SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
I own a single family rental in Kentucky and the tenants submitted a move out notice last month for when their lease ends on Feb 28.
They were not responsive to the property manager’s requests for showings and when queried the tenants said they are refusing to allow showings. They stated that with their move they have boxes everywhere and the wife is pregnant and so it would cause them too much stress.
Obviously if the property cannot be shown until after they move out this will cause a longer vacancy, which costs me money. The property managers stated that the tenants are in violation of their lease but other than serve them a 30-day notice, of which they will be out sooner at this point anyway, there is nothing else they can do.
I contested if they are in violation of their lease terms, that means they forfeit their deposit, especially since their actions are costing me money in the end. The property managers said they cannot keep the deposit for this - only if there are damages to the property itself after move out.
Has anyone else dealt with anything similar? This is at a very bad time as well because I’m looking at a new residence and investment property currently so obviously do not want the property vacant for long.
I own a single family rental in Kentucky and the tenants submitted a move out notice last month for when their lease ends on Feb 28.
They were not responsive to the property manager’s requests for showings and when queried the tenants said they are refusing to allow showings. They stated that with their move they have boxes everywhere and the wife is pregnant and so it would cause them too much stress.
Obviously if the property cannot be shown until after they move out this will cause a longer vacancy, which costs me money. The property managers stated that the tenants are in violation of their lease but other than serve them a 30-day notice, of which they will be out sooner at this point anyway, there is nothing else they can do.
I contested if they are in violation of their lease terms, that means they forfeit their deposit, especially since their actions are costing me money in the end. The property managers said they cannot keep the deposit for this - only if there are damages to the property itself after move out.
Has anyone else dealt with anything similar? This is at a very bad time as well because I’m looking at a new residence and investment property currently so obviously do not want the property vacant for long.
Thanks!
Your lease should have language that addresses refusal of entry. You CAN take them to court to have the judge compel them to act. You have to properly notice them (In AZ it is called a Cure Notice), which gives them 3 days to correct, or be in violation (Which you can define terms of consequence in the Cure Notice). Then you can take them to court. It is a quicker process than a standard eviction.
You aren't dealing with MUCH time here, but you can still do it.
If it were my unit, I would go ahead with the Cure Notice to get it on record, but then continue marketing the property for rent and set up showing times for the very day after the Tenants move out. Create anticipation.
Also, for future, I would add a clause in your lease that states that any violation or Cure Notice not remedied by the sooner of 3 days or the end of the lease term will result in a forfeiture of the Security Deposit.
Realtor and Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Without knowing the terms of the lease there is no way for anyone to know if you have the right to do showings.
That is not entirely true. Most, if not all leases have provisions for a landlord to give notice before entering the property (usually 48 hours). As long as proper notice is given, the Tenant should have no reason or excuse to refuse. This is NOT their house. They are not the owners. The owner has a right to enter their property with proper notice.
South Bend, IN · Member since 2015 · 180 posts · 93 votes
8y
Amie D. I would schedule a showing to test them out. Be sure to give 24h notice. I would then ensure you have a clause in your lease which allows you to show the property. If you do and they stop the showings I would with hold whatever vacancy costs you accrue as a result of them not allowing showings from their deposit. I would document this value and calculate it based on lost rent. In Indiana we have 45 days to return the deposit so this should give you plenty of time to figure out how much lost rent you have accrued. I would also call my lawyer to make sure I can do this!
SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
8y
Wow all, first of all, THANKS for the great responses!
@Aaron Linden there is a clause in the lease that allows us to show the property with notice etc, but according to the property managers they cannot (or won't) hold the deposit for this and can only give 30-days notice, which is longer than their move out date. I am going to see how long it takes to rent the property, and may take your advice. Finding it ridiculous and the inaction is strange.
