A Father came to look at our rental for his newly graduated college son. I gave the Father a Rental Application as well as an Oregon Rental Application Addendum & Fee Disclosure. The Father dropped of both signed agreements (by his son) two days later with a $50 non-refundable processing fee. During the approval process the son called me and asked if I would make some term adjustments on the Fee Disclosure. I agreed to a pro-rate of 1st months rent and a reduced early lease termination fee. In my mind this oral agreement was only "upon approval." The son however (young) felt that our agreement on terms translated to his approval and said as much to his parents. The parents are livid and telling me I have an oral binding contract with there son and threatening to call an attorney! At no time did I ever tell the son he was approved and I still actually have his $50 un-cashed check. Now we so scared we want to take the unit off the market. A friend suggested mailing check back with no comment? I'm in the State of Oregon.

@Nina Buckley, since everyone and his brother has tossed in his comments, I will too. Here are my thoughts. First, I have rented to cops and had both good and bad outcomes. Cops are actually people with a higher stress job than normal that requires a stronger more firm personality or they don't survive in the job. Being people, there are both good and bad, often with mixtures of each in varying quantities. Most cops in my experience are good, but a bit on the pushy side. I would treat them the way a cop treats others. Mr. Smith I appreciate the concern for your son, but I will follow the advice of my lawyer, I am sure you in your line of work you can appreciate that. I am sure you can appreciate my position as you have folks telling you that they pay your salary and want your badge number, and will have your job. Hopefully that will stop it, but if it does not there are other things you can do. These should be a last resort, because when you go for the throat the other side can also escalate. If they do not cease and desist most states have a law called stalking. It is a pattern of conduct intended to harass another person that in fact does harass another person. You might want to say something to the effect of I know you may not mean to, but I am feeling fearful for my safety based upon your actions and tone of your words. Please stop contacting me and direct all future contact to my attorney and here is his name and address. If I receive contact after this I will have to believe you are intentionally stalking me and take appropriate legal action. Keep in mind that now that your attorney has said no more contact he may have to make this contact for you. Next as to your legal obligation, and has a contract been formed? Every state may have different laws, but most have a statute of frauds that require contracts of over $10,000 or for more than 1 year must be in writing Some require contracts for the sale of land or for leases be in writing but that varies a lot. Now it is possible for a person to bypass the requirement that the agreement be in writing by detrimental reliance. That is where in reliance on your oral agreement they expended funds or took an action that substantially changed their financial position to their detriment. An example would be you agree to rent for $500 per month for 1 year and they move 3 states, and show up and you rescind the contract and they must stay in a motel for 2 months (at $2K per month) until they rent another place. The burden of proving the existence of the oral contract is on THEM. They must also prove the detrimental reliance and that it was reasonable to do so. It is unlikely they would win. Finally I am concerned about your reaction to all of this. You are clearly a nice person who is very upset about the accusations and tone of the other parties. While it is hard to do so please do not willingly give them the power to ruin your day, week or even investing career. You cannot control how others may act, but you can control how you react to them. It takes time, but get up and think what you have to be grateful for; Being healthy, having a spouse you love and enjoy being with, having children who you love, grandchildren, enough to eat, money to pay your mortgage with, etc. If necessary walk through a cancer ward and give thanks someone or a child you love is not laying there. There are many horrible things in life to cause you worry and grief, this is not one of them. Consciously decide you will not let it bother you as it is not really important in the long run. Life holds much wonder and beauty that we should stop and enjoy. There is often grief and sadness we each must bear, but this incident is a tiny drop in a vast ocean that you should not give the time of day. I truly hope this helps you in some way, feel free to contact me if you want to talk more. I have easily dealt with over a 100 cops, and as many lawyers. Most are good, a fair number are irritating, and a very tiny amount are truly crooked. I actually caused the last crooked cop I met to lose his certification, and he is now a hairdresser. He was not evil, just misguided. He did lie in court in a case I prosecuted. He did not lie to convict an innocent person, he just lied to puff himself up and feel important. As I could never trust his word again, and his boss would not remove him as he was a friend of the mayor, it became necessary to do a criminal investigation and remove him from office. He had a wife and children, it was not fun for anyone involved. I wish you the best of luck. you will do fine, and you will overcome this, I promise.

@Chris Moore: No cop hate here. I just do not like bullies, cop or no cop. They are trying to bully this LL. However, after doing this long enough, you start to know which professions have an "authority complex" and can be difficult to work with.

This is interesting. I just got off the phone with a large and respected rental management company in this area and spoke to the Principle Broker (was thinking after all this to just go with a management company). She informed me that oral contracts are not binding in the State of Oregon for Real Estate, PERIOD! Yahoo!

