My Tenant is Out of her MIND!

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My Tenant is Out of her MIND!

Val J.
Rental Property Investor · DFW · Member since 2015 · 89 posts · 36 votes

I met with my tenant regarding how we would move forward this year in my property. She began her tenancy with at 10/2016. In 2017  at renewal time, I sent her a notice letting her know that she'd be on a month to month lease. The tenant has moved in her baby daddy and another person.  I met with her at a public location because I assumed , correctly, he is a very hostile individual. The meeting didn't go well. I recorded our conversation. My tenant told me that since she's on M2M she is not legally bound by a lease and can move in whomever she wants. .  She shows me information from the internet (which I already knew) regarding M2M leases. Which of course it stated that I had to give her 30 days. . Which is what I was doing today. Tenant also stated that I could not ask her to leave without having cause.  I explained to her that M2M leases are legally binding. And per her thinking if she can move anyone into the property so could I.  Baby daddy interjected, "So  "Baby, did  you sign anything stating you can't have your man live with you?" She had lots of stuff from the internet in a file folder. I asked her to show me proof that she can move anyone in and secondly, show me proof a landlord who has a tenant on an M2M has to show cause.  

I checked my account prior to meeting with her and she hasn't paid rent.

Baby daddy started getting hostile and I gathered my things.  He started cussing and yelling " she can't do ****!"  Let's stay there for 3 months. I get mail there. She can't put us out we can stay for 3 months!.

Okay fellow BPer's,  I know some of you have experienced this or worse. I'm thinking that I will call a landlord/tenant attorney Monday morning. Any recommendations?

Btw. prior to our meeting I had sent a notice to vacate via USPS and asked for a signature return receipt.   Help!

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Greg H.Pro Member
Moderator
Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
7y

If she is not current on her rent, send a 3 day notice to terminate via certified and regular mail and file eviction if she does not become current.  You can for a lease violation as well but an eviction for a lease violation is not a certainty even though she is incorrect in her interpetation

If she is current, send a 30 day notice to terminate the month to month agreement

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  • Michael Noto
    Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    @Val J. I think your instincts are correct. Have an attorney move forward with either an eviction (if they do not pay their rent for this month) or a 30 day notice to vacate (if they are current with their rent).

    You will want to hire an attorney to facilitate in this case for the following reasons in my opinion:

    1. The paperwork and timelines associated with evictions/notices can be tricky so let a lawyer with experience in this area handle it, this is what they do.

    2. When you are dealing with tenants who are not going to be reasonable or professional about things you will just be going around in a big circle talking to them. Waste of time. Let them communicate with the attorney.

    3. If you feel genuinely threatened it is definitely not worth putting yourself in harms way for anything in this business.

    0Reply
  • Val J.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · DFW · Member since 2015 · 89 posts · 36 votes
    7y

    @Nathan G

    The guy isn't my tenant. He isn't on the lease. Tenant has just allowed him to move in without my knowledge.  I'm getting an attorney asap.

    0Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    7y

    @Val J.

    "I fear that she will just let him back in. The info. I found in his background suggest so."

    That is where the no trespass notice come into play. If he sets foot on the property you call the police, they will arrest him, and based on his criminal back ground will likely go straight to prison. Once you issue the no trespass if he does not want to go back to prison he will disappear most likely along with your tenant. Problem solved quick easy and at zero cost to you.

    I would also advise that you issue a 24 hr notice to inspect and go with a camera and several large friends to inspect the property before you serve the no trespass notice. I would personally hand him the no trespass notice as I was completing the inspection but that's just me. I have served numerious trespass notices and enjoy seeing the reactions of this type of tenant.

    1Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Val J.:

    @James Wise

    I'm with you on on each step suggested specifically with cutting off communication. I did just that when I began to pack my things at the meeting while he ranted and spouted his limited knowledge of landlord/tenant guidelines. He tried to goad me as well in the parking lot with additional  blah, blah blah. Which I ignored them and drove off.  

     Great job. It never makes sense to argue with these types of people. I always try to stick to the facts & the facts alone. I avoid engaging in anything other than the facts. If you engage, the tenant will drag you into the weeds for a never ending amount of time blabbing about irrelevant nonsense.

