What To Do When Landlords Refuse to Lower Their Asking Price

What To Do When Landlords Refuse to Lower Their Asking Price

Brad LarsenPro Member
Property Manager · San Antonio and Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 377 posts · 380 votes

Hello All - here is a good topic for discussion.  In our business as a property management company, we have decided to take a hard look at a new policy of what to do with Landlords who refuse to lower the rental asking price of their home.  

As a company, we showcase vacant and move in ready single family homes under professional management for individual landlords.  We provide every single channel for marketing we can come up with, we include videos, we include Matterport 3D tours (when appropriate), and we have in house professional photography (seriously - a full time person on the payroll doing nothing but pics / video).  

So, IMO - it's not US as we have done everything we possibly can to market the homes.  Again, this is a vacant and made ready home that could be occupied at a moment's notice.   

We also send our landlords a marketing & activity update every Monday that includes 7 ideas on what they can do to get their home rented faster (which were ALL presented from prior to listing) as a refresher course.  The first being - reduce the asking price! 

In our experience, every home will rent for the right price.  In rentals, it's ONLY price.  I feel we can rent a crack house next to a grave yard sitting on a railroad track for the right price.  

Our dilemma is working with owners who flat out REFUSE to lower their asking price even after being vacant 60+ days, seeing the feedback or lack of activity, listening to our portfolio managers when they communicate that the only option is a price adjustment.....but yet they refuse to lower the asking price.

OK - the PM haters out there will say this should be OUR decision......that once that PM Agreement is signed.......We "own" that home.  In reality, that does not work.  We are agents of the Landlord and have to work with them on getting their permission for major things such as price adjustments.  

TO THE POINT:  We are adopting a cancellation policy.  At 90 days vacant on the market - we are sending our landlord a 30 day notice of termination.  At 120 days vacant on the market - we are cancelling services.  (There are always exceptions of course)

We are now putting this in writing to the owners from day one.  We are unsure if this is a wise policy, but we also feel that if owners are unwilling to listen to us, or simply do not understand how much they are losing with a vacancy, we are simply not a good fit for them.....and they us.

We are about to fire two landlords this week that if I told you their situation, you would shake your head and fire them too!  Thoughts from the masses?   

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Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
7y

I would have a written example , showing numbers on a spread sheet . Numbers dont lie . Also explain to them how moving costs a tenant money , security deposits etc , and that after 1 year they raise the rent .   

Some landlords think , if I lower the rent on a $1200 a month house by $100 they are losing $1200 a year . But if that house is vacant for 3 months they have lost $3600 that year . And 3 months can turn to 4 ,5 or 6 

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  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    ==Every PM I know has it in their contract that they set the rental rate not the owner.==

    More reasons why self management is attractive to me.  I need that control and more importantly I need to approve of the tenants who move into my properties.  

    But I respect the property management business.  Your dilemma costs both you and the owner.  One feels discouraged when they have to show an overpriced unit.  It costs your team money if you have to excessively advertise and show without results.

  • Burnaby, BC · Member since 2017 · 283 posts · 268 votes
    7y

    I think even stubborn landlords would be understanding eventually (it may take a couple months) if you show them comparable rentals on the market and let them know the feedback from potential tenants that decline to apply was that it was too high a price point for what the property is.

    I don't know if firing them makes sense as I dont think its a lot of work for your company to screen the potential tenants before doing viewings. If the price isn't right - not many people will be asking to even view the place.

  • Real Estate Appraiser · Isabella lake, CA · Member since 2018 · 628 posts · 491 votes
    7y

    Bad clients get fired. Simple as that.

    You are a pita and not worth my time or effort. 

    Buh bye.

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Brad Larsen:

    Hello All - here is a good topic for discussion.  In our business as a property management company, we have decided to take a hard look at a new policy of what to do with Landlords who refuse to lower the rental asking price of their home.  

    As a company, we showcase vacant and move in ready single family homes under professional management for individual landlords.  We provide every single channel for marketing we can come up with, we include videos, we include Matterport 3D tours (when appropriate), and we have in house professional photography (seriously - a full time person on the payroll doing nothing but pics / video).  

    So, IMO - it's not US as we have done everything we possibly can to market the homes.  Again, this is a vacant and made ready home that could be occupied at a moment's notice.   