Is agreeing to rental terms considered a binding verbal contract?

Thomas S.

Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes

8y

You do not have a binding contract. All you had was a back and forth phone conversation prior to accepting an applicant. That does not constitute a contract.

Put on your investor/landlord hat and tell the father, regardless of what his actions are, that his son has been declined.

I would likely tell the father to pound sand and ask if he would like my lawyers contact information. But that's just me knowing full well the parents are p*ssing into the wind.

2 Reply

Nina B.

OP

Real Estate Investor · White Salmon, WA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 9 votes

8y

Thanks Tom! To be honest this is the first property we've rented to the general public (other two are corporate rentals) and to have this happen straight out of the gate has us both terrified, and the Father is a police officer...don't know if that matters...but the whole thing scared us. Now we are wanting to not rent anything out and contact an attorney to make sure we are totally protected from Liability as much as possible. We are sole-proprietor's now.

0 Reply

Thomas S.

Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes

8y

Now their reaction is understandable. He is a cop, most have superiority complexes and like to push their weight around. He is simply trying to bully you.

I love dealing with these types of people but for a newbie it can definatly be intimidating. My advice is that you simply tell the son he is not accepted and move on screening applicants. You have more than enough grounds to reject. Do not be deterred, ignore all future attempts to contact you.

The only thing worse that renting to officers is renting to their young children.

4 Reply

Tyler Dunlap

Real Estate Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2014 · 32 posts · 38 votes

8y

I don’t know Oregon law but I know a little contract law. I don’t think there’s a contract. Seems like there’s a lack of consideration here, but do not cash that check! It would act as consideration and could bind you to your word. It also seems that he did not rely on his mistaken belief to his detriment. Let them call an attorney yadda yadda. They will find a new place and move on.

0 Reply

Tyler Dunlap

Real Estate Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2014 · 32 posts · 38 votes

8y

@Nina B. On second reading, you may be able to cash the check and get away with it, but I wouldn't risk it. I would just do what @Thomas S. said, just tell them their son has been declined.

Lol @ the father being a cop. I think being a cop is a highly admirable profession. I'm sure he knows a bit about criminal law. But I think it's unlikely he really knows contract law. Again, with @Thomas S. on this one, tell him to pound sand.

0 Reply

Nina B.

OP

Real Estate Investor · White Salmon, WA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 9 votes

8y

Thanks again Tyler and Tom, you've made me feel much so much better! I have absolutely NO INTENTION of cashing this check and I'm running down to the post office right after I post this to mail it off! I do feel bad for the kid, he was excited about his first apartment and I can see how a young person never having done this would have jumped to that conclusion. Next time I'll make myself perfectly clear...agreeing on terms does not constitute approval of the application!

0 Reply

Thomas S.

Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes

8y

Hopefully you will get better applicants, a young kid renting his first apartment would never pass my screening.

0 Reply

Nina B.

OP

Real Estate Investor · White Salmon, WA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 9 votes

8y

Another quick question since this came up with the son renting. Am I required by law to take co-signers? The parents wanted to co-sign. I don't think going forward that I want a co-sign situation. Your thoughts?

0 Reply

Russell BrazilBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes

8y

The Statute of Frauds requires it to be in writing. You can also suggest to this cop that you feel he is using his position of government authority in a threatening manner, and you will file a complaint with his department if he continues to do so.

[email protected]301-893-4635 Podcast Guest on Show #192

District Invest Group545 Reviews

Website View Page

10 Reply

Donald S.

Accountant · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2017 · 409 posts · 362 votes

8y

@Nina B. there's no laws requiring co-signers for leases, however I wouldn't balk at the idea. If something happens then the parents are liable as well, it's added protection to the landlord. That is assuming the parents have credit worth risking, if it's already trash then that doesn't matter.

0 Reply

Joe SplitrockPro Member

Moderator

Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes

8y

@Nina B. you are making the right decision to deny them. Any time someone threatens to call an attorney, cease all communications with them. They are verbally threatening you. Tell them never to contact you again. If they try to contact you again, tell them they are harassing you and block their number.

Yes he is a cop, which likely means he thinks he is above the law. A surprisingly large number of police will lie, plant evidence and even break the law, believing they are above it. That is why I don't rent to law enforcement.

Above all, I can't stress more the importance of not talking to them, verbal or written. Any phone conversation is verbal and there is no way to prove what you said. Refuse to discuss the situation with anyone, but your attorney and you will be fine. They will go away.

3 Reply

Thomas S.

Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes

8y

I avoid co-signers for the simple that it overcomplicates the business. In the case of a young tenant the parents/co-signers will probably interject themselves into the landlord tenant relationship. More layers of drama.

