevent it in the future. This is likely a once in a lifetime experience for you, so look at it this way. If you can make it through this, you can make it through any other challenges your rentals could present. 

  • Houston, TX · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 10 votes
    9y

    Hi Justin,

    I'm commenting regarding the insurance aspect.  If there is any damage to the unit it COULD be covered under your insurance policy depending on the type policy you have purchased.  I did have this happen to one of my customers (he was the owner & his tenant shot & killed himself in his unit).  The insurance company paid to have it cleaned; (biohazard clean-up).  My customer was even sued by the family but of course did not win because he was not negligent in causing the suicide & the insurance company paid his defense cost.  The customer sold the unit & @Chris Parrish the owner was obligated to disclose the information about the suicide to the buyers.  Hopefully you are not obligated to disclose this information to the tenants because if they find out on their own it could possibly mean REFUNDS or legal ramifications. 

    Good luck Justin.

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 4 votes
    9y
    I'm sorry to hear about this terribly unfortunate circumstance! I had a tenant one time that I did not screen at all who turned out to be a nightmare and cost me thousands literally. I was co-habitating with them at the time and on the phone she seemed great and I was eager to get the place rented out. Little did I know within 5 mos, she would fake disabilities to get $ from the govt, call code enforcement to make it that much harder to evict, and deface and damage the property (We're talking cement in the toilet tank and pickles down the drain type of stuff). She even stole stuff out of the garage that belonged to other tenants. I know this may not help you much in your current situation, but once you are on the other side of it, just be glad this will be one of the last times (knock on wood) you will have to deal with this type of tenant if you don't skimp on the background checks and due diligence. I use a prop Mgr now for everything and have no problem at all paying for that service after what I've been through.
  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    Nobody was killed. You don't know what happened, so I'd suggest taking a deep breath and finding out what happened. What is the area like? Is there high crime? Is it possible that someone broke into their house? If so, why should they have to move? 

    If someone broke in, should you as the landlord take steps to make the property more secure? 

    If it's an attempted suicide, maybe you could compassionately talk with them and see what's going on, explain the situation as far as being a neighbor, and see what you can do to help. 

    I think overreacting, running off to a lawyer and incurring costly bills, without having a clue as to what the circumstances were makes no sense. 

  • Realtor · Greenfield, MA · Member since 2014 · 21 posts · 4 votes
    9y

    Discharging a firearm in a dwelling is generally a criminal act. His action has threatened the health and safety of all tenants (you) in the building. What if the bullet went through the wall and hit you in the head?

    They have to go pronto. Talk to a lawyer, you probably have the right to immediate termination of the lease. However, you most likely have to follow the legal eviction process unless you can get a restraining order since there's no way to predict if he'll come back and do it again.

  • Investor · Valparaiso, IN · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 47 votes
    9y

    I did not read every post - But in the short term,to heck with everything else!  Get out and secure your OWN safety!

    I really hope it is just you and not a family.  Regardless of the "cause' you are certainly in more potential danger being there than not being there.

    Get out - get safe - search and sort later.

  • Real Estate Broker · Franklin, TN · Member since 2015 · 18 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    @Justin Harford - I am not sure what your lease or the lease of the previous owner says but normally there is a section that states that tenants cannot do anything that might be considered a nuisance, offensive, noisy, or dangerous.

    Gun fire, no matter the circumstance, in a multi-unit property falls under the category of dangerous. My suggestion (like others I have seen in this thread) would to provide the tenants with the ability move-out now with no penalties and if they do not accept you might have to push for a eviction. 

    If this was a property I managed I would worry that if I know these tenants have guns and are not safe with them they could accidentally/intentionally discharge their weapon again and hurt a tenant next door. You really do not need that type of issue.

    Also, depending on your state you can put in your lease that you do not allow guns on your property. 

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    OK.. Basically what you have is the UNLAWFUL USE of  GUN.

    IT CAN NOT be discharged in a dwelling.. 

    THIS IS GROUNDS for eviction for CAUSE..

    As long as you have a police report stating the guy was discharged in the apartment, YOU have verification that the gun was used UNLAWFULLY.. SO you tell them. I will file for Eviction in 5 days for "CAUSE, Unlawful discharge of firearm"  or you sign this Mututal Lease termination agreement that you will vacate and agree to be out in 5 days by NOON. If hey aren't out you go down at 1pm and file. 

    YOU DON"T PLAY GAMES you get them out now.

    More than likely the police department will send you a letter stating that this incident will require you to evict the tenants because of the gun discharge..

    Accidental, Intentional, Doesn't matter its cause for eviction and I personally wouldn't wait. Suicide, Homicide neither are a landlords dream, so with this incident you came off lucky.. 

     If you do the mutual lease termination just charge rent for up to date they vacate. and return deposit as per cleaning required.

    I've been thru 4 shootings one was a murder.. so don't press your luck.

  • Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2016 · 39 posts · 17 votes
    9y

    Justin,

    While many of these responses are no doubt well intentioned, there is some terrible advice floating through this thread.  You are back seat to the actual situation.  First, ascertain the facts related to the incident.  This starts with a police report, which is a matter of public record.  If you can get additional "insight" from the officer after reviewing the report, great.  This will give you some opinion-based information from the first responder.  Armed with the facts, do one of two things next, depending on your relationship with the tenant; if you have good rapport, talk to your tenant.  But keep it open and easy.  If this was in fact a grief-based incident (possible suicide attempt), the last thing you want to do is evict with zero empathy.  This could escalate an emotionally charged situation.  Be an ally in the situation.  If you don't have ideal rapport and this conversation is uncomfortable, talk to your lawyer first and get some basic advice.  If it was some sort of negligent discharge, maybe discuss incorporating storage requirements for firearms in the lease, as well as repercussions for noncompliance.  Other than that, there is not too much you can or need to do.

    Good Luck,

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2010 · 366 posts · 314 votes
    9y

    They are probably expecting to be asked to leave if it was one of them or a friend who fired. Discharging firearm is valid, but heck, endangering your life is even more relevant (bullets don't always stop at walls).

    If it was a random shooting (complete stranger shows up on doorstep) they may wish to move anyhow. Most of the other excuses (went off while cleaning or handling, arguing, etc) show carelessness, stupidity, criminality or dodgy associates you don't want next door to you. 

    Since there was no death, there is nothing to declare to the next tenant. 

    Maybe offer to "release" them from the lease to move immediately, maybe with the additional incentive that if they are out within 15 days you'll take care of the carpet & bullet damage?

  • Troutdale, OR · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 15 votes
    9y
    Jay is right. If you live in one side, the federal fair housing laws do not apply to you. Discriminate all you want for whatever reason you want.. not sure about since they already have a lease though. This is a very interesting forum that I'm gunna keep up on. Thanks for the post!
  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Ben Winchester

    Ya got a permit to carry with that name ::))

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