SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
I own a single family rental in Kentucky and the tenants submitted a move out notice last month for when their lease ends on Feb 28.
They were not responsive to the property manager’s requests for showings and when queried the tenants said they are refusing to allow showings. They stated that with their move they have boxes everywhere and the wife is pregnant and so it would cause them too much stress.
Obviously if the property cannot be shown until after they move out this will cause a longer vacancy, which costs me money. The property managers stated that the tenants are in violation of their lease but other than serve them a 30-day notice, of which they will be out sooner at this point anyway, there is nothing else they can do.
I contested if they are in violation of their lease terms, that means they forfeit their deposit, especially since their actions are costing me money in the end. The property managers said they cannot keep the deposit for this - only if there are damages to the property itself after move out.
Has anyone else dealt with anything similar? This is at a very bad time as well because I’m looking at a new residence and investment property currently so obviously do not want the property vacant for long.
SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
8y
Thank you! I live about four hours away and don’t have the literal keys - I have a property management company locally who does, and is responsible for showings etc.
I do find it odd that they just say there is nothing they can do, though I know the tenant has dogs, and am not sure if that is part of the equation. This is very strange and I’ve never dealt with this before at any of my properties.
SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
8y
This is what I think should be done! But when I talked to them they just said there is nothing they can do and according to their lease they can only take the deposit for physical damages to the property. End of story. ??
I’m wondering who they actually represent - and if I should find another property manager at this point. They have been ok but they property is very low maintenance and has had the same tenants for five years. My other concerns are that their maintenance fees so far have been high and they also don’t represent many properties on my part of town. Their communication with me also tends to lag.
Real Estate Broker · Temecula, CA · Member since 2014 · 992 posts · 782 votes
8y
We have in our lease a $100 fine per time they refuse showings. This way, they either accomodate or we get a good amount of money to delay.
Also, they dont have the right to say no. They need to given ample notice and then the prop manager is allowed to go in. (Obviously tough to enforce, especially if they have pets, etc) But I guess you could show that their actions are causing yo u damages and take them to court.
SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
8y
Thanks! This is my frustration when the current property managers are just throwing their hands up in the air and say “there is nothing we can do” and as the clock ticks by.
I’m going to request they add such an addendum to the next lease to spell it out. However in lieu of that I’ve also got another recommendation of a prop manager that also specializes in properties in my area. I may sell this one and don’t want this issue to happen again in that case as well.
Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
8y
I have to be honest, after 5 years dont you think you will have some turnover time, painting etc.? Has the Pm done a walk through to estimate turnover? Have they booked a painter? I would have the pm notice them that they will do an inspection if they havent already to look at turnover needs. If the home is in ok shape to show have her notice them on a specific test time for showing. Not will you but nicely saying we will be there. Otherwise take calls and set an open house the 3rd. Also when will they really be out? find that out and use it.I doubt they are moving on the 28th. The PM should have a relationship after 5 years working with these tenants. Maybe she is not using that well to get in the door.
"The showing is on XXX at XXX. Please remove or contain the pets at this time. If they were to escape or hurt someone you are responsible."
Your PM is right about not being able to use the security deposit though.
This is what I would think would be done. It seems like they are letting the tenants be the boss/have control and I find this odd.
It is written into the lease that they must allow showings with 24 hours notice and I believe that is state law as well. So they are in violation of their lease and other agents suggested to me that equates forfeiting their deposit; however the current pm company seems to be unwilling to do anything but just let them move out on the tenants desired terms.
I think it's time for a new pm. And make sure you look over their tenant lease before signing on.
This evening I contacted the pm that was recommended to me today. The current management company has been ok as most of their processes are automated and the house is very low maintenance. But also their maintenance fees are high and their communication on this and other issues seems to lag.
I had looked over their original lease but it seems to me the 24 hours notice written right into the lease should cover this situation, but apparently need to make it explicit with an addendum that they will incur the financial penalty for violating the terms of the lease.
I have to be honest, after 5 years dont you think you will have some turnover time, painting etc.? Has the Pm done a walk through to estimate turnover? Have they booked a painter? I would have the pm notice them that they will do an inspection if they havent already to look at turnover needs. If the home is in ok shape to show have her notice them on a specific test time for showing. Not will you but nicely saying we will be there. Otherwise take calls and set an open house the 3rd. Also when will they really be out? find that out and use it.I doubt they are moving on the 28th. The PM should have a relationship after 5 years working with these tenants. Maybe she is not using that well to get in the door.
I do not think they plan to do an inspection until the walk out inspection with the tenant. When I asked the pm how they showed properties etc (the tenants were placed by an outside agent originally) it sounded like they weren’t plannng on showing until the tenant moved out anyway, and when I asked if they ever show beforehand they said “we can do it that way too.”
When they told me the tenant wasn’t allowing showings they also said the tenant suggested that some repairs they didn’t report would need to be done and the place “probably needed painting.”
