Bad tenants - we need a database :-(

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Bad tenants - we need a database :-(

Daria B.
Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes

I know this is probably border line - privacy issue - if not fully frowned upon. :-|

The title of my post - these tenants had no respect for the property - why doesn't there exist (again, venting) something that landlords can document what the tenant did to the property and share it? It would not be anything other than what we do now with our properties but we would be able to share that with other landlords. This would help others see just how bad/good tenants are.

Even doing the back ground check, debt 2 income, credit check all the other verifications - just doesn't always seem full proof. I've read of the professional tenant and how they manipulate the system.

Mostly venting here and telling others whether you self-manage or have a PM - get all and do all documentation pre and post tenant move.

Going through a disputed move out - pictures were taken (pre-move in and post move out) and the written documentation clearly has everything checked off as fair or good condition. 

I was mortified at the condition.

The PM did all the right things and the tenant is disputing all the SD as though there was no damage.

They broke things and didn't say a word - they glued a kitchen draw back on - glue dripping down the face of the draw and it was on crooked. :-/

They changed the front door lock, I assume they broke it since there were so many other things that were broken.

They never changed the air filter - clumps of dirt and dust on all the vents and the return register.

 Holes in the wallls and dirt all over the walls from kids hands and who knows what.

They almost burned down the house from the cooking being done with grease. Had to replace one stove and pretty much the replacement was also ruined. The cabinets took a few days to get the grease and grim off. Scratches weren't superficial but to the point of having to paint several cabinets. :-/ Crayon? Really?

Manipulative is what comes to mind knowing the condition and still they feel they are not culpable.

Ok - venting done and I'll be riding this to some sort of conclusion.

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Tyler De Young
Developer · Bozeman, MT · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 19 votes
9y

@Daria B. its almost funny once you get over the inconvenience and loss of time/money; but I adopt the, "if you don't laugh, you'll cry" principle.  

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  • Vitaliy Merkulov
    Property Manager · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2015 · 121 posts · 33 votes
    9y
    Joe Splitrock you can't rely on credit reports and eviction reports anymore because since July 2017 credit bureaus have taken leans and judgements from 12 million individual reports as part of a deal that they made. So someone could be evicted, but never even show up on the search. So a database like this would help find info that can't be found on credit report, or evictions.
    1Reply
  • Steve Vaughan
    Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Steve Vaughan Or as one of my clients is doing and buy every avaliable house in a little berg.. tenants have no choice but to deal with you.. or move out of town.

     There are advantages to being a big fish in a small town.  Just gave someone a 20-day notice 2 months in because she acquired a bf from the dark side.  "Oh you shouldn't have done that" she was told.  "You'll never rent in this town again".  True that.  Poor thing is only 19.  

    Don't be afraid of lawsuits and court trouble at every turn.  Privacy schmivacy.  If it happened to you and it's true, you can tell whoever you want.

    1Reply
  • Brian Ploszay
    Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Evictions are a public record.   you can check people's credit.   You can analyze other factors such as income, length of time at a job and other predictive factors.  Also, you can do a visit to their current residence.  There are many many ways to reduce the chances of getting a bad tenant.  

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    Yeah, there was a legal case regarding libel somewhat recently.  It used to be that if whatever your wrote about a person was true, then that was a perfect defense.  To libel someone, you had to be knowingly telling a lie with the intent to hurt someone's reputation.

    But, this case was about an executive who was caught doing something illegal and was fired, if I remember correctly.  Then, his superior, who was maybe the CEO - another executive anyway - actually wrote an email or put something in the company newsletter telling the entire staff of the company all about what the naughty executive did.

    This damaged the fired executive's reputation and his career, and he sued for libel.

    In a landmark decision, the court found that even though the boss told the truth about the naughty exec, because he'd acted with malice, to deliberately hurt the guy's reputation, the court found the boss guilty of libel.

    So, the bar has moved as far as what libel is, too.  And I wonder if a database of this type would qualify for libel.

    It's too bad all landlords don't use the services for collecting rents, that report rent payments to the credit bureaus.  

    But, for now, at least there are collections to be seen on credit reports, and there are eviction databases, which just collect the raw data of who filed evictions against who - which is public data.

    But, really, if someone's credit score is good, with regular on-time payments, and their work history is good, and the length of time they usually live somewhere before moving is good - I just think it's rare to get any real problem tenants if they meet this criteria.

    Now, they could end up being whiney, picky pains in the rear - wanting new flooring or complaining about whatever, all the time.  But, not likely to be someone who will need to be evicted or cause damage.