     To be honest I think you should minimize your in person communication with all of your tenants like this in the future. I don't see a benefit to you for showing up to a potentially hostile situation in person. You do not owe these people anything so as the landlord you can & should dictate how all of the communication takes place. You can speak with them over the phone or via email & you can send them the lease agreement via dotloop or docusign for electronic signatures. Your safety is the most important factor in all of this.

    1Reply
  • Brian Ploszay
    Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    As a landlord, we have to be tolerant people.  

    Few things:

    1.   Rent.  If you did not get your rent, then head to eviction.  

    2.   In my City, evicting based on non-payment goes faster than evicting based upon an expired / month to month lease.  

    3.   Tenants add people unofficially all the time.  A boyfriend, a brother who needs to stay at a place for a couple of months.  I don't sweat this as long as the situation is not disruptive.

    Talk to a local attorney about the eviction procedure.  You'll probably have to give them a 5 day notice.  Maybe let the rent accrue up to two months behind, then they surely won't catch up within that 5 day period.  Then file the eviction.

    Last - stay non-emotional.  

    1Reply
  • Irina Belkofer
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2017 · 719 posts · 658 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Brian Ploszay:

    As a landlord, we have to be tolerant people.  

    Few things:

    1.   Rent.  If you did not get your rent, then head to eviction.  

    2.   In my City, evicting based on non-payment goes faster than evicting based upon an expired / month to month lease.  

    3.   Tenants add people unofficially all the time.  A boyfriend, a brother who needs to stay at a place for a couple of months.  I don't sweat this as long as the situation is not disruptive.

    Talk to a local attorney about the eviction procedure.  You'll probably have to give them a 5 day notice.  Maybe let the rent accrue up to two months behind, then they surely won't catch up within that 5 day period.  Then file the eviction.

    Last - stay non-emotional.  

     We don't have to tolerate disrespectful people, especially if these people don't pay rent on time.

    This is happening in Texas which is one of the most landlord friendly state, therefor, I wouldn't delay 3 day notice - just follow your attorney instruction.

    After I post 3-day notice on the door, take the picture, my lawyer files eviction on the 4th day. Hearing depends on how busy the court is, mine was in 2 weeks.

    Off course, you have to have all your ducks in the row: lease signed, 30 days non payment proof, whatever else your lawyer asks.

    In few days after the access to the property granted, the tenant might leave without any fighting (was my case) or the attorney will schedule the forceable entry. 

    Anyway, all together, it took about a month but my client (owner of the house) was delaying the eviction because people were playing him (they had a baby, promised to pay, was making small payments being 3 months behind).

    My point is, if you are going to handle it professionally, it will be over in few weeks, as someone mentioned 21 days in Texas.

    #3 I agree that Tenants always bring someone to the property without notice: most often it's the baby daddy or cousin etc. Usually I don't make a big deal and never though about filing the restraining order......too much drama

    If Tenant doesn't pay, ask them leave or you'll file eviction. They all prefer to leave and give your keys back. This is the cheapest way to deal with the problem: clean the house, re rent it and start all over.

    0Reply
  • John Clark
    Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    If the guy is a registered sex offender, go to the police ASAP and ask if he's registered for your address. If he isn't, you might be able to have him busted right quick. Certainly give your no trespass notice as well, but check if the police can't violate (arrest for parole/probation infraction) him immediately. Your tape will come in handy if he denies living there.

    If he IS arrested, attend the court hearings and ask the prosecutor if the court will enter a no trespass order on the guy as well, especially during the pendency of the proceedings. The worst that can happen is that the judge won't do it.

    2Reply
  • Val J.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · DFW · Member since 2015 · 89 posts · 36 votes
    7y

    @John Clark

    When I did my research and found his name, he had already placed my property address as his  on the RSO registry summer of last year. This individual was incarcerated and either paroled  and is not on paper or he was paroled and has a probation officer.  I plan to find this out as well. It appears that he and the tenant had this plan of him moving into the property after his release. All of this was unknown to me as the tenant  didn't tell me anything.

    0Reply
  • Steve K.
    Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    @Val J. I agree with everyone on the approach of just issuing the notice to quit based on non-payment of rent, and do not interact with these people or get involved in any more drama. Do not accept partial rent or negotiate. If you're unfamiliar with the eviction process in your state, it may be worth the money to hire an attorney. Luckily Texas is often referred to as the #1 most landlord friendly state, so you've got that going for you. It shouldn't be too hard to look up the eviction process and follow it to the letter. This case is very cut and dry in your favor as they are behind on rent. Focus on that and cut out all the James Bond stuff the meeting on the park bench, the internet sleuthing and secretly recording conversations. I believe recording people without their consent is illegal in most states, not sure about Texas, so you might not want to mention that to the authorities. You don't need to, they haven't paid rent to stick to that and don't let things get sideways. 