I’m suspicious because when the tenants moved in they wanted to paint the interior (themselves) and I declined because they wanted to use dark purples/oranges etc and it just had been painted anyway. The pm mentioned they were upset at the time so I wonder if they painted anyway and are trying to hide that fact alongside ???
Investor · Odenton, MD · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 144 votes
8y
Just another point of view here. You are 14 days from their move out. So at most you would be 14 days behind schedule. I would ask myself, how much money am I really going to lose in those 14 days? At this point realistically, PM notifies them tomorrow, you wait 24 hours and now you have at best 12 days. Nothing is going to be done over the weekend. So now you have are down to 10 days. So how much money are you losing in the 10 days.
The other question I would ask myself is, do I really want to show the place in the current condition? Not knowing what condition it is in, I am not sure I would want to show it.
I understand your frustrations with the PM but this late in the game I would schedule the inspection for the first business day after the 28th and start the turnover at that time. I also may consider a new PM if I felt this one is not compatible with how I want things handled.
Just my thoughts from outside the situation.
An old woman once told me "One gets more bees with sugar than vinegar".
😀
Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
8y
You pay the PM have her inspect the house and book painters now. She is not/should not be doing a move out inspection she is doing an assessment of need. to make rent ready repairs. If the tenant said it needs painting,I bet it does. Book for March1. It is 5 years you will have to paint however if they painted thier colors that repainting you can likely charge. Just plain painting after 5 years you probably cant justify a charge. Right now my goal would be rent ready and rented.
Real Estate Agent · Tucker, GA · Member since 2016 · 90 posts · 144 votes
8y
My lease specifically states that we will give notice of x and that if they refuse they will be charged 75 dollars per time. Also it states that they will give 60-90 days written notice prior to moving out and I will be allowed to market the property during this time.
Investor · Prairieville, LA · Member since 2015 · 311 posts · 424 votes
8y
Like @Maricela Chavez and @Christine Kankowski I have a fine set up each and every time a tenant refuses a showing. Mine is quite steep, a couple hundred dollars per refusal. I put this in my lease after running into this situation. Some tenants expect you to lose a month's rent when they move out-it is not their money so they don't care. When they have THEIR money involved, there is a different tune. At some point of multiple refusals, they will owe you money upon move-out. These clauses, of course, must not conflict with your state or local laws.
It seems that the property manager does not want any conflict hence their relaxed attitude for showings. You may be stuck this time absent the clause and the actions of the property manager, but make sure you have the clause in the lease and a property manager who will enforce it next time. If state law supports it, you may have access to the deposit.
Rental Property Investor · The Vampire State · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
8y
I agree with others like @Colleen F. that have said it will probably need some work after 5 years of tenancy, so you wouldn't be able to get someone to occupy within 24 hours to avoid any vacancy. However, I think there is another dynamic in play here.
I'm cynical, but depending on your contract the PM is going to get paid either way. They have no reason to "make waves" with your tenants, as they are getting paid for the turnover expenses, new tenant onboarding, and may even get paid for your property being vacant. If you keep the tenant's security deposit (not sure you are able to without a penalty written into your lease), THEY don't get a cut of that. Bluntly, it's not their money, so they don't have the same level of concern that you do about the situation.
They say you have to "manage the manager." It sounds like you need to do that in this case. Moving forward, I think you have to add a clause to your lease to avoid this situation in the future. most of my lease clauses are because of a previous situation I encountered. Good luck!
Real Estate Broker · St Petersburg · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
8y
Amie,
I know you are beyond frustrated with the tenant and PM, but I say that you would NOT barge into that house when no one has given you permission to do so if you managed yourself. People today are crazy as xxxx. They also could accuse you of all kinds of things if you go on that house when they have expressly stated to not do so. I just had a tenant last week refuse me to show the house for sale because he has weapons in the house, blah blah blah...
The idea of the fee for refusing to show is a good idea, plus trying to work with them on maybe an open house once a week from x to x for 2 hours. I do this all the time and it seems to work out great for both parties. You get more bees with honey. I also tell the tenants that when they were looking for a rental, people were moving too with boxes all over the place so people understand. Maybe give the tenant a $50 card to go get herself a mani/pedi, go out to lunch or dinner. There are always several ways to get things done.
Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
8y
As a landlord I would consider 5 straight years without a vacancy as a success. Wait until they move out and reassess the turnover you are going to have to do and then fill it from there.
Rental Property Investor · Baltimore County Maryland and Tampa Florida · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
8y
This topic seems to come up a lot, and I am in the camp that you do not usually show a unit until it is empty. Yes, vacancy costs money, but vacancy should be factored into your numbers anyway. Vacancy is part of business and to be expected.
Showing the unit while it's occupied is not only a hassle for the current (long term!) tenants, but potential applicants do not get to see the unit for what it is. The place is full of stuff, boxes, and whatever else. You don't know how much repair is truly needed. I've heard several times stories of landlords showing an occupied unit, getting a lease for a new tenant, and then finding themselves in a bunch of drama because either the original tenant didn't move out in time or the place needed more repair than they expected and had to push back the new tenant's move-in date. That is not something a professional, seasoned PM would do.
