Investor · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2017 · 26 posts · 13 votes
I have a 16 unit apartment that got destroyed by hurricane Michael 9 months ago. We are getting rebuilt but have run into a problem with the second story floors. I want to go back over the plywood with vinyl plank flooring but there seems to be some damage on the plywood, some dips and some ripped areas. I can't use any kind of a kwikset over it because it's a floating bouncing floor. Does anyone have any experience or recommendations on laying a thin insulation over the floor and then vinyl plank on top? We are over budget and three months over our timeline on repairs, and I Durance has been fighti g me the hole way... Trying to get this done as fast as possible to bring in income. Any advice is appreciated
Flipper/Rehabber · Spanish Fort, Ala · Member since 2019 · 97 posts · 88 votes
7y
This is the correct way. You want to put down 1/4-inch BC plywood as an underlayment. 1/4-inch BC plywood makes a good underlayment.
Allow 1/4-inch gap along the walls and between the joints for expansion. Secure the plywood to the subfloor at 6-inch intervals with 1-inch deck screws placed along the edges. Set all screw heads slightly below the surface.
Apply floor patching compound to the joints and over the screw heads. Smooth it in place and allow it to dry. Sand any rough edges with medium-grit sandpaper.
Clean the floor with a wet-dry vacuum to remove any dust or debris that remains. This will give you a nice smooth floor. If you dont do this your vinyl will show the floor defects in time.
This is a second floor, plywood on joists, that used to be tiled. During restoration tear-out they damaged some areas of the floor and then it took 3 months to get the first release of cash out of insurance so the roof was just tarped and was leaking all over the floor. The end result is some de-laminated areas and gouged areas.
My contractor is suggesting that we cover the full floor with 1/3" ply but I just don't have the cash for that, nor the extra time needed. I have 16 units not rented since October 2018...
How many units are completed so far and ready for new renters? If it was my project, I would try to focus on getting people into a few finished units ASAP just to cut down the bleeding of 16 empty units.
The 1/3" plywood is probably a good suggestion and is probably the correct way to solve the problem.
Fixall and a belt sander will probably also do the trick to solve the problem for a little cheaper but a bit more labor.
Alternatively, some carpet with thick pad for now could also be a reasonable solution.
Fixall is a filler that's pretty commonly used but I'm not sure about flexible. You might want to do a bit more research on alternative fillers. I'm sure there are ones that will flex a bit and hold up a bit better.
The only reason I mention carpet is that it might allow you to get something cheap in there for now and then later down the road when your cash reserves are built up and you are ready to turn units, you could redo them the right way with the 1/3" ply.
Investor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
7y
Hard to be sure based solely on pictures but those gouges look pretty superficial..... if the floor is level and even between joints etc, at best I would fill those "pot holes" with some wood putty or other filler and call it a day. All you want/need is some support under the plank so you don't have a void that would cause some focal stress on one part of the plank because there is nothing under that spot. The most important aspect is that the floor is reasonably level and flat....no ridges or big bumps.
With some vinyl planks, they specifically state NO UNDERLAYMENT..... other its ok....
Based on your pix, this should be pretty easy to fix without placing plywood across the entire floor.....
Flipper/Rehabber · Spanish Fort, Ala · Member since 2019 · 97 posts · 88 votes
7y
This is the correct way. You want to put down 1/4-inch BC plywood as an underlayment. 1/4-inch BC plywood makes a good underlayment.
Allow 1/4-inch gap along the walls and between the joints for expansion. Secure the plywood to the subfloor at 6-inch intervals with 1-inch deck screws placed along the edges. Set all screw heads slightly below the surface.
Apply floor patching compound to the joints and over the screw heads. Smooth it in place and allow it to dry. Sand any rough edges with medium-grit sandpaper.
Clean the floor with a wet-dry vacuum to remove any dust or debris that remains. This will give you a nice smooth floor. If you dont do this your vinyl will show the floor defects in time.
Surveyor · Dothan, AL · Member since 2014 · 425 posts · 391 votes
7y
I have heard of filling or covering the pits with pieces of roofing shingles as well as fine sand. I had a floor that I was going to try the shingles with. Fortunately I found a floor guy that was able to work magic. Before I found him, I spent weeks trying to convince myself it would work. Not sure if I ever did. Leta us know what you do. Where is your property? Most people do not realize we are still feeling the effects of that SOB. Good luck.
Guys, thanks so much for your input! I really appreciate you all taking the time to help me out with the suggestions.
@Geordy Rostad, I see your point with the carpet until unit turns. Thats a valid idea for sure.
@Ned J. I've been researching a flexible filler to do the filling. Most likely I will go in and fill the holes, peal off de-laminated areas and fill them too, with an acrylic base wood filler. Then go back and belt sand high areas. Possibly a little more labor intensive but the labor is cheaper then the material and could be done relatively quickly.
@Greg Morris Thanks so much for the detailed explanation. If I had the finances and time this is definitely the way I would go. Unfortunately I'd be looking at an additional $15k plus labor to get it done this way and Im under the squeeze right now with my budget.
@Clint Shelley The property is in Panama City Fl. I closed on the 16 unit in July of 2018. Did $100k of renovations and finished that in September 2018. Hurricane hit Oct 10th, 2018. Bummer!
