DESPERATE NEED of landlord help

DESPERATE NEED of landlord help

Real Estate Agent · Titusville, PA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 6 votes

Hello! I am brand new to BiggerPockets and semi new to real estate in general. I am a real estate agent and landlord to one property in Northwest PA. The property is a 2/1 single family in an alley. I have had a tenant for 9 months with the lease expiring at the end of this month (August). In the last couple months I have noticed an extra vehicle in the driveway and extra belongings (a motorcycle). Long story short my tenant has a new boyfriend that lives out of state but "visits twice a month".The lease we use is straight from the Managing Rental Properties book and obviously this situation is against the lease in several aspects. I (through texting) asked about adding boyfriend to the lease. She was instantly defensive and ended up upset with me claiming invasion of privacy and that I accused her a being a bad tenant (I actually said THREE times that she was a great tenant). We were going to sign a new 9 month lease this week but after this exchange she is unsure if she would like to stay and I am unsure if she should stay. She said she definitely doesn't want to add boyfriend to the lease. How I left the conversation is that I would "follow up with you on Monday with a list of options to stay or instructions to vacate. I hope we can work something out so that both parties are satisfied. Have a good weekend." I can provide the whole conversation if needed! I also want to mention I heavily used reference to the lease and that I was just following policy.

 So now I need help on how to proceed?! I was thinking I would provide her with three options: 1. Add boyfriend to lease and nothing changes. 2. Have boyfriend sign a document stating that he does not live there and he is not a tenant. And furthermore requiring the removal of the motorcycle and only allowing his car to be parked in the driveway on a temporary basis (not sure what the parameters should be on that?). And 3. Not renewing the lease. Does this sound reasonable? Am I being too strict? She really has been a great tenant and I would hate to lose her but I also want to follow the lease to protect my business. WHAT WOULD YOU DO? Thank you in advanced!

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Dawn BrenengenBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y

@Brigitte Beauchat I would put yourself in her shoes for a moment.  She may be into this guy, but that doesn't mean she wants to have a legal document binding herself with him in a living situation.  I think your plan #2 of having him sign that he is NOT a tenant is better, but I don't really see why you need that necessarily.  Honestly, if she's a great tenant, then I'm not really sure that I would worry about her boyfriend spending the night there.  Do you suspect that he's living there or do you think he's just there a lot?  On our standard leases we have a place to list "additional occupants," so if I really wanted to be by the letter, I would list his name there.

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  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 142 posts · 52 votes
    9y

    I agree with @Lesley Resnick don't get too involved with the smaller picture. Look at the big picture, you have a great tenant who pays on time and isn't causing issues nor is ruining your house. There's too many bad tenants out there to focus on the little stuff with good tenants. I can understand your concerns as well but maybe being honest with the tenant and letting them know your issue might help resolve it. Sometimes honesty is the best answer

  • Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 451 posts · 369 votes
    9y

    Good lord, if I had a landlord telling me to put my significant other on a lease, I'd terminate that lease at the first legal opportunity. If she is a good tenant & pays the rent on time, stay out of her personal life. The only reason you even have the ability to pay this much attention to her is because you only have one unit to manage. Focus on acquiring more units, if you get caught in the weeds with insignificant issues like this, you'll never be able to scale.

  • Rental Property Investor · Union City, PA · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 10 votes
    9y

    Another thought is to ask if he has used your rental as his mailing address.... if so,it makes it pretty cut and dry.  If he does, he has be approved to be put on on the lease. Make your life easier and not so complicated!

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2010 · 739 posts · 372 votes
    9y

    @Gregory H.

    Great post

    Also DESPERATE NEED of landlord help?  Can't imagine when something actually goes wrong...

  • Attorney · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Brigitte Beauchat

    You are dealing with multiple issues at a time. I'm not your lawyer and I'm not giving you legal advice, but let's try to take it step-by-step. 

    1. Motorcycles/Storage Issues. If this is an actual issue, then you can deal with it separately from the boyfriend question. If it's not a big deal, then it's not the root of the issue and you can move on. 

    2. "Unintentional" Tenant. I assume this is your biggest fear. Let's consider the extreme. There is another poster on BP who is currently dealing with a bizarre situation where a random squatter is living in his unit in Philadelphia. He is trying to figure out how to get him out (see the link below). 

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/443/topics/47...

    Stuff like that can happen even if you are the most careful landlord. So if you are absolutely terrified of the possibility of this boyfriend living in your unit for more than 14 days a month, then you can either have him sign the lease or decline to renew the lease with your current tenant.  