The unit should become vacant, then you get it rent-ready, and then you show the unit and rent it out. Why sour a good relationship with long-term tenants over something that you should have factored into your business and numbers anyway?
@Nicole A. gave great advice. Make sure you are showing the best possible product you can.
What are your state laws on entry? If your lease conflicts with the law, its unenforceable anyway.
You would not have hired the PM if they were not a professional, right? Let them do their job. If they do not get the results you want, hire a new one or do it yourself, but don't micro manage them in the meantime.
SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
8y
Thanks for the opinions all!
@Bill F., it's nice that you feel that way, however at my other + previous properties the property is shown with the current tenants in. They have had no problems renting it and the vacancy is limited to the time it takes for maintenance and repairs to turnover the place, which is usually a week or less especially since they are working to deadline with new people moving in by a certain date already. There haven't always been neat freaks living there either. Unless the current tenants are hoarders or have demolished the place (at which point I'd want to know in advance anyway) the place is going to show decently. Many times it shows better with people living there and furnishings in place than totally vacant.
I would think that it is in due process of hiring that anyone would review a property manager's lease and make sure it is in accordance with state laws, if they are not using their own reviewed by a lawyer.
Sure, there is a property manager doing their job - but if it their methods are losing the owner money, something needs to change - either the way they manage your property or the pm themselves. I am interviewing another manager that was recommended to me as well as talking to the current PM further on this situation so it doesn't happen again.
@Nicole A., in my view they "were" long term tenants - but are no longer as they are now moving out. The one souring the relationship is the one not acting in accordance to policies clearly outlined on the lease they signed as well as state law. Not much to be done now but at least I'm aware for the future.
@Michael Noto thanks! I do consider it a success. The current tenants were actually placed by myself and another agent working together, not the current PM's. At this point I am taking it as a learning experience moving forward and will have the addendum for this situation written explicitly into future leases, as it seems Nicole A pointed out, this seems to happen frequently with others.
@Kim Meredith Hampton, thanks, but I'm not barging in nor am I driving four hours to do so. This is what I have property managers to take care of. As I mentioned above, I'm going to have a clause written into future leases address this with fees as others have stated so it does not become a problem again. I don't deal with the tenant for the same reason - I have pm's to do that. Your giftcard suggestion is appreciated but I'm not one to pay them to go along with the terms of a lease everyone signed, especially when I suspect they are covering something up by not allowing showings of the property.
@Wesley W., I don't realistically expect someone to occupy within 24 hours to avoid any vacancy, but the vacancy time would be lessened if we had a signed lease before the current tenants moved out, instead of waiting for them to move out, doing maintenance and then showing an empty house mid-winter to then be rented. But truly to me, they seem rather unconcerned about doing anything about it, that's true. They do not get paid when the property is vacant, however they manage quite a few properties so I'm guessing one rental vacant for a longer time due to this is no skin off their backs. I agree and do think you need to manage the manager, as I've observed with other managers in the past. I'm going to talk to them again and make sure there is an addendum to this in the future, if I do stay with them.
@David S. and @Maricela Chavez, yes I am going to talk to them about adding this in. When they sent over the original lease they said I could add or change any addendums I wanted.
@Colleen F., yes I am going to ask what they plan for scheduling the inspections and repairs. This is the first time I have turned over a property with this PM so it seems we are already not on the same page with things so may as well check.
@Brian Cardwell yes at this point there isn't much to be done, but they have actually been refusing showings since shortly after they gave a 30-day notice and the property was re-listed for rent. Then when I tried contacting the property managers back, they were lagging in getting back to me about what was going on or being done about it. I'm adding the addendum and possibly hiring a different property manager who takes a different stance on enforcing the terms of the lease, so I don't end up losing monetarily next time.
Rental Property Investor · Baltimore County Maryland and Tampa Florida · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
8y
@Amie D. I think you missed what I was actually pointing out. And to be a little blunt, your view is wrong. Until those tenants actually move out, they are indeed still your tenants. Just because someone gives notice that they're vacating doesn't mean you suddenly treat them otherwise. They are still a tenant and a customer of your business.
The point is that you should not expect to show a unit and get a signed lease before the current tenant has even moved out. You are setting yourself up for a lot of headaches doing that. Going about things this way increases the likelihood of headaches (as I described in my first post).
However, it sounds like you are convinced that your PM should be showing a unit while still occupied despite a few seasoned investors/landlords suggesting otherwise.
Did you factor vacancy costs into your analysis before purchasing this property?
SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
8y
Well, looks like one reason they may not want showings is that they have had an extra (unapproved and without paying pet rent etc) pet there. Just had a chat with the neighbor over any changes that may have been going on at that rental house...
