Do lawn-care/snow removal myself or hire out?

OP

Real Estate Agent · West Hartford, CT · Member since 2016 · 449 posts · 476 votes

7y

@William W. to be honest I don't really follow. If I am a tenant, I would 100% want the grass cut... by the landlord or whoever, it doesn't really matter as long as it gets done.

OP

Real Estate Agent · West Hartford, CT · Member since 2016 · 449 posts · 476 votes

7y

@Thomas S. I see the points of the van. But I think an open truck bed would be more practical for lawn care, hauling, dump runs ect. But definitely something to consider.

William W.

Rental Property Investor · south Alabama · Member since 2018 · 121 posts · 88 votes

7y

@Michael Doherty

Of course they want their grass cut, but many tenants also value their privacy. For some tenants it could make them feel uneasy if they feel their landlord is using grass mowing as an excuse to check up on them (even if that’s not your intent).

Of course for multi family units this may not be true, but I only own SFH's.

David Cruice

Rental Property Investor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2018 · 179 posts · 192 votes

7y

@Michael Doherty , what's going to provide you with the best return on investment of your time: Cutting grass and shoveling snow or networking and lining up your next deal? A no-brainer really.

6 Reply

Joe SplitrockPro Member

Moderator

Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes

7y

@Michael Doherty the disadvantage of doing it yourself is that you cannot expense your time, with the exception being your girlfriends property. You can bill her for lawn and snow removal at fair market rate (and then you claim it as income).

I am not sure you will be able to claim much of a write off on the truck. With only owning two duplex, it will be difficult to justify the full expense to the IRS. That means you would claim mileage. You could expense the plow blade, lawn mower or snow blower if it was used exclusively. Still the big component here is time, which is lost.

Personally, I hire all low-value work. Low value work is anything that bills at low hourly rates like lawn, snow, junk hauling, cleaning, etc. If I do work at rentals, I stick to high value like plumbing, electrical or tile flooring. I know some people do the opposite, but it comes down to how you value your time. Are you a lawn mower or an investor? I mowed lawns when I was 10 years old, so for me this is an easy one.

6 Reply

Jim K.

Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes

7y

@Michael Doherty

Nope. The van with a trailer hitch and a utility trailer is much more practical than a pickup. @Thomas S. is dead right here, and a number of DIY landlords here have talked this out repeatedly. The van gives you locking capacity, storage and weather protection for your tools, and gas-sipping mileage. The utility trailer is lower to the ground and significantly outperforms the truck when it comes to lawn care, hauling, dump runs, and any sort of furniture/appliance hauling. You can also fit more helpers in the van.

I was forced to give up my 2001 Honda Odyssey for a 2015 RAV4 with 45,000 miles on it. The Odyssey outperformed the RAV4, especially in the neighborhoods I used it in. If I had to do it again I would probably go with Thomas's Caravan because it can take sheet goods in the back -- the Odyssey couldn't and the RAV4 can't. We mitigate this to a certain point by keeping a moving blanket, a tarp, and ratcheting load straps in with the spare tire compartment, but I'd like the capability to simply load those sheet goods into the back of a minivan instead of strapping them to a roof rack, especially in my rainy area.

5 Reply

Thomas S.

Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes

7y

@Jim K.

Nailed it.

I have used a van for 30 years and would not have anything else for my house flipping business. Additionally you could go for a hydraulic dump trailer. I am presently building a hydraulic dump trailer for myself and should have done that 30 years ago as well.

3 Reply

Matt P.

Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 625 posts · 601 votes

7y

@William W. Lol I don't care if they don't want me to show up. If something needs done I'm there. That line of thinking shouldn't come into play.