    3. What I would do. Again, this depends on the exact situation. But as a general rule, if I had a suspicion that my tenants are breaking some rule, I generally start with sending a letter --- by certified mail, return receipt requested --- reminding them about certain rules or lease terms. In some cases, I may expressly want to point out the facts that raised the suspicion.  in other cases, I may draft the letter as a generic "reminder" letter to the tenant. In both cases, I would explain the underlying reasoning behind the rule and what the consequences are for the breach (i.e. eviction, fines, etc.). 

    The letter does two things. One, it reminds the tenants about the rules and that you as the landlord takes the rules seriously. Two, if there is ever a lawsuit between the parties, it can help you prove to the judge that you did not waive any rules or terms of the lease.  

    Now if there is a serious breach (e.g. tenant took a sledge hammer and started knocking down the walls for some reason), then obviously I'll act more urgently. But for other stuff, I may decide to be a bit more lenient about it and give the tenants to correct the issue on their own. For example, let's say the tenants have several kids and they are playing in the front yard. The lease says that they must not leave clutter in the front yard. Despite this, the kids leave the toy around in the front yard. If I just noticed it once, I may not do anything. If I notice a habit, I might send a generic "reminder" letter (seemingly addressed to all the tenants) that they need to clean up the yard. If that doesn't do it, then I slowly escalate the situation until it's appropriate. But I wouldn't start with the nuclear options (e.g. threatening to evict them unless they clean up the toys now).  

    If I was in your situation, I would've asked about the boyfriend and whether he was living there. If she answered "no, he just visits me twice a month" I would say that's fine and just remind her again that he will need to sign the lease if he starts to live in the unit for a longer period. I may include a written letter to that effect when you renew the new lease. And then I would see what happens and take it from there.  

    Obviously, consult with your own lawyer about this. But as a general rule, you can't really expect every tenant to follow your rules 100 percent of the time. It's just not realistic expectation whether you are dealing with rules for your tenants, rules for your own kids, or rules for your own employees. And I don't think you will sleep as a landlord if you treat every breach as a "high alert" situation. 

    I wouldn't see this particular situation --- based on the facts you wrote here --- as a "high alert" situation. Again, that's my own personal judgment and you may feel differently. You'll need to decide what's right for you. 

    4. Pennsylvania Landlord-Tenant Law. This is not directed to you, but I've been noticing many recent posters saying that Pennsylvania law favors tenants over landlords. Perhaps they are correct if they are talking about areas like Philly (for various reasons). But overall, I would say Pennsylvania law is pretty fair to the landlords. Notably, the law is fairly lenient when it comes to the kind of lease terms you can include to protect yourself as a landlord. So if you have some issue that you perceive as "unfair" to you as the landlord, try to find out what you can do to correct that issue. Many times, you'll find a decent solution. 

    5. Your lease. On last thought: I assume you are using the sample lease from the book that @Brandon Turner wrote. It's a great book and I consider it a required reading for all landlords regardless of their experience level. But I would be careful using that lease verbatim in Pennsylvania. Granted, I haven't looked at that form in a while, but I recall seeing some parts that clearly doesn't jive with Pennsylvania law. Also note that Pennsylvania law requires the landlord to use a residential lease that is written in plain language. Reasonable people could disagree, but I think it's a coin flip as to whether that particular lease could meet that standard. 

    Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it as legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.

  • Real Estate Agent · Titusville, PA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 6 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Chris Purcell:

    @Gregory H.

    Great post

    Also DESPERATE NEED of landlord help?  Can't imagine when something actually goes wrong...

     Well this wasn't very constructive.. Not sure why it was necessary to say anything at all. However, if you need an explanation: I was trying to grab attention with my heading and I am a new landlord learning as I go. I'm sure you never needed help in the beginning... 

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2010 · 739 posts · 372 votes
    9y

    @Brigitte Beauchat

    It's all constructive.  Take a deep breath, in my opinion just let it go unless it becomes a real issue

  • Real Estate Agent · Titusville, PA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 6 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Chris K.:

    @Brigitte Beauchat

    You are dealing with multiple issues at a time. I'm not your lawyer and I'm not giving you legal advice, but let's try to take it step-by-step. 

    1. Motorcycles/Storage Issues. If this is an actual issue, then you can deal with it separately from the boyfriend question. If it's not a big deal, then it's not the root of the issue and you can move on. 

    2. "Unintentional" Tenant. I assume this is your biggest fear. Let's consider the extreme. There is another poster on BP who is currently dealing with a bizarre situation where a random squatter is living in his unit in Philadelphia. He is trying to figure out how to get him out (see the link below). 

