Is agreeing to rental terms considered a binding verbal contract?
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Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
8yThe Statute of Frauds requires it to be in writing. You can also suggest to this cop that you feel he is using his position of government authority in a threatening manner, and you will file a complaint with his department if he continues to do so.
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- Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Chris Moore:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Chris Moore:
@Joe splitrock, @Russell Brazil, @Thomas S.
Wow lot's of totally speculative cop hate here. Parents sound like every pissed of parent that misunderstood when their kid told his parents he had the place after talking to you.
I didn't see the part where he said rent to my son or I'll arrest you, but sure, totally call his department and effect his career. Very responsible and kind advice...
To the original poster: I love co-sign for young tenants because in my experience that few thousand dollars that the kid won't ever have the ability to pay, the parents will to avoid all 3 of them having a judgement against them. For me it was usually taken care of with one quick phone call. Also I"m sorry you are going through this and agree you are not bound to anything, but hopefully its a lesson to be more clear in the future so you can avoid this entire thing.
You are right. Its perfectly unreasonable to report him to his supervisors while the guy is threatening to destroy the ops life. "by the end of today they are hiring an attorney, reporting me to the housing authority for breach of contract, fraud and discrimination, and reporting me to the BBB etc. etc" Eye roll
Destroy the ops life? Really? "Eye Roll"
What does threatening to get a lawyer and reporting someone to the BBB have to do with him being a cop? If he was a lawyer would you call the Bar association?, if he was a Surgeon would you call the Chief of Medicine?,If he was framer would you call the Foreman? I highly doubt it.
Surely you would agree that a member of law enforcement has more ability to harass and make ones life difficult that your other examples if they were inclined to do so do you not?
- Rental Property Investor · Mountain View, CA · Member since 2015 · 73 posts · 17 votes8y
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
Originally posted by @Chris Moore:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Chris Moore:
@Joe splitrock, @Russell Brazil, @Thomas S.
Wow lot's of totally speculative cop hate here. Parents sound like every pissed of parent that misunderstood when their kid told his parents he had the place after talking to you.
I didn't see the part where he said rent to my son or I'll arrest you, but sure, totally call his department and effect his career. Very responsible and kind advice...
To the original poster: I love co-sign for young tenants because in my experience that few thousand dollars that the kid won't ever have the ability to pay, the parents will to avoid all 3 of them having a judgement against them. For me it was usually taken care of with one quick phone call. Also I"m sorry you are going through this and agree you are not bound to anything, but hopefully its a lesson to be more clear in the future so you can avoid this entire thing.
You are right. Its perfectly unreasonable to report him to his supervisors while the guy is threatening to destroy the ops life. "by the end of today they are hiring an attorney, reporting me to the housing authority for breach of contract, fraud and discrimination, and reporting me to the BBB etc. etc" Eye roll
Destroy the ops life? Really? "Eye Roll"
What does threatening to get a lawyer and reporting someone to the BBB have to do with him being a cop? If he was a lawyer would you call the Bar association?, if he was a Surgeon would you call the Chief of Medicine?,If he was framer would you call the Foreman? I highly doubt it.
Surely you would agree that a member of law enforcement has more ability to harass and make ones life difficult that your other examples if they were inclined to do so do you not?
Surely you would agree that a trained veteran of the military had more ability to cause you physical harm than an average citizen, but you don't get to effect someone's livelyhood for a perceived potential to cause harassment.
- 8yNina B.Real Estate Investor · White Salmon, WA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 9 votesOP
Thanks again everyone for all the advice to this total novice. I feel I've gotten a degree in landlord do's and don'ts in two days!
"Yes" you are absolutely right, I should not have responded to the Parents (and absolutely will not going forward!) I still struggle with the "needing to be liked" and "this was a simple misunderstanding, I'm not a bad person" thing. In a way though I'm glad this happened my first time out, really good lessons learned!!!
I have not intention of filing a complaint on the Father and don't think it will come to that. I think they are just very, very protective parents who truly believe their position and are trying to protect there son and want to show him how to "fight the good fight"...I guess?
At the moment I'm writing down every last detail of events over the last four days just in case I'll need it going forward. Hopefully I won't need it!
PS. As I was writing down my time line of events I realized that when I was discussing the Fee Disclosure/Terms with the Son, the son actually had the Fee Disclosure and Rental Application in his possession! I hadn't even seen it yet, so how could I possibly have approved him? He only dropped off the application a day and a half later!
- Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
@Nina B., since everyone and his brother has tossed in his comments, I will too. Here are my thoughts. First, I have rented to cops and had both good and bad outcomes. Cops are actually people with a higher stress job than normal that requires a stronger more firm personality or they don't survive in the job. Being people, there are both good and bad, often with mixtures of each in varying quantities. Most cops in my experience are good, but a bit on the pushy side. I would treat them the way a cop treats others. Mr. Smith I appreciate the concern for your son, but I will follow the advice of my lawyer, I am sure you in your line of work you can appreciate that. I am sure you can appreciate my position as you have folks telling you that they pay your salary and want your badge number, and will have your job. Hopefully that will stop it, but if it does not there are other things you can do. These should be a last resort, because when you go for the throat the other side can also escalate. If they do not cease and desist most states have a law called stalking. It is a pattern of conduct intended to harass another person that in fact does harass another person. You might want to say something to the effect of I know you may not mean to, but I am feeling fearful for my safety based upon your actions and tone of your words. Please stop contacting me and direct all future contact to my attorney and here is his name and address. If I receive contact after this I will have to believe you are intentionally stalking me and take appropriate legal action. Keep in mind that now that your attorney has said no more contact he may have to make this contact for you.
Next as to your legal obligation, and has a contract been formed? Every state may have different laws, but most have a statute of frauds that require contracts of over $10,000 or for more than 1 year must be in writing Some require contracts for the sale of land or for leases be in writing but that varies a lot. Now it is possible for a person to bypass the requirement that the agreement be in writing by detrimental reliance. That is where in reliance on your oral agreement they expended funds or took an action that substantially changed their financial position to their detriment. An example would be you agree to rent for $500 per month for 1 year and they move 3 states, and show up and you rescind the contract and they must stay in a motel for 2 months (at $2K per month) until they rent another place. The burden of proving the existence of the oral contract is on THEM. They must also prove the detrimental reliance and that it was reasonable to do so. It is unlikely they would win.
Finally I am concerned about your reaction to all of this. You are clearly a nice person who is very upset about the accusations and tone of the other parties. While it is hard to do so please do not willingly give them the power to ruin your day, week or even investing career. You cannot control how others may act, but you can control how you react to them. It takes time, but get up and think what you have to be grateful for; Being healthy, having a spouse you love and enjoy being with, having children who you love, grandchildren, enough to eat, money to pay your mortgage with, etc. If necessary walk through a cancer ward and give thanks someone or a child you love is not laying there. There are many horrible things in life to cause you worry and grief, this is not one of them. Consciously decide you will not let it bother you as it is not really important in the long run. Life holds much wonder and beauty that we should stop and enjoy. There is often grief and sadness we each must bear, but this incident is a tiny drop in a vast ocean that you should not give the time of day.
I truly hope this helps you in some way, feel free to contact me if you want to talk more. I have easily dealt with over a 100 cops, and as many lawyers. Most are good, a fair number are irritating, and a very tiny amount are truly crooked. I actually caused the last crooked cop I met to lose his certification, and he is now a hairdresser. He was not evil, just misguided. He did lie in court in a case I prosecuted. He did not lie to convict an innocent person, he just lied to puff himself up and feel important. As I could never trust his word again, and his boss would not remove him as he was a friend of the mayor, it became necessary to do a criminal investigation and remove him from office. He had a wife and children, it was not fun for anyone involved.
I wish you the best of luck. you will do fine, and you will overcome this, I promise.
- Visalia-Fresno, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 863 votes8y
Be glad the relationship blew up before you got married.
Keep the momentum.
Franklin - Rental Property Investor · Sacramento Area, CA · Member since 2017 · 45 posts · 64 votes8y
You sent the applicant the check back along with the required denial form. Leave it at that and move on. If the father continues to harass you, I would file an official complaint with his department's Internal Affairs department and also his watch commander / shift supervisor. Just move on and you will be fine. Welcome to the glamorous world of being a LL. This is the ugly side of the business, but with experience, you will not let things like this stop you from excelling and becoming successful. Please keep us posted.
- Rental Property Investor · Sacramento Area, CA · Member since 2017 · 45 posts · 64 votes8y
@Chris Moore: No cop hate here. I just do not like bullies, cop or no cop. They are trying to bully this LL. However, after doing this long enough, you start to know which professions have an "authority complex" and can be difficult to work with.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes8y
@Nina B. I would recommend you go into your BP profile and hide your last name from being shown. Also make sure that you disable Google from indexing your posts, which is also a profile option.
I have been through many hot headed encounters similar to yours and I assure you it will be fine. I can't stress how important it is to cease all contact. Nothing you can say will fix this, silence is the only solution. They will go away.
They have no case, so them hiring an attorney is a total waste of money. Threatening to hire an attorney is just a bully tactic.
Don't bother reporting this guy to the police department because they will do NOTHING. It will just further entangle you in this for no reason.
They will find another place for the kid and move on. If an attorney contacts you, say NOTHING and just give them your attorneys name.
- Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2015 · 27 posts · 14 votes8y
A valid contract is one that complies with the provisions of contract law and contains four essential elements
1. Contractual capacity of the parties (competent parties)
2. Offer and acceptance (mutual assent)
3. Legality of object (legal purpose)
4. Consideration
At least in Florida, the statute of frauds requires that contracts conveying an interest in real property and contracts that are not to be performed within one year of the date created must be in writing and signed to be enforceable. An enforceable contract is a legally binding contract that the courts will recognize. Contracts covered by Florida's statute of frauds include the following:
- Purchase and sale contracts
- Option contracts
- Deeds and mortgage instruments
- Lease agreements for a term longer than one year
- Listing agreements for a term longer than one year
Also in Florida, the statute of limitations designates the period of time during which the terms of a contract may be enforced. It protects people from being compelled to perform or otherwise be sued after a period of time has expired. The times vary, depending on whether it is an oral contract or a written contract:- Written contracts—five years
- Oral contracts—four years
- Partly written and partly oral—five years for the written portion and four years for the oral portion
An informal contract refers to an oral contract as opposed to a written contract or specialty instrument. An oral agreement is also called a parol contract. Therefore, informal or parol contracts are verbal agreements as opposed to written or formal contracts.Hope this helps!
- 8yNina B.Real Estate Investor · White Salmon, WA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 9 votesOP
Wonderful advice! Regarding my profile on BP and contract advice! I've altered my profile on BP to reflect my first name only and blocked anyone from seeing my profile other than colleagues. I've also disabled Google from indexing posts...phew! For right now I've also blocked my email address.
As of this morning I have heard nothing again from Parents or Son...so we'll see.
- 8yNina B.Real Estate Investor · White Salmon, WA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 9 votesOP
This is interesting. I just got off the phone with a large and respected rental management company in this area and spoke to the Principle Broker (was thinking after all this to just go with a management company).
She informed me that oral contracts are not binding in the State of Oregon for Real Estate, PERIOD!
Yahoo!
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Nina B.:
This is interesting. I just got off the phone with a large and respected rental management company in this area and spoke to the Principle Broker (was thinking after all this to just go with a management company).
She informed me that oral contracts are not binding in the State of Oregon for Real Estate, PERIOD!
Yahoo!
Be careful listening to people who are wrong.
Tell a guy "sure you can rent my apartment... it'll be $1000 per month" and then you accept the $1000 and he moves in. Guess what you've got? A verbal lease and a tenant.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - 8yNina B.Real Estate Investor · White Salmon, WA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 9 votesOP
I absolutely agree that in that scenario you are quite correct. In this case we have no Lease Agreement and no money exchanged or accepted (the only signature I have is the tenants on the Rental Application and on the Fee Disclosure Addendum) I signed nothing. Tenants Application Fee was also returned.
- Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2015 · 27 posts · 14 votes8y
FYI: Oregon statute of frauds (read (1)(e): https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/41.580
Oregon Landlord & Tenant laws: https://www.osbar.org/public/legalinfo/tenant.html
Understanding Oregon's statute of frauds: https://www.oregonrealtors.org/node/5424
You should consult an attorney who is familiar with these laws.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes8y
@Nina B. this isn't a question of whether oral contracts are binding. You stated there was NO oral agreement. It doesn't matter what he things he heard. Don't talk to anyone about this unless your attorney approves it. I fear you like to talk too much and will get yourself in trouble. I am saying this to help you.
- Real Estate Investor · Marysville, OH · Member since 2014 · 242 posts · 196 votes8yAgree. You need to stop talking and being “nice.” It’s hard to do for nice people. Also do yourself a favor and figure out your terms and stick to them. Use property management if you don’t think you can handle it. But make sure to get a firm that manages a large portfolio of rentals (100s+). I use pm and happy to pay the 10% to never have to deal with tenants anymore.
- Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2014 · 722 posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Nina B.:
A Father came to look at our rental for his newly graduated college son. I gave the Father a Rental Application as well as an Oregon Rental Application Addendum & Fee Disclosure. The Father dropped of both signed agreements (by his son) two days later with a $50 non-refundable processing fee. During the approval process the son called me and asked if I would make some term adjustments on the Fee Disclosure. I agreed to a pro-rate of 1st months rent and a reduced early lease termination fee. In my mind this oral agreement was only "upon approval." The son however (young) felt that our agreement on terms translated to his approval and said as much to his parents. The parents are livid and telling me I have an oral binding contract with there son and threatening to call an attorney! At no time did I ever tell the son he was approved and I still actually have his $50 un-cashed check. Now we so scared we want to take the unit off the market. A friend suggested mailing check back with no comment? I'm in the State of Oregon.
There is a categorical response to this question. You cannot by law convey an interest in real property, and the right to occupy an apartment is an interest in real property, without a signed writing - I.e., a lease.