    I've come across this situation too many times: good tenant, single woman often mother of children, deadbeat baby daddy get's out of prison moves in and ruins everything. I wonder if we should add "Do you have an imprisoned ex who plans to move in when he get's out?" to the list of interview questions. That would probably violate anti discrimination laws though, I believe single women are a protected class. I've also had this happen with grown children who get out of prison and move in with their mothers, causing problems. It's pretty sad for the women. Often times they've been living a clean life and the presence of the ex-con causes them to fall off the wagon and just derails their life. Don't get too worked up emotionally. Stick to the unpaid rent issue and the eviction will be over before you know it. Try to be as civil and understanding as possible while following the eviction procedure perfectly in hopes they won't damage the place, that's all you can do. If you have to go to court, and they actually show up (unlikely as they don't have a case), the judge might ask you guys to see a mediator and come to a resolution before he makes a ruling. Again, keep it simple: "They haven't paid rent. I'd like to replace them with a responsible tenant that pays rent." That's it. The judge will tell them to get out immediately or a sheriff will come move them out for you. 

    2Reply
  • Val J.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · DFW · Member since 2015 · 89 posts · 36 votes
    7y

    @Steve K

    Thanks for the advice.  

    1Reply
  • Tim Bounds
    Rental Property Investor · CA · Member since 2017 · 2 posts · 2 votes
    7y

    A few thoughts. Many of these have already been mentioned, but I'll say them anyway:

    • I'm pretty sure Texas is one of the more landlord-friendly states in the country. That said, you still need to go through the proper procedures to remove the tenant. Don't skip any required steps or try to do anything outside the law; if you do, you'll regret it in a big way.
    • You should consider getting a property manager for your next tenant. Among other things, they screen tenants and also draft rental agreements which include clauses for things like additional tenants. Those little things can save you a lot of headache later on.
    • As much as I hate to say this, you should be prepared to do significant repairs and/or junk removal from the property once you get the tenant out. PITA tenants like this one often want to get back at the landlords who throw them out, and aren't above stealing appliances or other things from the property and doing damage to it. Yes, you could theoretically sue them for the costs, but actually extracting the money from them is easier said than done.
    • If you must talk to the tenant directly, keep it professional. Don't make threats that aren't legally valid, don't get into arguments where they try to split legal hairs, and above all don't let them bait you. When they start trying to argue with you, if they insult you, or even if they threaten you, do not response in kind. If they threaten illegal things against you, by all means get the police involved, but don't threaten them in response. As difficult as it may be, you have to stay rational about this and don't let your emotions make you say things that you'll later regret. You said you were recording them; it's also possible they were recording you. And anything you say might just get used against you later.

    I wish you the best in this; I hope you're able to get them out quickly and with minimal pain.

    1Reply
  • Ryan Mertens
    Developer · Holladay · Member since 2019 · 64 posts · 36 votes
    7y

    You didn’t state that you had any problems prior to the boyfriend showing back up. From what I’ve gathered it’s highly likely the situation is an abusive relationship and she being  controlled by this man. 

     People Like this and younger people sometimes can’t see past their own nose. Be sure to remind her in a polite way that although she is no longer welcome you thank her for her business and if they proceed with staying longer than what is warranted you’ll  file against her, win a judgment and it will be next to impossible for her to rent from another landlord down the road.

    She may be ignorant to the fact that this will be on her credit report and background chrck for years to come. Just send  her a polite reminder of that and maybe that will be enough after she has time to think about it to leave your property without incident

    1Reply
  • Val J.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · DFW · Member since 2015 · 89 posts · 36 votes
    7y

    @Tim Bounds. Good reminders. 

    @Ryan Martens - It's as if you've read my mind and  that you've also read all the things I discovered about their  past relationship too. The control is obvious.    I believe she's afraid and I've wondered how long the honey moon will  last before the storm begins.  

    As far as giving her reminders, my lips are sealed.  I'll only be speaking to a lawyer to try to resolve this quickly. 