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/443/topics/47...

    Stuff like that can happen even if you are the most careful landlord. So if you are absolutely terrified of the possibility of this boyfriend living in your unit for more than 14 days a month, then you can either have him sign the lease or decline to renew the lease with your current tenant.  

    3. What I would do. Again, this depends on the exact situation. But as a general rule, if I had a suspicion that my tenants are breaking some rule, I generally start with sending a letter --- by certified mail, return receipt requested --- reminding them about certain rules or lease terms. In some cases, I may expressly want to point out the facts that raised the suspicion.  in other cases, I may draft the letter as a generic "reminder" letter to the tenant. In both cases, I would explain the underlying reasoning behind the rule and what the consequences are for the breach (i.e. eviction, fines, etc.). 

    The letter does two things. One, it reminds the tenants about the rules and that you as the landlord takes the rules seriously. Two, if there is ever a lawsuit between the parties, it can help you prove to the judge that you did not waive any rules or terms of the lease.  

    Now if there is a serious breach (e.g. tenant took a sledge hammer and started knocking down the walls for some reason), then obviously I'll act more urgently. But for other stuff, I may decide to be a bit more lenient about it and give the tenants to correct the issue on their own. For example, let's say the tenants have several kids and they are playing in the front yard. The lease says that they must not leave clutter in the front yard. Despite this, the kids leave the toy around in the front yard. If I just noticed it once, I may not do anything. If I notice a habit, I might send a generic "reminder" letter (seemingly addressed to all the tenants) that they need to clean up the yard. If that doesn't do it, then I slowly escalate the situation until it's appropriate. But I wouldn't start with the nuclear options (e.g. threatening to evict them unless they clean up the toys now).  

    If I was in your situation, I would've asked about the boyfriend and whether he was living there. If she answered "no, he just visits me twice a month" I would say that's fine and just remind her again that he will need to sign the lease if he starts to live in the unit for a longer period. I may include a written letter to that effect when you renew the new lease. And then I would see what happens and take it from there.  

    Obviously, consult with your own lawyer about this. But as a general rule, you can't really expect every tenant to follow your rules 100 percent of the time. It's just not realistic expectation whether you are dealing with rules for your tenants, rules for your own kids, or rules for your own employees. And I don't think you will sleep as a landlord if you treat every breach as a "high alert" situation. 

    I wouldn't see this particular situation --- based on the facts you wrote here --- as a "high alert" situation. Again, that's my own personal judgment and you may feel differently. You'll need to decide what's right for you. 

    4. Pennsylvania Landlord-Tenant Law. This is not directed to you, but I've been noticing many recent posters saying that Pennsylvania law favors tenants over landlords. Perhaps they are correct if they are talking about areas like Philly (for various reasons). But overall, I would say Pennsylvania law is pretty fair to the landlords. Notably, the law is fairly lenient when it comes to the kind of lease terms you can include to protect yourself as a landlord. So if you have some issue that you perceive as "unfair" to you as the landlord, try to find out what you can do to correct that issue. Many times, you'll find a decent solution. 

    5. Your lease. On last thought: I assume you are using the sample lease from the book that @Brandon Turner wrote. It's a great book and I consider it a required reading for all landlords regardless of their experience level. But I would be careful using that lease verbatim in Pennsylvania. Granted, I haven't looked at that form in a while, but I recall seeing some parts that clearly doesn't jive with Pennsylvania law. Also note that Pennsylvania law requires the landlord to use a residential lease that is written in plain language. Reasonable people could disagree, but I think it's a coin flip as to whether that particular lease could meet that standard. 

    Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it as legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.

     THANK YOU! This is very helpful. I did have an attorney look at the lease for me but I'm not sure how closely he read it. I will revisit that. 

  • Oakland, CA · Member since 2017 · 133 posts · 58 votes
    9y

    @Brigitte.  

    "The lease states any person that stays 14 days or longer must be on the lease and that only one vehicle per adult on the lease is allowed to be parked on the premises. He is definitely staying there a lot. I don't know exact dates. The thing I am worried about is that I have not personally researched this guy. I don't know his criminal history or tenant history or credit history. From what I understand is if she decides to move out and he won't leave when she does, I would still have to go through an eviction process even though I never signed a lease. Correct me if im wrong... but that is what I'm trying to avoid. "

    I learned it the hard way before.  The boyfriend of my previous tenant had criminal background.  They caused a lot of trouble later on...  