This is property law 101. Just ignore the cop. If he’s dumb enough to sue you, let him try. The very first lawyer he talks to will tell him he has no case.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Jonathan Twombly:
Originally posted by @Nina B.:
A Father came to look at our rental for his newly graduated college son. I gave the Father a Rental Application as well as an Oregon Rental Application Addendum & Fee Disclosure. The Father dropped of both signed agreements (by his son) two days later with a $50 non-refundable processing fee. During the approval process the son called me and asked if I would make some term adjustments on the Fee Disclosure. I agreed to a pro-rate of 1st months rent and a reduced early lease termination fee. In my mind this oral agreement was only "upon approval." The son however (young) felt that our agreement on terms translated to his approval and said as much to his parents. The parents are livid and telling me I have an oral binding contract with there son and threatening to call an attorney! At no time did I ever tell the son he was approved and I still actually have his $50 un-cashed check. Now we so scared we want to take the unit off the market. A friend suggested mailing check back with no comment? I'm in the State of Oregon.
There is a categorical response to this question. You cannot by law convey an interest in real property, and the right to occupy an apartment is an interest in real property, without a signed writing - I.e., a lease.
This is property law 101. Just ignore the cop. If he’s dumb enough to sue you, let him try. The very first lawyer he talks to will tell him he has no case.
Is Property Law 102 where they discuss all the exceptions to the categorical rules they pronounce in Property 101?
If so the title to this thread would surely be a good discussion for 102.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2014 · 722 posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Jonathan Twombly:
Originally posted by @Nina B.:
A Father came to look at our rental for his newly graduated college son. I gave the Father a Rental Application as well as an Oregon Rental Application Addendum & Fee Disclosure. The Father dropped of both signed agreements (by his son) two days later with a $50 non-refundable processing fee. During the approval process the son called me and asked if I would make some term adjustments on the Fee Disclosure. I agreed to a pro-rate of 1st months rent and a reduced early lease termination fee. In my mind this oral agreement was only "upon approval." The son however (young) felt that our agreement on terms translated to his approval and said as much to his parents. The parents are livid and telling me I have an oral binding contract with there son and threatening to call an attorney! At no time did I ever tell the son he was approved and I still actually have his $50 un-cashed check. Now we so scared we want to take the unit off the market. A friend suggested mailing check back with no comment? I'm in the State of Oregon.
There is a categorical response to this question. You cannot by law convey an interest in real property, and the right to occupy an apartment is an interest in real property, without a signed writing - I.e., a lease.
This is property law 101. Just ignore the cop. If he’s dumb enough to sue you, let him try. The very first lawyer he talks to will tell him he has no case.
Is Property Law 102 where they discuss all the exceptions to the categorical rules they pronounce in Property 101?
If so the title to this thread would surely be a good discussion for 102.
The major exception would be part performance, basically if you let them move in and they started paying you the agreed rent. But even then they’d be deemed to have a month to month tenancy.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@Jonathan Twombly But you get my point, right? So far there have been two categorical denials that there can be a lease without a written agreement... followed by a "oh, well yeah that would also constitute a tenancy" meaning the general rules don't mean squat. It comes down to what was said and done and how the local law applies to that.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Jonathan Twombly:
There is a categorical response to this question. You cannot by law convey an interest in real property, and the right to occupy an apartment is an interest in real property, without a signed writing - I.e., a lease.
This is property law 101. Just ignore the cop. If he’s dumb enough to sue you, let him try. The very first lawyer he talks to will tell him he has no case.
Be careful in quoting absolutes as in many states including Texas verbal leases are enforceable
However, I 100% feel this scenario in way means that standard
- 8yNina B.Real Estate Investor · White Salmon, WA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 9 votesOP
Just a quick update to all. I had hoped as many of you had suggested that after declining the application that these folks would "go away."
Unfortunately that has not happened. After receiving the denial letter they texted me to let me know that they had friends in powerful places, lawyers, judges, attorney's, the DA etc. and that they would pursue charges of fraud and discrimination.
In the interim I did find out that in the State of Oregon a lease for a year or more must be in writing and signed by both parties, however, a month-to-month can be a verbal agreement.
I have not responded back to any communication and have retained an attorney.
Now I wait and see.
- Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes8y
"friends in powerful places"
This guy truly does deserve the arrogant a**hole of the month award. It has reached a level of ridiculousness. I would absolutely save that text, print it out and frame it. If he ever did take you to court now that text would hang him out to dry.
I am so thankful I am not a "nice" person and do not concern myself with these types of people. I have had many tenants over the years have their lawyers write me intimidating letters that I never respond to or ever give them a second thought.
- Accountant · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2017 · 409 posts · 362 votes8y@Nina B. I agree with Thomas, save that text and print it out, if they do take you to court then that is 100% intimidation, possibly abuse of authority if he's trying to "throw his weight around", I'm dealing with a similar situation, but so far mine has just stopped talking.
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