    1Reply
  • Michael Swan
    Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    My property manager figured out that he runs a credit and backgound check, criminal backgound and checks with previous landlords and still notices they check out on all fronts and if that is a green light then he checks one more thing that is detecting some bad ones.  Many times landlords just want the tenant gone and don't want to say they were bad and are evicting them.  So my PM check with the court docket in the area they were moving from and sometimes sees their name on the court docket being evicted at that time.  Gotcha!!!

    Swanny

    0Reply
  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    I don't think that a database like this would every be a reality.  You do your best prior to move in to background check but there is always a bit of a gamble. Just assume everyone is going to be really rough on the property and plan for that.  If they are not, then it is a bonus.  If they are, you were ready.

    1Reply
  • Craig Bellot
    Property Manager · CT · Member since 2014 · 687 posts · 329 votes
    9y

    Evictions are public record, easily searchable.  With credit checks, background and previous land lord phone calls you can get a pretty good idea whether a resident is worth the chance or not.

    You can't predict what the future holds however with the information available your gut will tell you what to do.

    1Reply
  • Matthew Olszak
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Vitaliy Merkulov I like what I'm reading in your post. Is RenterInc subject to FCRA? Would a tenant be able to request a copy of their report, and could they dispute its content like with the credit agencies and lexisnexis?

    0Reply
  • Billy Smith
    Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2016 · 716 posts · 313 votes
    9y

    Most folks do not get a court order eviction ,there is no paper trial .I tell all new renters I must talk to last land lord or no deal.

    I have had one try to cheat using a relative  as a land lord ,my back ground person  caught it .

    1Reply
  • Vitaliy Merkulov
    Property Manager · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2015 · 121 posts · 33 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Matthew Olszak:

    @Vitaliy Merkulov I like what I'm reading in your post. Is RenterInc subject to FCRA? Would a tenant be able to request a copy of their report, and could they dispute its content like with the credit agencies and lexisnexis?

    @Matthew Olszak, Yes, it's subject to FCRA under 15 U.S.C. section 1681d(a), (b), and we're completely compliant. Tenant is able to request a copy of their report, and could despite it's contents. We're going one step forward, by soon allowing tenant to register and see who checks their Renter Report online. Just like you can keep track of your credit score with Experian App

    We are extremely committed to being legal.

    0Reply
  • Brooklyn A.
    Eustis, FL · Member since 2017 · 96 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    @Vitaliy Merkulov This question regarding dispute from @Matthew Olszak stimulates a good question. You insinuate that you are FCRA compliant, are you, RenterInc, a credit reporting agency (CRA) as defined by the FCRA? It is apparent from the intent of your alleged dispute process, you are not a furnisher of information.

    0Reply
  • Matthew Olszak
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Brooklyn A. Don't rope me into your tenant-advocacy deadbeat-supporter trolling of the forums. @Vitaliy Merkulov answered my question clearly - they aren't "insinuating" anything - they have attorneys who have well defined their status under the FCRA.

    1Reply
  • Mike CumbieBusiness Member
    REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    It is like if someone made a landlord Database and a bunch of people got on there and started telling stories about how bad this one was. 

    -Withheld my deposit when the place was as clean as when I moved in (Sure it was)

    - Hounded me for rent before it was due (In reality knocked on the door once at 6:00PM)

    - Stalked us at all hours of the day and night (Househacking landlord going about their day)

    - Called the cops (Was really the next door neighbor who just said it wasn't them).

    There are plenty of people who would want to clear their name. No different really, it's just online reviews and pure opinion.

    0Reply
  • Brooklyn A.
    Eustis, FL · Member since 2017 · 96 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    @Matthew Olszak Pointing out how wide open the liability of such a database operator and its furnishers of information is tantamount to "tenant-advocacy deadbeat-supporter trolling of the forums."  OK. I'm certain that making false allegations is part and parcel of your business model, so it comes natural for you to resist fact and instead result to insult. You refuse the plain language duties imposed by state and federal statutes.

    They're FCRA-compliant until they aren't. I won't spell it out, won't help you see where, and I won't reveal my case strategy. You should stick to something you know: baseless insults over the internet.

    0Reply
  • Shaun Patterson
    Property Manager · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 296 posts · 143 votes
    9y

    This is definitely a wish for alot of people but as said before any sue happy tenant will have a field day when they find out why you denied them.  My motto is the best offence is strong defence. One of the things we look for when we screen is the ability of the tenant to pay and pay on time thats just one of the 20 things we look at when we go through our screening process.  

    0Reply
  • Daria B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Shaun Patterson:

    This is definitely a wish for alot of people but as said before any sue happy tenant will have a field day when they find out why you denied them.  My motto is the best offence is strong defence. One of the things we look for when we screen is the ability of the tenant to pay and pay on time thats just one of the 20 things we look at when we go through our screening process.  