    We also send our landlords a marketing & activity update every Monday that includes 7 ideas on what they can do to get their home rented faster (which were ALL presented from prior to listing) as a refresher course.  The first being - reduce the asking price! 

    In our experience, every home will rent for the right price.  In rentals, it's ONLY price.  I feel we can rent a crack house next to a grave yard sitting on a railroad track for the right price.  

    Our dilemma is working with owners who flat out REFUSE to lower their asking price even after being vacant 60+ days, seeing the feedback or lack of activity, listening to our portfolio managers when they communicate that the only option is a price adjustment.....but yet they refuse to lower the asking price.

    OK - the PM haters out there will say this should be OUR decision......that once that PM Agreement is signed.......We "own" that home.  In reality, that does not work.  We are agents of the Landlord and have to work with them on getting their permission for major things such as price adjustments.  

    TO THE POINT:  We are adopting a cancellation policy.  At 90 days vacant on the market - we are sending our landlord a 30 day notice of termination.  At 120 days vacant on the market - we are cancelling services.  (There are always exceptions of course)

    We are now putting this in writing to the owners from day one.  We are unsure if this is a wise policy, but we also feel that if owners are unwilling to listen to us, or simply do not understand how much they are losing with a vacancy, we are simply not a good fit for them.....and they us.

    We are about to fire two landlords this week that if I told you their situation, you would shake your head and fire them too!  Thoughts from the masses?   

     Hi, Brad,

    Yes, both newbie and experienced investors - those who have no REI education and think their ego and their own experience are more valuable - will often do a faulty analysis of both their properties and their the rental markets.

    In your position, I'm sure you know that rental property values are determined by their ROI and ability to produce income. So, owners who have done the numbers wrong will stick to their expectations even in the face of growing losses due to holding a vacant property.

    Perhaps a way to deal with them might be based on information available from the public records showing their purchase price at acquisition from which you can work the rent numbers backward and possibly show where the numbers are out of line for the property's rental market.

    For what little it may be worth ...

  • Contractor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    Brad,

    Im interested to know is this an issue with a segment of investors. For example do you see this specific issue with mostly new investors.

  • Rental Property Investor · Leander, TX · Member since 2018 · 183 posts · 264 votes
    7y

    You sound like a very thoughtful and conscientious PM. If I ever buy an investment property in San Antonio I'll be giving you a call.

  • Brad LarsenPro Member
    OP
    Property Manager · San Antonio and Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 377 posts · 380 votes
    7y

    @John Douglas  Thanks for the questions John - you asked which segment of our investors are these.  As you can probably guess, they are new wannabe investors.....or reluctant landlords.  

    The new wannabe investors charge in, buy homes, and then have minimal if any funds to "afford" price reductions and repairs after the purchase.  We have one like that right now.  Often they are out of state investors with a "C" class landlord attitude.  In this article, I try to define what that means. 

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/52/topics/402...

    The reluctant landlords are sometimes thrust into a bad situation.  A job change is the most common, sometimes military. (San Antonio is military city, USA).  The landlords after buying a home in the last few years are faced with now becoming an investor....but not ready just yet.  They are often living paycheck to paycheck with near zero understanding of how numbers work in the cash flow side of rental property.  

    This concept may be groundbreaking - but I also think that people don't respect mortgages any longer.  If someone buys a home and it gets to be too much, they just walk away from it.  They can still buy a car, they still have their credit cards, they can still rent a home / apartment (or move in with someone else) - so the binding effect of committing to a mortgage just is not there any longer.  

    Where I am going with that is they move away from a home and it becomes a burden to them.  This is a big reason for our most recent churn in the market.  We add one a day and it seems like we lose one a day under management.  The strong majority of losses are due to sales.  People see the uptick hovering right now and sales are hot.  It ties into the paragraph above with people not worried about selling if they had to - but more over how much hassle will it be.  

    In regards to working with the landlords on educating them on the numbers - we do our absolute best in writing and in person up front and throughout the leasing process.  I would say far more than any other PM Company in our market with constant education.  But, as one reply mentioned above, you have the 80/20 rule.  20% of the folks may just not be a good fit.   Thanks all for the comments! 

  • All Over, USA · Member since 2017 · 689 posts · 756 votes
    7y

    @Jay Hinrichs

    Learned this after my first vacancy turnover!

    Lost 2 months in rent cause I held my ground on price point not doing the math and assuming my ask was market price. Had I listened I would have dropped rent rate and only lost half the amount.