@Cara Lonsdale, I will look into a cure notice, but at this point it's the 16th and they are moving out on the 28th, so I'm not sure it would be able to be done that quickly, what the costs involved would be to make it worth it, and then by the time showings were to be set up again it may end up being when they move out anyway. I am glad I know about this for the future though! I have contacted the property managers to add an addendum to future leases that charge the tenants a $75 fee for each showing that they block. I like the way that you worded it though because that would also cover other lease violations, for example I just found out that they have an unauthorized pet on the property, another violation of their lease. I may get a new PM because the current one seems to be too laissez faire for my taste.
@Account Closed, realizing this thread has gotten long, I have posted a few times that the lease, as well as state law, declares they must allow showings with proper notice as well as in a reasonable hour.
@Adam Christopher Zaleski, frankly if it was me I'd want to do that too. Ha. I am interviewing another property manager today who was recommended to me. And another one of my rentals is close to a major university and tends to follow the academic calendar as well - yep I get it - if we waited for that one to be vacant before showing, we would be totally out of the rental loop. No one there to my knowledge does or would do that.
@Amy Beth, great suggestion! I think I had asked about that before but they were going to charge me something high for going out. I may discuss with them again. I am interviewing another property manager today and I will ask that of him as well. I tend to stay in contact with the neighbors as well, and they are pretty good at keeping me in the loop but can't see inside.
@Bradford Clark at this point I am writing it in future leases and making sure maintenance is ready to go from day 1. It's actually a month they are refusing showings but at least it's the shortest month of the year, haha.
@Frank Chin interesting stories! If a tenant refuses showings they will be given a 30 day's notice immediately, and in the future fined for each time they refuse a showing in the meantime before they are out. No sense in keeping an uncooperative tenant and I can see why.
@Ned J. thanks! The other way to look at it is if the prospective tenants are seeing it the month before move out and don't like the way it looks, they will most likely have found another place before it would have been vacated, fixed up and ready to be shown anyway. I tend to buy properties in good/up and coming areas but nothing so amazingly hot.
Have you actually spoken to the tenants directly? I read where you state that the property manager is saying this but then I continue to read and see where the property manager is not returning your calls, charging you higher than normal fees etc......
It could be that one phone call directly to the tenants and they tell you that no one has asked them to make the place available and they would be happy to help. If this is the case, it will be a valuable call because you will know to get another pm before the next lease is signed.
on another note.....I would worry much about the deposit. If the home has been occupied for five years and they had pets the deposit is going to be swallowed up in needed repairs anyway. If not, they are some very unusual tenants.
What part of Kentucky? I live in Louisville and if you needed they help and can get me an appointment i would be glad to go by and inspect for you.
Hi Micheal, at the point that I have to call the tenants myself IS when I hire a new property manager. The more I have to do the more I feel they are not doing the job for which I am paying them. Your suggestion makes sense, but I have found out they were hiding an unauthorized pet as well as having repairs they didn't previously disclose, so it really was more than "stress".
I actually had a tenant in one of my other properties move out after 8 years and it looked identical to when they moved in! I recall their previous reference had said the same about them. Was sad to have them leave! But I think their deposit will be taken up for repairs - repaint of perhaps some unapproved colors - from what I suspect.
Your offer is so great, thanks! But the house is in N. KY very near Cincinnati. I have some friends out there that have offered as well, but I have a message out with the property manager to see what their plan is first. I am confused as to why they seem to be disorganized in contacting me back and have also attempted to clarify who is my direct contact on this property since different people seem to be taking care of different aspects. And yes I feel their maintenance costs are high, so I have some outside contractors also ready to go give me additional bids if they are very high on something, as they historically have been.
Managing Broker / Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2015 · 350 posts · 362 votes
8y
As a management company, we've dealt with the same issue a few times. Here's your potential resolution; hire an off duty police officer. They have full police powers when off duty. Shouldn't cost more than $40 or $50 for an hour of their time. Present the officer with your lease that has proof you have the right to enter and proof of proper notice. They will meet you at the property and inform the tenant that they have been given proper notice and you (or your management) have the legal right to enter. Never had this not work. Even had a couple people who got arrested because the police got their ID and they had outstanding warrants! Note; be ready to be besieged with officers wanting the work. First time we called IMPD we got well over 100 calls or emails back from officers wanting the work.