     Agreed on the screening but what specifics are in your tool box: how do you determine solid "ability" to pay and pay on time.

    Any credit report that doesn't have sporadic (and do they report these anyway) payments won't tell you if he tenant pays on time.

    What other things do you look at that gives you concrete evidence the potential tenant has been late paying.

    For example, the former tenant was late 3 times all of which they had to be hounded to pay. This started after 1.5 years of already renting. Clearly something changed from when they were placed in the lease.

    Unfortunately nothing of full proof.

    0Reply
  • Daria B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Billy Smith:

    Most folks do not get a court order eviction ,there is no paper trial .I tell all new renters I must talk to last land lord or no deal.

    I have had one try to cheat using a relative  as a land lord ,my back ground person  caught it .

    One of my PMs makes a visit to the potential tenants living residence to talk to the landlord and see how they live. As explained to me, if they live clean and pay then that travels with them, otherwise, if they find from the landlord (that can be subjective. Who's to say they don't paint a pretty picture to rid themselves of the tenant.) they had issues and their living is too messy, it will travel woth them to the new living space.  

    0Reply
  • Alex Nieves
    Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 5 posts · 3 votes
    9y
    Yeah BTD!!! Bad Tenant Database!!! Great idea!!!
    0Reply
  • Daria B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Daria B.   @Jay Hinrichs    How much would you be willing to pay for a service where landlords could report how tenants did at previous properties?  This would be a fairly easy service to create.  Of course there would have to be a fairly long start up period to get enough reports into the database to be worth using it.

     My initial thoughts on this was the need to have better defined "checklist" yes/no answers to more pointed questions. Like when they began being late into the lease term when paying rent. 

    One issue I see is some sort of life change into the lease term OR they were already borderline at the onset of the lease and likely would not be able to keep up the momentum of paying. I.e. A couple whose combined income is what % of or over DTI that put them on the fringes of failing.

    0Reply
  • Shaun Patterson
    Property Manager · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 296 posts · 143 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Daria B.:
    Originally posted by @Shaun Patterson:

    This is definitely a wish for alot of people but as said before any sue happy tenant will have a field day when they find out why you denied them.  My motto is the best offence is strong defence. One of the things we look for when we screen is the ability of the tenant to pay and pay on time thats just one of the 20 things we look at when we go through our screening process.  

     Agreed on the screening but what specifics are in your tool box: how do you determine solid "ability" to pay and pay on time.

    Any credit report that doesn't have sporadic (and do they report these anyway) payments won't tell you if he tenant pays on time.

    What other things do you look at that gives you concrete evidence the potential tenant has been late paying.

    For example, the former tenant was late 3 times all of which they had to be hounded to pay. This started after 1.5 years of already renting. Clearly something changed from when they were placed in the lease.

    Unfortunately nothing of full proof.

     This is all very correct there is no full proof system to find out if a tenant will pay on time or not. Without going into our systems that much we get banks statements, tax returns, W2's look at credit reports just to name a few and gauge based on this information.  all of the metrics are the same for each tenant. I know its a little overboard but for our clients we want to take the extra time in the beginning to find out what type of tenant they will be. You also have to keep up to date with what is going on with your tenants. every year is the same process again. 

    0Reply
  • Daria B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

    @Daria B. there are databases in addition to Renterinc that other people have started too, but nothing has gained mass traction. The problem is that any angry landlord could put someone on a list. The proof is often he-said she-said, so that is why these lists face potential legal problems.

    The best system we have as landlords is the US legal system. That means when someone damages your property, stand firm on the damages. Either they pay or take them to court. Bad tenants will often have judgement against them, so when you run a credit report and see "XYZ Property Management", that is your best clue.

    The other side of the argument is that some tenants are falsely accused or over charged. I have seen charges that are so high, it would be considered illegal. For that reason I wouldn't trust every landlord to rightly be placing people on lists. Court systems are there to mediate.  

    The other side of this is that there are also websites for landlord reviews, like reviewmylandlord.com so we all run the risk of getting put wrongly on a list. 

     I'm going through answering several posts so hopefully this is not a repeat answer.

    The idea and database of information as it were, would be pointed factual based questions requiring a yes/no answer. And be simple like have they been late in the term period. If so, how many times. Was the same excuse given. 

    If like any survey the questions are open to the participants written ideas, then yes it's going to be a she said he said rather than using the yes/no method.