    New person moves in, at $100 less/month, and bails 6 months early, leaves large security deposit voluntarily.

    Increase rents back up by $100 (this time at PM recommendation) and lease is signed with just 4 days vacancy.

    Moral of story: Once you vet and hire your PM, trust the PMs to do what they do best.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Aaron Hunt:

    @Jay Hinrichs

    Learned this after my first vacancy turnover!

    Lost 2 months in rent cause I held my ground on price point not doing the math and assuming my ask was market price. Had I listened I would have dropped rent rate and only lost half the amount.

    New person moves in, at $100 less/month, and bails 6 months early, leaves large security deposit voluntarily.

    Increase rents back up by $100 (this time at PM recommendation) and lease is signed with just 4 days vacancy.

    Moral of story: Once you vet and hire your PM, trust the PMs to do what they do best.

    its really no different than on the brokerage side. I am still an active broker but don't do any retail I just use the license for my own stuff

    However my wife is a top producer.. and when a client wants to over price a listing.. She will take it but will also say no interest or offers in 2 weeks we have to lower price.. and if they wont she drops the listing.. listings cost money if they are unsalable at a price point no reason to have them.. 

  • Investor · United States · Member since 2015 · 415 posts · 487 votes
    7y

    It sounds like you've made every reasonable effort to inform the owner of the state of the market. It is entirely reasonable of you to part ways with these clients. Both of you are losing money every month.

    If the owner hasn't responded to your feedback yet, maybe sending that notice or breaking ties will be enough to finally get their attention. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Renton, WA · Member since 2017 · 204 posts · 151 votes
    7y

    @Brad Larsen looks like you understand your market and from what I can gather, sometimes you have to cut them loose so you can focus your energy on finding more clients that value your expertise.

  • Attorney, CPA, Broker & Author · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2018 · 532 posts · 488 votes
    7y

    @Brad Larsen Assuming your contract gives you the appropriate cancellation rights, then I recommend you do as you see fit. I learned many, many, many years ago that the clients you get rid of (or never take on in the first place), can sometimes be more important than the ones you keep.

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 1 vote
    7y

    Lots of interesting chatter on this one, seems as though we have all thought through this one way or another.  I self-manage, but have been looking to move to a PM.  One my challenges to go the PM route has been that I am always amazed how PM properties sit on the market longer, have poor response times when I call for viewing and pricing and are unwilling to move on rents to fill them.  As a self-manage property investor I have always looked at this as a competitive advantage, I am much more responsive and can make concessions on the spot without having long-periods of time pass while waiting for responses.  I recently went through the entire rental application process myself with one property just to see how a particular PM handled the situation.  I asked for a 5% rent reduction for immediate move-in on a place that been vacate for over 3 months.  I received a flat "no", not a counter or anything, just "no"!  The reduction request equated to 2.5 weeks of annual rent reduction and it was December!!  It took them three weeks just to get back to me to look at it.  As a pure numbers business, that was a horrible decision in my mind and it reinforced my opinion that either the PM or owner were not on the same page or they did not "get it" as others have stated here.  I would never use that PM and if I go the PM route, I will definitely go to great lengths to unsure that my flexibility is carried over to the PM.  Communication of expectations needs to be spot on. 

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    I'll throw in on my latest rehab. Top of market, which the quality of my property ought to command is $850. I made it available Jan 1, the middle of winter when nobody here likes to move. Opened with $850 and crickets. 3 months earlier, before I was ready to rent, I had 3 great people ready to sign at $850. We're talking the children of the long-term and awesome neighbors, people who would look out for each other - I love that stuff.

    Well, I ended up taking $750 for both units. I might have had to wait until spring to get my $850. Yup, I would have got it, 4-5 months later, while the holding and vacancy added up. What I did get out of it, are two really good tenants who will likely stay long term and definitely will not tear up my property.

    So, the timing of it all got me a bit. I say, so what?

    I've found a slightly lower than top of market rent (I call it fair market) is going to open up options for the best tenants. Unless my numbers or desires keep me from doing otherwise, I have done this with every property so far. I've found it pays pretty good in the longer view in terms of repairs, hassle and vacancy. Does it absolutely maximize my profit? Well, no. Is that a cardinal sin? Well, not to me. I like the balance of a good cash flow and great tenant. Easy is worth something to me.