    I had them vacate my premises, and they made alot of damages, and caused us $10k to fix the damages they did...

    After learning this the hard way, I have my lease very strict that, all people who stay in the premises for more than 14 days must get an application approval from us (landlords), or we will terminate their lease in 30 days.  

    There are many good tenants out there, especially today rental market is very hot.  It is not hard to find another good tenants.  

  • Investor · Montgomery, AL · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 0 votes
    9y

    I have ten property in Alabama, and 4 in Texas. Under most rental contracts you would have to be able to prove to the court that he stayed more then five days at time more then tow time a mouth to have any  legal act. That being said, the cost to get the info is more then the rent that you would receive for hem being there. Why the 9 mo lease, instead of a twelve mouth lease that would about renew, if no notice was sent by the tent 30 days prior to the end of the twelve mouth lease?

  • Rental Property Investor · Malvern, PA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 938 votes
    9y

    I concur with the prior posters and would not be especially concerned if this wasn't creating a material problem.  I can see at least two approaches to try to save the lease:

    1. Previously mentioned - Guest writes a letter attesting he is a guest and not a tenant.

    2. You write a letter to the tenant stating that he is a guest and not a tenant as to your prior conversations with the tenant.  He may visit, but has no tenancy writes unless you and your tenant agree to add him to the lease.  Invite a written response if this is not correct.

    #2 Puts you more in control and serves the notice that you are aware of him and he is only a guest.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2010 · 739 posts · 372 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Sandy A Armer:

    I have ten property in Alabama, and 4 in Texas. Under most rental contracts you would have to be able to prove to the court that he stayed more then five days at time more then tow time a mouth to have any  legal act. That being said, the cost to get the info is more then the rent that you would receive for hem being there. Why the 9 mo lease, instead of a twelve mouth lease that would about renew, if no notice was sent by the tent 30 days prior to the end of the twelve mouth lease?

    Why are you assuming she would get higher rent by adding another person?

  • Robert SpencerPro Member
    Investor · Port Huron, MI · Member since 2016 · 58 posts · 14 votes
    9y

    My gut reaction is that if she was quick to be defensive, she is probably guilty of something.  If she quickly got so defensive and claimed you were implying one thing, when you explicitly said the opposite 3 times... get her out at the first opportunity.  It's only a matter of time before she decides she doesn't like you for some reason and goes before a judge lying about what you did or didn't say.  If you do keep her, do month to month and keep extremely good records of everything pertaining to that property including interactions with her.

  • Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 16 votes
    9y

    I had a similar situation on one of my homes. I knew the boyfriend was technically living there, despite the lease limiting visitors and saying that additional occupants had to be approved. I turned a blind eye to it because she was a pretty decent tenant at that point. What I didn't know was that he had multiple children that moved in also (putting them over the occupancy limits for the town and HOA), and his car put them over the limit for the HOA allowed number of vehicles.

    This ended up causing me all kinds of heartache from the HOA, and since I had turned a blind eye to it for several months, the tenant got REALLY mad when I brought it up at that point. They turned on a dime at that point and became nightmare tenants, and tore up my house.

    For all the people that say "what does it matter" it really depends on the limitations the landlord has. If there are no occupancy limits, no HOA limits, or no code limitations on number of people and vehicles, then the landlord has to decide what is best for them. If any of these limitations exist, then I don't think you can just let it go, because the reality is that at some point it may come back to bite you. I have learned that the sooner you deal with the situation, the better it is. I think my tenant might have taken it better if I had addressed it up front, but since I let it go she took it as an accepted situation and then took affront to it when I decided to "change it". Even if she wanted to leave earlier in the lease, I don't think all the damage would have happened if it had been dealt with early, and all the anger over the situation hadn't built up.

    The issue of the boyfriend becoming a squatter if the tenant leaves is also something I became concerned about.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2017 · 78 posts · 28 votes
    9y

    You say she's a great tenant so I'm assuming she has treated your property with respect and pays her rent on time.

    I too would be offended if you accused my significant other of living there when she was not.

    If I was the significant other, I would probably tell you I'm not living here and don't need to or am I required to sign anything from you.

    Personally, I would not lose a great tenant over this non-issue. 

    If you cannot get over it, which it sounds like you cannot from updated posts, dont renew her lease and .....

    get ready to pay a months mortgage, screen dozens of tenants, show prospective tenants the property, move utilities into your name in the interim, pay service/connection fees to the utility companies, etc., etc.

    Good luck! You've got a lot of great info from previous posts. Let us know how it all turns out.