    0Reply
  • Daria B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Shaun Patterson:
    Originally posted by @Daria B.:
    Originally posted by @Shaun Patterson:

    This is definitely a wish for alot of people but as said before any sue happy tenant will have a field day when they find out why you denied them.  My motto is the best offence is strong defence. One of the things we look for when we screen is the ability of the tenant to pay and pay on time thats just one of the 20 things we look at when we go through our screening process.  

     Agreed on the screening but what specifics are in your tool box: how do you determine solid "ability" to pay and pay on time.

    Any credit report that doesn't have sporadic (and do they report these anyway) payments won't tell you if he tenant pays on time.

    What other things do you look at that gives you concrete evidence the potential tenant has been late paying.

    For example, the former tenant was late 3 times all of which they had to be hounded to pay. This started after 1.5 years of already renting. Clearly something changed from when they were placed in the lease.

    Unfortunately nothing of full proof.

     This is all very correct there is no full proof system to find out if a tenant will pay on time or not. Without going into our systems that much we get banks statements, tax returns, W2's look at credit reports just to name a few and gauge based on this information.  all of the metrics are the same for each tenant. I know its a little overboard but for our clients we want to take the extra time in the beginning to find out what type of tenant they will be. You also have to keep up to date with what is going on with your tenants. every year is the same process again. 

    Those are the same collection of "data" that I see and know it's heavily scrutinized - some PMs I'm seeing are thought-minded as "it's collateral damage" if they placed a not-too-good tenant. They rely on security deposit paying for in part or all damages and just think that the borderline DTI and all encompassing information about the tenant suffices what "they" think is a good tenant. Well the "collateral" damage ends up being me who now has to deal with the fall out.

    0Reply
  • Shaun Patterson
    Property Manager · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 296 posts · 143 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Daria B.:
    Originally posted by @Shaun Patterson:
    Originally posted by @Daria B.:
    Originally posted by @Shaun Patterson:

    This is definitely a wish for alot of people but as said before any sue happy tenant will have a field day when they find out why you denied them.  My motto is the best offence is strong defence. One of the things we look for when we screen is the ability of the tenant to pay and pay on time thats just one of the 20 things we look at when we go through our screening process.  

     Agreed on the screening but what specifics are in your tool box: how do you determine solid "ability" to pay and pay on time.

    Any credit report that doesn't have sporadic (and do they report these anyway) payments won't tell you if he tenant pays on time.

    What other things do you look at that gives you concrete evidence the potential tenant has been late paying.

    For example, the former tenant was late 3 times all of which they had to be hounded to pay. This started after 1.5 years of already renting. Clearly something changed from when they were placed in the lease.

    Unfortunately nothing of full proof.

     This is all very correct there is no full proof system to find out if a tenant will pay on time or not. Without going into our systems that much we get banks statements, tax returns, W2's look at credit reports just to name a few and gauge based on this information.  all of the metrics are the same for each tenant. I know its a little overboard but for our clients we want to take the extra time in the beginning to find out what type of tenant they will be. You also have to keep up to date with what is going on with your tenants. every year is the same process again. 

    Those are the same collection of "data" that I see and know it's heavily scrutinized - some PMs I'm seeing are thought-minded as "it's collateral damage" if they placed a not-too-good tenant. They rely on security deposit paying for in part or all damages and just think that the borderline DTI and all encompassing information about the tenant suffices what "they" think is a good tenant. Well the "collateral" damage ends up being me who now has to deal with the fall out.

    Now in regards to the databases that have alot of information on you then lexusnexis would be a big player. But for the smaller landlords it would be overly expensive. 

    The Pm's that follow the thought process of collateral damage end up getting a bad rep for the damage they caused and dont last. For a good PM each tenant that they place their name is behind that tenant. The funny thing about the real estate community is that its not as big as it looks on TV . That is the main reason we take the time to fully vet any tenant we put our name behind. Its also the same reason that alot of landlords hate PM's because of that "its not my property" mentality that has run rampant. Now we cant put the same preconceptions for all PMs just like to cant base the same on all landlords being slumlords.  

    1Reply
  • Cody L.
    Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @John Thedford:

    Tenant review sites are an old idea. They have been frowned up, and one could find themselves being sued for invasion of privacy. The ONLY info you COULD LEGALLY state would be public records such as evictions and judgements. However, they are already public record.

     Why is it legal for Sally to say "John T is a crappy landlord. DO NOT RENT FROM HIM"


    Yet illegal for John T to say "Sally is a crappy tenant.  DO NOT RENT TO HER" ?

    2Reply
  • Mike S.
    Rental Property Investor · Huntsville, AL · Member since 2013 · 419 posts · 323 votes
    9y

    There exists a deadbeat database on a landlording forum but the participation rate is pretty much zero.

    0Reply
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