Matthew Paul

Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes

7y

Plowing can be very lucrative if you buy the equipment right . We charge $125 an hour plus salt . Thats $3000 for 24 hours plus another $1500 for salt per truck . Makes for a nice pay day

Anthony Pirkl

Duluth, MN · Member since 2018 · 5 posts · 3 votes

7y

@Michael Doherty just my personal opinion but I purchased a 1999 gmc Suburban for $1,500 two years ago and mainly use it for rentals. I took the back seat out and folded the middle row down and you can fit so much stuff in that thing. It’s nice because it’s always covered so you don’t have to worry about the elements and if you are working late on a rental you can get home and leave all of your tools and extra material in it and just lock it up.

Prior to buying this I was mainly looking at vans which was previously mentioned. If you look at all the contractors, plumbers, electricians, etc they all have the utility vans and I believe having everything covered and heated ( in the winter) goes a long way.

OP

Real Estate Agent · West Hartford, CT · Member since 2016 · 449 posts · 476 votes

7y

Appreciate all the insights. Sounds like if you do get a vehicle, get a van because it's safe from elements and theft, better on gas and will still accomplish most tasks. However, to your point @Joe Splitrock- time is money and you cannot expense your time. I suppose the question comes down to.... if I don't end up doing lawn and snow... is getting a van or truck even worth the purchase price, taxes, insurance, deferred maintenance ect. Something to be considered- I appreciate all the advice.

OP

Real Estate Agent · West Hartford, CT · Member since 2016 · 449 posts · 476 votes

7y

@Matthew Paul Did you originally by a plow to do your own driveways and then branched out? Or was that your full time business before investing?

Joe SplitrockPro Member

Moderator

Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Michael Doherty:

Appreciate all the insights. Sounds like if you do get a vehicle, get a van because it's safe from elements and theft, better on gas and will still accomplish most tasks. However, to your point @Joe Splitrock- time is money and you cannot expense your time. I suppose the question comes down to.... if I don't end up doing lawn and snow... is getting a van or truck even worth the purchase price, taxes, insurance, deferred maintenance ect. Something to be considered- I appreciate all the advice.

Sometimes not having the vehicle or tools to do something can be an advantage, because it forces you to work on the business rather than in the business. Is your time better spent hunting deals or mowing lawns. I have done both and came to the conclusion other people are better at mowing...

Matthew Paul

Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Michael Doherty:

@Matthew Paul Did you originally by a plow to do your own driveways and then branched out? Or was that your full time business before investing?

I started plowing when I was 20 , 37 years ago . I had a 4x4 and why not make money with it . I dont even plow my own driveway , I drive on it , if its snowing we are out plowing till its done . Plowing isnt a full time business , its icing on the cake . I am a contractor , investing is one of the things I have done with my money .

We dont do driveways unless someone pays the minimum of $125 . We plow with the storm , depending on the duration we may be on a parking lot 3 or 4 times . All by the hour . If we take out the 2 loaders , they are $195 an hour . A 2 ft snowstorm can generate a whole lot of money and clean up can take a week . It wears you out , but lines the pockets .

Podcast Guest on Show #355

Ryan MurdockPro Member

Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

7y

@Michael Doherty I plowed and mowed my own properties for years. I also picked up a bunch of other plow accounts as a "side hustle" since I was out there anyways. My guess is that since you have FTE you won't be picking up extra accounts.

I eventually gave up the plowing first and hung on to the mowing. Mowing forced me to check on my properties and kept me in better tune with them, plus I had flexibility on when I mowed. You don't have that luxury when it snows. You have to deal with it when it happens not "I'll just wait until the weekend" like mowing.

Plowing is really a burden when you want to go away for a weekend but can't because there's snow in the forecast or the snow is falling an inch and hour and your stuck at your day job for another 7 hours.

At this point I hire out everything and make much better use of my time.

3 Reply

OP

Real Estate Agent · West Hartford, CT · Member since 2016 · 449 posts · 476 votes

7y

@Ryan Murdock completely agree. What do you mean by FTE though, full time employment?

Podcast Guest on Show #355

Ryan MurdockPro Member

Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

7y

@Michael Doherty Yes, full time employment

Jim K.

Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes

7y

Originally posted by @Michael Doherty:

Appreciate all the insights. Sounds like if you do get a vehicle, get a van because it's safe from elements and theft, better on gas and will still accomplish most tasks. However, to your point @Joe Splitrock- time is money and you cannot expense your time. I suppose the question comes down to.... if I don't end up doing lawn and snow... is getting a van or truck even worth the purchase price, taxes, insurance, deferred maintenance ect. Something to be considered- I appreciate all the advice.

That's a very tough question, Michael. Clearly you're getting into 2-4 multiplexes, not SFR. If you're planning on being the sort of handyman landlord who self-manages all his limited number of properties, as we are, the van and the trailer make perfect sense (we don't do snow plowing, but snowblowing, high-volume shoveling, and heavy-duty lawn rehab is certainly in our toolkit and we have the equipment for it). To make those investments just for snow removal and to mow the lawn? Of course not. Stick with your job and hire all that out.

Really --and I know this isn't where you were going with this -- you have to figure out WHY you're doing this, as @Steve Vaughan gently keeps trying to point out in his posts. If your why doesn't include the fact that you actually like doing things yourself and see a lot of quality-of-life value in the work, just don't bother and work around it.

Steve Vaughan

Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes

7y

I enjoy mowing my apt building community yards. Mowing co's don't pull weeds, trim bushes or branches or look after other things while they're there anyway. I put my podcasts on and enjoy spending time outside.

Plus, my boys learn the value of a dollar and good work ethic. We'll usually do it together. Kids learn nothing about real life when m&d hire everything out. #livin in your basement

5 Reply

OP

Real Estate Agent · West Hartford, CT · Member since 2016 · 449 posts · 476 votes

7y

@Jim K. @Steve Vaughan you both hit the nail on the head right there. I do enjoy working outside and fixing things that I am capable of. My ideal job would be to manage and maintain these houses full time. My 'Why' is for financial freedom from the corporate world. Unfortunately I am only at 2 properties so I still have to work full time. With that said, I am at a roadblock because I like doing the work but wondering if it will become too much while working.

I also live somewhat close to the properties so it is hard to justify to spend X on work I can very easily do and don't mind doing. On the other hand, I don't want to live to work and have to think about cutting the lawn every weekend or waking up extra early to plow the driveway before my 8am corporate job....

I am leaning more towards hiring out the snow removal because it is variable in New England, I can write it off and not have to worry about it. And taking on the responsibility of the grass and yard work because it is at my leisure, and hopefully wont be too time consuming.

Bill F.

Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes

7y

@Michael Doherty

Having grown up in New England and worked for a contractor that plowed in high school and college, I'd advise against it.

Plowing creates an obligation that you must fulfill. If it snows from 12-8am on Tuesday, guess what, you are out there at 6am driving around cleaning up the properties for 1-2 hrs so the residents can get to work. Now how do you fit that in with work? Can you tell your boss 'going to be a few hours late, have to go plowing!'

Now it dumps another four inches from 1-3 pm. Are you going to leave work early to go plow?

Plus, 2-5 properties is just enough to be a pain, especially for all the reasons @Joe Splitrock and @Ryan Murdock mentioned. If you had 20+ driveways, a few HOAs, or a shopping center or two. Now that's some good money.

Also, have you ever plowed? It sucks

Mowing, that's borderline since you can do it on weekends/ your own time. Depends on what type of landlord you want to be...

Matthew Paul

Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes

7y

@Bill F. Plowing does suck , Yes it can tie you down , Up for 20 hours straight eating snickers bars and drinking coffee . But when you are self employed its no big deal . Even if I worked for someone , I would tell them when it snows , I am plowing . The money is too good to pass up . ( but it was easier on the body in my 30's vs my late 50's and one of my drivers is only good for about 5 hours , my father is 84 and cant wait for snow )

OP

Real Estate Agent · West Hartford, CT · Member since 2016 · 449 posts · 476 votes

7y

@Bill F. @Matthew Paul All good points. For those reasons, I will leave the snow plow to someone else and handle the lawn care for now until it becomes too much work.