  • Eustis, FL · Member since 2017 · 96 posts · 6 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Brigitte Beauchat:
    Originally posted by @Max T.:

    What is your goal?

     First, I would like to keep my tenant. But more importantly I would like to stick to the lease I have in order to avoid trouble in the future. Since you are from PA, I assume you are familiar with the law and that it tends to favor the tenant as opposed to the landlord. I'm not unwillingly to bend the rules but I don't want to get into a situation where I'm stuck with a tenant I never agreed to in the first place. 

    Could I be looking at this too black and white? Do I need to be more flexible with my lease going forward?

     First, the only trouble currently is the trouble you initiate. Doesn't seem to me the tenant has gone out of their way to make trouble for you. I fully agree the tenant is in a borderline area, but it can be excusable neglect.

    Asking this guy to be on the lease acts like a forced declaration of a relationship she may not want. I'd leave it at informing her, in writing per the lease term, that if he intends upon 14 days or more of visitation you require him to be on the lease and and require a security deposit. Proving how long he's there, with specificity is going to be difficult if not impossible. You could request her to provide you with his estimated visitation duration/dates. Her cooperation and involvement could short-circuit the dispute by providing an avenue for clear communication. I would also mention in my letter that receiving mail addressed to him at the dwelling is strictly prohibited.

    Stop texting. It's poor business etiquette. There's not much more you can do without strict proof at this stage. It results in unnecessarily picking a fight with an already adversarial tenant. If you intend upon changing your lease terms for unverified allegations, it may signal that you are holding this against her.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2010 · 739 posts · 372 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Brooklyn A.:
    Originally posted by @Brigitte Beauchat:
    Originally posted by @Max T.:

    What is your goal?

     First, I would like to keep my tenant. But more importantly I would like to stick to the lease I have in order to avoid trouble in the future. Since you are from PA, I assume you are familiar with the law and that it tends to favor the tenant as opposed to the landlord. I'm not unwillingly to bend the rules but I don't want to get into a situation where I'm stuck with a tenant I never agreed to in the first place. 

    Could I be looking at this too black and white? Do I need to be more flexible with my lease going forward?

     First, the only trouble currently is the trouble you initiate. Doesn't seem to me the tenant has gone out of their way to make trouble for you. I fully agree the tenant is in a borderline area, but it can be excusable neglect.

    Asking this guy to be on the lease acts like a forced declaration of a relationship she may not want. I'd leave it at informing her, in writing per the lease term, that if he intends upon 14 days or more of visitation you require him to be on the lease and and require a security deposit. Proving how long he's there, with specificity is going to be difficult if not impossible. You could request her to provide you with his estimated visitation duration/dates. Her cooperation and involvement could short-circuit the dispute by providing an avenue for clear communication. I would also mention in my letter that receiving mail addressed to him at the dwelling is strictly prohibited.

    Stop texting. It's poor business etiquette. There's not much more you can do without strict proof at this stage. It results in unnecessarily picking a fight with an already adversarial tenant. If you intend upon changing your lease terms for unverified allegations, it may signal that you are holding this against her.

    This doesn't make sense.  The security deposit was already paid in full when Tenant 1 signed the lease.   Adding Tenant 2 has nothing to do with any money exchanged.

    This is basically saying :  my property is $1,100/mo for a single, $1,800/mo for a couple

    Not gonna work.  You're going to be in a battle with this solid tenant who was paying on time creating headaches for yourself over nothing

  • Flipper · Sylmar, CA · Member since 2016 · 17 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    If she is a "good tenant" it shouldn't matter how many cars are parked in the driveway. When making your decision you have to ask yourself. What do I have to gain from this? What can I loose from this? The cost of having a unit go vacant, plus the cost of getting the unit rent ready, plus the chances of you getting a "bad tenant" out weighs adding a boy friend to the lease. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Titusville, PA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 6 votes
    8y

    I just wanted to update on this situation even though I’m super late! I ended up talking to my tenant about the situation and we sorted it out. I overreacted over the boyfriend thing because of the horror stories I have heard in the past. I just told her that if he did start staying regularly we would need to add him to the lease or have him sign something stating he wasn’t a tenant. There was also a motorcycle that apparently is hers, which is still a huge pain (especially for plowing), but I haven’t pressed the issue. She is a great tenant and I’m glad to say she did end up renewing her lease with us. This lease is up in May but I’m not sure what will happened. Also I haven’t seen or heard about the boyfriend since I talked to her about it. Thanks for all the advice!

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