    I'll pray for her and the kids.  I believe they're going to need it.

    0Reply
  • Val J.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · DFW · Member since 2015 · 89 posts · 36 votes
    7y

    @Tim Bounds  I think you're right about the damages. But I hope we're both wrong.

    0Reply
  • Brian Ploszay
    Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Irina Belkofer

    In my market, evictions are just the opposite as Texas.  I am in a tenant friendly state.  It takes at least 4 months to get them out, if everything goes right.  To get the sheriff to throw them out, it is six months.  

    Every once in awhile, I'll get a hostile tenant.  I have to weigh the aggravation of keeping them or throwing them out.  They are both painful.  But having a semi disrespectful tenant who pays rent... is something I'll live with.  I probably have only one right now.  

    0Reply
  • Mike Dymski
    Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y

    "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

    -George Bernard Shaw

    I'm with the group...normal unemotional eviction communication with the resident.  Real estate is supposed to make life better.

    2Reply
  • Brian Pfaehler
    Investor · Trafalgar, IN · Member since 2016 · 95 posts · 58 votes
    7y

    @Val Jaz Evict. Yesterday....

    0Reply
  • Bob B.
    Investor · Jasper GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Val J. is this your real name.  I just googled your name and this post showed up. If your tenant is pulling things off the internet, than this isn’t something you want her to find. Not the first time it has happened on this forum where a LL is having a problem with a tenant and the tenant chimes in on the discussion.   I hope it’s an alias.  I hope you get them out quickly. 

    0Reply
  • Steve K.
    Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    @Val Jaz just FYI you can change your name in your profile settings to just show your last initial as a lot of us have done, and I believe it will retroactively convert all your old posts including this one to the initial version, less likely to pop up on top of a google search that way, might not be a bad idea. Admin can help if you have trouble. Good luck!

    0Reply
  • Val J.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · DFW · Member since 2015 · 89 posts · 36 votes
    7y

    @Bob B. Not my real name

    @Steve K.

    Thanks for the tips. I made changes as suggested. I couldn't change my name but made a request  to admin.

    0Reply
  • Gretchen P.
    Rental Property Investor · Littleton, CO · Member since 2014 · 150 posts · 114 votes
    7y

    Make sure to add a clause in the future lease that states all adults over the age of 18 who are staying at the property more than 6 (or whatever number you choose) nights per month must pay to have a background check, and the background check must be satisfactory. 

    0Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    7y

    Brian Ploszay

    "In my market, evictions are just the opposite as Texas."

    Regrettably my market is very much like yours. As a result many of us are forced to adapted a management style designed to avoid going the route of evictions aside from non payment of rent. I do not tolerate difficult tenants and have developed systems to "persuade" them to leave on their own accord. Not anything I can elaborate on but suffice to say that our tenant loving socialist government has made it necessary to operate under the radar and not rely on the legal system to support our business. It is a pathetic situation making it very difficult at times to stay in business.

    0Reply
  • John Clark
    Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    "When I did my research and found his name, he had already placed my property address as his on the RSO registry summer of last year."

    -----------------------------------------

    Double check the law. Does your apartment qualify as a residence for registered sex offenders? Some states require that the offender not live within X number of feet of a school or park, for instance, and if you can show that the residence can qualify, the police can force him to move ASAP.

    0Reply
  • John Clark
    Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    "When I did my research and found his name, he had already placed my property address as his on the RSO registry summer of last year."

    -----------------------------------------

    Double check the law. Does your apartment qualify as a residence for registered sex offenders? Some states require that the offender not live within X number of feet of a school or park, for instance, and if you can show that the residence can qualify, the

    0Reply
  • Linda S.
    Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    @Val J.,

    The worst thing you can ever do as a property manager/owner-- is to let drama/BS get to you.     Tenants can think and lookup anything they want, that's great.. the internet has lots of resources, both good and bad.  I once had someone tell me that it was "illegal to say no pit bulls" in my ad.       

    Anytime someone starts talking a lot, or obviously researching stuff, screams red flags... you probably know the entire situation is a red flag and just wanted confirmation.. so yes, it's a red flag-- yes, you should just serve the notice of non-renewal.   M2M are beautiful because they are cut and dry.   After 30-days- they have no legal right to be there, it's over.  Cut the cord, this one is likely only getting worse.

    0Reply
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