    LOL. I inherited tenants in the other property I bought last year and lowered their rent. I got that one from an out of town owner, using a PM, that just couldn't seem to make it work (he bought it for $30k too). These unfortunate tenants had to go through crap like going without heat for a month in January, and having a water leak going unrepaired for months, with a make-shift sump pump in the basement keeping the flood at bay (the story was the PM died, but judging by the quality of the "repairs", they had more issues than that). I took a good look at the tenants who had been there long-term, how well they were keeping their units up despite all the rest, and thought the best thing I could do is keep them there and do what I could to make them happy. So, instead of evicting them to do a rehab, I lowered their rent a bit, consider it my band-aid house I will be working on forever, and they love me and all is well. Respect baby. It goes a long way and has tangible rewards for everyone.

    Anywhos...maybe my story, and stories like mine, could help you convey the right message to your stubborn landlords.

  • Rental Property Investor · Dyersburg, TN · Member since 2019 · 45 posts · 31 votes
    7y

    @Brad Larsen we have a minimum acceptable rent listed in our PM agreement. I just had a situation yesterday, took on 2 D class properties in Jan and the Owner had been getting $25-50 above avg rent on both and would not accept less although did agree to reduce deposits and move in fees after 30 days. Still couldn’t rent the darn things. I finally had to call and have a conversation with him that ended in mutual agreement that he take them back over. You don’t want properties you can’t rent or owners that aren’t reasonable. Both are time consuming and not profitable.

  • Rental Property Investor · Fort Morgan, CO · Member since 2018 · 14 posts · 8 votes
    7y

    @Brad Larsen, from the perspective of a person who utilizes a PM to manage my small portfolio, I would never accept what some people are suggesting.

    First, I know my numbers on my properties. If you can’t get it rented at the price I need, tell me upfront and I can adjust or we can part company. Don’t be so eager to sign me up, that you forget market values, of which you should be the expert.

    Second, I would NEVER work with a PM who tells me they set the price, not I. That would be a poor decision on my part and I would question the judgment of any owner who accepts that.

    Honestly, in your situation, I assume your contract has an end date, right? You have already spent the time and effort to market it. At the end of the agreement, have a friendly but frank conversation about price and, if they don’t agree, you don’t renew, and you can part ways with hope for future business once they come to their senses.

    Should you choose to speak to an owner in the way others have suggested, know from the beginning, you will loose that person forever.

  • Rental Property Investor · Fort Morgan, CO · Member since 2018 · 14 posts · 8 votes
    7y

    @Derek I could absolutely agree to a minimum acceptable rent clause, I think that’s a great idea and a diplomatic way to approach the subject!

  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Brad Larsen, while I as a landlord would not agree to a clause that says the manager gets to set the rates, I think you are a fool if you are not local to not listen to your PM>  No I have reasons on some of my rentals where I will not lower the rate to get a tenant.  I have a 4 plex that almost never had a vacancy sit empty fr a little over 3 months recently.  Yes I could have lowered the rent and rented it quickly, but I didn't want to risk having long term tenants hear the new guy got rent at $50 or $100 per month less than them.

    As to "firing" your owner, about 5 or 10 years into private practice I was running a solo firm.  I went to a time management class to help manage time and deadlines to hopefully reduce stress for me and my staff.  That is where I first heard about Parettos(?) Law.  80% of your headaches are likely caused by 20% of your clients.  Upon returning from the seminar and thinking about it I fired my 5 most troublesome clients.  The quality of my time at the office jumped about 50%.  If they are a small part of your business and they cause you 80% of your headaches, fire them.

  • Brad LarsenPro Member
    OP
    Property Manager · San Antonio and Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 377 posts · 380 votes
    7y

    @Derek Guivehchi  @Blake Berry  @Jerry W.    All great points.  

    RENTAL RATE:  In our Property Management agreements (which we custom wrote, had attorney and TREC approved) we built in a field where we ask for their initial list rate, and then put in their minimum acceptable rent rate.  We highly advise them up front on what to rent for with typically 2 to 3 separate looks at the comps.  We first have an automatic rental rate widget through RentRange.  Next we do our own comps from the business development team.  And lastly, the Portfolio Manager (a licensed Realtor) takes a look and applies their commons sense to the rental rate.  This is not even touching on all of the marketing we do. We do our absolute best to advise all along the way.  We all want the same thing! 