Other than renting to university/college students I would never accept any applicant that could not pass screening on their own merit. It is basically working to qualify a otherwise unqualified applicant. Pass.

1 Reply

Tom GimerBusiness Member

DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes

8y

Sorry to rain on the "you're in the clear" parade but I can see why the tenant would feel like he was approved.

"I agreed to a pro-rate of 1st months rent and a reduced early lease termination fee" sure sounds like an agreement to me.

I'm not saying there is a lease... only that there is a mess.

Gimer Law516 Reviews

Website View Page

2 Reply

Steve Vaughan

Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes

8y

Just in general, applicants that call to query or ask favors right away or the day after submitting and before the screening is done are a no-go for me. I like to see patience. You know what curiosity got the cat, right? Same thing here. Giving me additional information or clarifying something is way different than calling to bug me about stuff early in.

On things like this with implied approval - need to be clear and preface every answer with - 'well, if it works out and you are approved...' 'we'll consider doing that if you even get approval'...'too early to tell and a non-issue if you aren't even approved'.... you get the drift. Good advice above so I'll stop now.

4 Reply

Matthew Olszak

Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

8y

@Nina B. Cash that check. Its unrelated to the lease, its to pay for your processing of the application, which you have done. That should have been cashed before even looking at the app.

If I was in a mood to argue, I'd ask the parents what exactly are the terms of the oral contract you supposedly agreed to? They aren't going to get an attorney, they aren't going to sue, and even if they did you have nothing to worry about. I'd just tell them his application has been declined, you don't know why he told them he was approved since the process takes at least a few days, and there was certainly no meeting of the minds between the 4 of you. Then stop taking their calls. Its understandable why he thought he was approved, but the parents reaction tells me this isn't a group I'd want to deal with.

1 Reply

John N.

Panama City, FL · Member since 2017 · 83 posts · 77 votes

8y

Dad is trying to bully you. Period.

1 Reply

Joseph M.

Rental Property Investor · Sacramento Area, CA · Member since 2017 · 45 posts · 64 votes

8y

Hi,

First, who cares what the father does for a living; cop or no cop. You were not talking to the father and he is not your prospective tenant. If the father is throwing around "I am a police officer" attitude, I would give a nice call to his chief or immediate supervisor. That will stop him cold! Second, you had a simple conversation with a prospective tenant. This happens all the time and it is not until both parties agree and sign the lease that you really have a binding contract. After all, a verbal agreement is as good as the paper it is written on. Third, Like Tyler said, DO NOT cash that check. That may look like you have approved the tenant. Plus, if this tenant is giving you this much grief BEFORE he is actually a tenant, what do you think he will do once he has moved in.

I would keep moving forward and get your property rented to someone with less demands and with a solid rental history. Your easiest eviction is your application process!

1 Reply

Nina B.

OP

Real Estate Investor · White Salmon, WA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 9 votes

8y

This thing has turned into a nightmare!

Thank you so much everyone for your responses and advice, as I sit here with knots in my stomach it makes me feel I have some support on my side!

I spoke with my attorney yesterday and he advised NOT talking to the parents as they are not the tenant and advised returning the uncashed application fee. He didn't say anything about declining the application, however, to be on the safe side I did print out an Oregon Form 43 Denial letter and mailed it along with the check. Reasons for denial, insufficient income and lack of rental history (both true). The parents texted me this morning to check on the "resolution of the apartment." I texted them back, told them that I had been advised to communicate with the tenant only, but did tell them that the application had been denied and that the reasons for denial and the application fee were in the mail addressed to the son/tenant.

Since then I have received texts from all parties, son and parents. They are adamant that we have both a verbal and signed contract (the son signed a fee disclosure statement and the rental application only), they have all stated that I verbally told them the son was approved and he could have the apartment (NEVER happened) and stated that if I don't respond to them and honor my commitment by the end of today they are hiring an attorney, reporting me to the housing authority for breach of contract, fraud and discrimination, and reporting me to the BBB etc. etc. I have not responded to any of the texts.

I'm utterly blown away, I simply don't understand why under the current circumstances they'd even still want to rent the apartment?

2 Reply

Matthew Olszak

Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

8y

Originally posted by @Nina B.:

I'm utterly blown away, I simply don't understand why under the current circumstances they'd even still want to rent the apartment?

Exactly - like you are going to say, "Ok, you've convinced me, please don't call the BBB!". I'd just block them at this point.

1 Reply

Wesley W.

Rental Property Investor · The Vampire State · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

8y

Whatever grief they give you at this point, it will PALE in comparison to the grief you would get if this kid became your tenant.

"A nail head is bulging on my living room wall - I am reporting you!"

"My 6 pit bulls are emotional support animals - if you don't let me keep them I am reporting you!"