As a management company, we've dealt with the same issue a few times. Here's your potential resolution; hire an off duty police officer. They have full police powers when off duty. Shouldn't cost more than $40 or $50 for an hour of their time. Present the officer with your lease that has proof you have the right to enter and proof of proper notice. They will meet you at the property and inform the tenant that they have been given proper notice and you (or your management) have the legal right to enter. Never had this not work. Even had a couple people who got arrested because the police got their ID and they had outstanding warrants! Note; be ready to be besieged with officers wanting the work. First time we called IMPD we got well over 100 calls or emails back from officers wanting the work.
Wow. I would give this an extra like if I could. Wish your management company was in the area of this rental, ha! I am going to keep this knowledge in my back pocket for now as I am not local to the property and the current PM company seems to represent that they are unable to take further action, and it is at an inopportune time for myself as I am just about to head across the country. I'm going to interview a new PM shortly and see what actions they take in this type of situation. Thanks!
Managing Broker / Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2015 · 350 posts · 362 votes
8y
You shouldn't have to but even remotely you could coordinate for an off duty police officer and property manager to meet with the appropriate paperwork at the property at a specific time and date. Just a thought.
Leesburg, VA · Member since 2017 · 11 posts · 5 votes
8y
Why show a nice property, occupied by a squalid tenant. It is always better to clean kitchens & bathrooms, paint the whole interior, fix as needed. Then show it empty putting your best foot forward.
Nobody wants to see dishes in the sink, trash in the cans, clothes on the floor, and so on.
An EMPTY property is my opportunity to be proactive, fix absolutely everything I find, preventative maintenance, change all filters, clean out dryer vents, bathroom vents, check for slow drains, clean gutters. My handyman and I always spend 2 weeks in there going after that property with a fine toothed comb, making everything perfect. I do one years service calls in advance, getting huge economy of scale, rather than having to go in and out scheduling with tenant.
Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2017 · 9 posts · 3 votes
8y
Tell your property manager to grow a spine and tell them that their deposit will not be returned if they violate their lease terms. (Which includes access for landlord with prior notice)
This is what I think should be done! But when I talked to them they just said there is nothing they can do and according to their lease they can only take the deposit for physical damages to the property. End of story. ??
I’m wondering who they actually represent - and if I should find another property manager at this point. They have been ok but they property is very low maintenance and has had the same tenants for five years. My other concerns are that their maintenance fees so far have been high and they also don’t represent many properties on my part of town. Their communication with me also tends to lag.
The PMC is right. You can’t take their deposit for the violation you’re explaining.. Security deposits are specifically designed to be used for damages caused by the tenant that are not normal wear and tear. There are some cases where it can be kept if tenant doesn’t pay.
However you can charge for any damage other than wear and tear. Personally if they were there for 5 years and are basically just about moved out as they seem to be you’re not going to be renting the place and turning it over until after they leave anyway. I normally have a tenant move out, then list it and get the paint repair xyz etc. I can’t remember one time when I showed a ropertybehile a tenant was living there.
So if they don’t like the damages you itemized they can dispute it n court. Just make sure you got your before and after pics along with pics of damages and have the work done by others do you have receipts.
And the only reason I’m advocating for letting it go is because the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. By the time you file etc the will of vacated the property. Since they are packing I’m assuming it’s a couple of weeks or less until the end of tenancy. Now if it was a few months left on their lease I would say send a notice with the violation and you can start eviction.
Just call your local police or sheriff's office and tell them you are interested in hiring an off-duty officer. They will let the officers know and the officers will contact you. That's the way it works here.
The office may still be in uniform if they have just completed shift, etc. but if not, they will show a badge and identify themselves. They have full police powers even when off duty. The few times we've done this they also have contacted the police agency of the jurisdiction the issue is in and notified them they were going to be there and perform that service. A couple of time the jurisdiction sent an active-duty officer to the location to assist!
Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2018 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
7y
@Amie D. In the course of 5 years how many times have you/PM been into the property? How many updates/repairs have been done?
The fear in my mind is damage to the property, painted walls, and god knows what else. It's safe to assume you're keeping the damage deposit. I last house I rented (nice property) we lived there for 4 years. We actually fixed **** on our own, swapped parts to fix the stove, cleaned the house, and he still took 3/4 of the damage deposit! HAHA
Really interested to see how it works out! Good luck
@Amie D. In the course of 5 years how many times have you/PM been into the property? How many updates/repairs have been done?
The fear in my mind is damage to the property, painted walls, and god knows what else. It's safe to assume you're keeping the damage deposit. I last house I rented (nice property) we lived there for 4 years. We actually fixed **** on our own, swapped parts to fix the stove, cleaned the house, and he still took 3/4 of the damage deposit! HAHA
Really interested to see how it works out! Good luck
Well, this post is quite old. Still, I find it interesting that we did not inspect in five years and these tenants had much less damage than the next ones put in by new property managers that I hired. The new Pm company was recommended to me by a couple of others in the area too. The newer tenants were only there ten months, had to be evicted, and trashed the place causing thousands in damages. There actually was an inspection done with the new tenants, but I felt the property managers didn’t show some of the worse aspects of their residence in the photos.
The former property managers did not pick the tenants that stayed for five years. I did, working with a realtor who was doing the showings. Just goes to show how far proper screening goes. The new Pm’s were horrible and I doubt they screened at all.
The five year tenants lost their deposit as they left the place messy and had items that needed to be hauled away, etc. The new tenants lost their deposit but it didn’t come close to paying for the damages they caused.
Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2018 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
7y
@Amie D. I didn't realize the age of this thread! Holy crap. That's ridiculous. I'm sorry to hear that. I guess it's the ebb and flow of the business. I only have a two properties and a lot to learn.
Real Estate Broker · Member since 2018 · 28 posts · 8 votes
7y
I was a property manager over 100 properties for a of couple years and helped implement a part of the lease that charged them a $25 fee every time they refused to show and it went up to a $75 fee if it was more than five times . Tenants always say they will allow to show when they are trying to sign a lease, so they’re more then willing to sign off on the charge.
Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
7y
@Amie D. Thanks for coming back and updating us! So often we are left wondering how things worked out.
An important part of the this is that even though you picked a new well recommended PM things still can go wrong. I am going to bet the next tenant you will be closely involved in selection.
@Amie D. Thanks for coming back and updating us! So often we are left wondering how things worked out.
An important part of the this is that even though you picked a new well recommended PM things still can go wrong. I am going to bet the next tenant you will be closely involved in selection.
You’re welcome! But actually I have a different long term property manager elsewhere and I’m not involved in the selection almost at all and they are fine. I prefer it this way - if you own a lot of properties it becomes a lot of overhead. Screening and selecting good tenants is something I feel is the PM’s job and part of why I pay them.
As a renter I would like to add my opinion here. I am closing on a home and am moving out of the rental we have in 5 days. Our property manager wants to show the property. I have boxes everywhere! The boxes cover the outside walls of the living room (including the fireplace). One entire bedroom is full of packed boxes. I have two furniture projects going on in the living/dining room areas where I have boxes on the floor to protect the floors but I'm painting furniture to go in to my new home. I have sent pictures of the house to the property manager from before we started packing. The pictures include every room in the house. Any potential renter right now will be walking into a huge mess where they will have very limited access due to the amount of boxes. Again we are moving out in 5 days! Why can the property manager not wait until we have cleared the home of boxes? Now, I get to take off of work to let them in through the garage (the front entry way is full of boxes so nobody can enter through the front door at this point) and apologize to the potential renters because they will not be able to really see the house as it should be seen to be appreciated. This doesn't look to be the best for me, for the potential renter or the property manager trying to get the property rented out fast. Sometimes it's not about rights but about common sense.