    PARTING WAYS:  The majority of comments above touch on or elude to the 80/20 theory with clients.  There is a small minority that will just not be a good fit.  It would appear my logic is on with letting some owners go - and one comment hit the nail on the head.  This is meant to be a wake up call to the owner to convince them we really have thought this thru and rented a few homes before.  We will continue to adopt this policy and apply it on a case by case basis.   

    @Jerry W.  In your fourplex example, that clearly would not have been a situation where we look to cut ties in that scenario.  You had a legitimate business reason.  But I guarantee that if I expanded on several of our examples I am referencing to possibly end services with a landlord / owner, you would be shaking your head as we are and be sending out termination notices too!  You are dead on with the 80/20.   

    Thanks all for the feedback! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes
    7y

     This is one reason you see many developers of big apartment projects giving free months and leasing goodies out, if they drop the actual rent the bank will see they're not hitting their rent roll projection numbers.  

    I personally will drop rent within a couple of weeks if it's clearly not getting action. The market is always right, regardless of how much you want it to be wrong.  But some folks like their aspirational rents. Around here commercial storefronts can be empty for years after they price out the old business that was there for generations. Makes no sense!

  • Real Estate Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2010 · 298 posts · 103 votes
    7y

    I've always thought it's smarter to reduce the rent $50-100 per month to get it filled rather than hold out for someone willing to pay the "correct rent."  Tenants are probably more savvy than owners and managers about market rentssince they are reviewing and comparing places they may wish to live. When they see a property they feel is overpriced, they won't even bother.  Sounds like your owners are in fantasyland about the "proper" rent. If they can't figure out that it's the long term rental income that's important, just ditch them as clients. Much better to cut the rent initially. You can always raise it after 6-12 months after the tenant has had  a chance to get settled,a nd hopefully will enjoy living there enough that he will accept the increase.

  • Real Estate Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2010 · 298 posts · 103 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Bob May:

    Lots of interesting chatter on this one, seems as though we have all thought through this one way or another.  I self-manage, but have been looking to move to a PM.  One my challenges to go the PM route has been that I am always amazed how PM properties sit on the market longer, have poor response times when I call for viewing and pricing and are unwilling to move on rents to fill them.  As a self-manage property investor I have always looked at this as a competitive advantage, I am much more responsive and can make concessions on the spot without having long-periods of time pass while waiting for responses.  I recently went through the entire rental application process myself with one property just to see how a particular PM handled the situation.  I asked for a 5% rent reduction for immediate move-in on a place that been vacate for over 3 months.  I received a flat "no", not a counter or anything, just "no"!  The reduction request equated to 2.5 weeks of annual rent reduction and it was December!!  It took them three weeks just to get back to me to look at it.  As a pure numbers business, that was a horrible decision in my mind and it reinforced my opinion that either the PM or owner were not on the same page or they did not "get it" as others have stated here.  I would never use that PM and if I go the PM route, I will definitely go to great lengths to unsure that my flexibility is carried over to the PM.  Communication of expectations needs to be spot on. 

    Unfortunately, Bob, many property managers are just idiots. It's not their money they are losing with a vacancy, so they don't have much incentive like an owner would

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Johann Jells:

     This is one reason you see many developers of big apartment projects giving free months and leasing goodies out, if they drop the actual rent the bank will see they're not hitting their rent roll projection numbers.  

    I personally will drop rent within a couple of weeks if it's clearly not getting action. The market is always right, regardless of how much you want it to be wrong.  But some folks like their aspirational rents. Around here commercial storefronts can be empty for years after they price out the old business that was there for generations. Makes no sense!

    No one wants markets to be wrong. The simple truth - as you pointed out - is that lowering the rent - by definition - devalues the property. Every valuation formula for rental property determines value by the income produced. Reduce that income by methods other than vacancy and you devalue the property.

  • Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @David Dachtera:

    Actually, that needs to be qualified to "every valuation formula for rental property over 5 units". Non-commercial is in a weird space, where appraisers use all 3 methods, comp, rents, replacement, and then pull a number out of their butts. Can you tell I have a low opinion of appraisers?  Since I'm a buy and hold, I don't care what my property appraises for and can set my rents to keep my units filled. I rent mostly to young people starting out who don't stay forever, and as often as not I can turn over a unit without losing a month. So I would never lose a $1600 month voluntarily just to get $1700 eventually.

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