"Hey, my dad's a cop and he says that what you said/did/look like is a violation of section blah blah blah"

You dodged a bullet with this tenancy. Do not respond to any more communications from them. They will try to use it against you. If you ignore them, they will probably go away.

6 Reply

Steve Vaughan

Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes

8y

Yeah, when the pushy text to check app status (even when not this combative), I text back that 'the decision is in writing and in the mail. I went to bat for you. Hope it works out!'

Another thread was asking about having an entity as a mgt co. Nice to have a 'bad guy' in times like these.

You'll get through this, Nina. Next time your attorney advises NOT to talk to the parents, don't even text them ;)

0 Reply

Chris Moore

Rental Property Investor · Mountain View, CA · Member since 2015 · 73 posts · 17 votes

8y

@Joe splitrock, @Russell Brazil, @Thomas S.

Wow lot's of totally speculative cop hate here. Parents sound like every pissed of parent that misunderstood when their kid told his parents he had the place after talking to you.

I didn't see the part where he said rent to my son or I'll arrest you, but sure, totally call his department and effect his career. Very responsible and kind advice...

To the original poster: I love co-sign for young tenants because in my experience that few thousand dollars that the kid won't ever have the ability to pay, the parents will to avoid all 3 of them having a judgement against them. For me it was usually taken care of with one quick phone call. Also I"m sorry you are going through this and agree you are not bound to anything, but hopefully its a lesson to be more clear in the future so you can avoid this entire thing.

0 Reply

Russell BrazilBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes

8y

Originally posted by @Chris Moore:

@Joe splitrock, @Russell Brazil, @Thomas S.

Wow lot's of totally speculative cop hate here. Parents sound like every pissed of parent that misunderstood when their kid told his parents he had the place after talking to you.

I didn't see the part where he said rent to my son or I'll arrest you, but sure, totally call his department and effect his career. Very responsible and kind advice...

To the original poster: I love co-sign for young tenants because in my experience that few thousand dollars that the kid won't ever have the ability to pay, the parents will to avoid all 3 of them having a judgement against them. For me it was usually taken care of with one quick phone call. Also I"m sorry you are going through this and agree you are not bound to anything, but hopefully its a lesson to be more clear in the future so you can avoid this entire thing.

You are right. Its perfectly unreasonable to report him to his supervisors while the guy is threatening to destroy the ops life. "by the end of today they are hiring an attorney, reporting me to the housing authority for breach of contract, fraud and discrimination, and reporting me to the BBB etc. etc" Eye roll

[email protected]301-893-4635 Podcast Guest on Show #192

District Invest Group545 Reviews

Website View Page

5 Reply

Bob B.

Investor · Jasper GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

8y

@Nina B. I'm wondering why you didn't listen to your attorney when he said not to talk with them. Find a qualified applicant and get the place rented. Don't worry about this family and count your lucky stars you didn't rent to him. Aso, NEVER allow the tenant to alter your lease. I don't know anyone that's ever rented a car or anything else and was allowed to alter the terms of the agreement. You'll be ok.

Find a good tenant.

Good Luck

3 Reply

Chris Moore

Rental Property Investor · Mountain View, CA · Member since 2015 · 73 posts · 17 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:

Originally posted by @Chris Moore:

@Joe splitrock, @Russell Brazil, @Thomas S.

Wow lot's of totally speculative cop hate here. Parents sound like every pissed of parent that misunderstood when their kid told his parents he had the place after talking to you.

I didn't see the part where he said rent to my son or I'll arrest you, but sure, totally call his department and effect his career. Very responsible and kind advice...

To the original poster: I love co-sign for young tenants because in my experience that few thousand dollars that the kid won't ever have the ability to pay, the parents will to avoid all 3 of them having a judgement against them. For me it was usually taken care of with one quick phone call. Also I"m sorry you are going through this and agree you are not bound to anything, but hopefully its a lesson to be more clear in the future so you can avoid this entire thing.

You are right. Its perfectly unreasonable to report him to his supervisors while the guy is threatening to destroy the ops life. "by the end of today they are hiring an attorney, reporting me to the housing authority for breach of contract, fraud and discrimination, and reporting me to the BBB etc. etc" Eye roll

Destroy the ops life? Really? "Eye Roll"

What does threatening to get a lawyer and reporting someone to the BBB have to do with him being a cop? If he was a lawyer would you call the Bar association?, if he was a Surgeon would you call the Chief of Medicine?,If he was framer would you call the Foreman? I highly doubt it.

0 Reply

Is agreeing to rental terms considered a binding verbal contract?

Is agreeing to rental terms considered a binding verbal contract?

Most Popular Reply

64 Replies