Also, I used to be a contractor myself and had a good friend that ran a flooring business. He let me in on a laminate and hardwood floor install secret for when the owner is in a pinch. You can fill low areas with fine sand, flatten it out with a level, and then cover it with felt construction paper. I redid the flooring in my office space myself and used this technique on some large areas. Over a year later and its working perfectly. Just a little FYI
Once again, thanks everyone for your input. I will update you and let you know what I end up doing and how it works out.
Flipper/Rehabber · Long Island, NY · Member since 2019 · 2 posts · 3 votes
7y
As stated previously certain rigid vinyl plank flooring specifies no underlayment. There are many that don’t or that recommend it as it helps the flooring float. Using an underlayment underneath the flooring will also keep the tenants in the floor below happy as it quiets footstep noise. Underlayment will fill the small voids but you will have to do something about the raised delaminated layers or plywood. Small screws can pull those back down.
On a side note I will be in Co Springs this weekend for the Pikes Peak Race and may be taking a look at the area for prospects if you have a good realtor you would recommend please PM me.
Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2015 · 23 posts · 9 votes
7y
My units have crappy particle board subfloors that dip in high traffic areas and have a few dings. IMO you can put vinyl plank over a less than perfect subfloor as long as the plank is high quality and relatively thick. In a situation like yours (and mine) something relatively thin and flexible like Allure won't work. The imperfections will telegraph through. I ended up using CoreTec vinyl plank. Not the cheapest, but it went over my imperfect subfloor without issue and looks fabulous!
Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2017 · 21 posts · 10 votes
7y
Feel free to correct me but can't you just put the vinyl hard plank on and let it float with some padding for the dips and then just take it up and repair the flooring correctly once you've got more cash freed up?
Folsom, CA · Member since 2018 · 134 posts · 100 votes
7y
@Stephen Kleyn Hey Stephen sorry to hear about all the troubles. We recently bought a duplex in an A class part of CA that we’ve renovated and are now house hacking. I mention this to make the point that we didn’t take short cuts and do things cheaply with our renovation. That being said we installed vinyl plank flooring over the existing tile in some areas. I was worried that you would be able to feel the tile under your feet but that is not the case. We used vinyl plank flooring that came with a foam underlayment. I think this helps to minimize variations in the flooring and as others mentioned helps keep things quite. Judging by the pics it looks like you might be able to do this. Another plus is the vinyl plank is fully waterproof as I’m sure you know. Good luck!
Rental Property Investor · New York City · Member since 2019 · 703 posts · 538 votes
7y
From the photos, the subfloor doesn't look that bad. IMO: Make sure the subfloor is fastened tight with no bounce. Use a straight edge or long level around the entire room to check the uneven floor areas. Mark the uneven area. You may be able to apply self leveling grout and only use in areas with excessive dips and holes. The underlayment foam of the floating floor has some tolerance to uneveness.
Contractor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2016 · 267 posts · 144 votes
7y
@Stephen Kleyn ok first i had been an installer in Indianapolis for my company for 5 years and had a solid 5 star rating on all my platforms before I took a job selling for someone else a little while back.
PLEASE do not do anything silly like fill it with sand and cover it with paper. I know it sounds like an easy way out but it’s foolish. The sand will crunch when you walk on it and eventually erode.
The problem looks superficial,
1. How many spaces look like this? Is it everywhere on the second floor? Is it just in those spaces?
2. If you pm me a better pic I could give you a better opinion. I don’t think it’s a dramatic problem at all.
@Stephen Kleyn I ran into this with a live n flip I did. If you install it over the plywood without filling those low spots eventually the floor will contour to the shape of the floor and show those low spots. There is a floor leveler you can buy at home depot or lowes (or any flooring store for that matter) that you can mix and apply to the heavily damaged areas or low spots. However, I believe you can only fill up to 1" deep.
Rental Property Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2019 · 115 posts · 72 votes
7y
@Stephen Kleyn
I suggest following your contractor's suggestion. Even a good quality floating vinyl will feel like cheep vinyl over an imperfect subfloor. A flat surface helps it feel firm and high quality, more like real hardwood under your feet. I tried the cheap route (sanding, planing, feathering concrete) and it still bothers me, I wish I would have replaced or covered. You don't want to install thousands of dollars of flooring over something, plus all your other nice renovations, and then be stuck with cheap feeling floppy floating vinyl. Your vinyl tongue and groove gets distorted when you hammer it in place, so once it's in, it's in for the most part.
Moseley, VA · Member since 2016 · 115 posts · 60 votes
7y
@Stephen Kleyn
I would use a feather concrete patch or self leveling to fill the gap and make it smooth. Think of it as a filler they work very well and if you level it off you will not even notice the subfloor. Good luck.
Investor · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2017 · 26 posts · 13 votes
7y
Wow, so many suggestions! Thanks so much everyone!
All are good points. From the photos my contractor sent me it seems like a small issue, but from talking to him he seems to think its a bit issue. Either he's trying to upsell me or there is more going on then the photos are showing.
I may need to fly down there and check it out myself. First, I'm going to see if we can do a video chat and have him show me the issues closer and then I will make my decision from there.
Side notes on comments, a few people brought up the self leveler and fillers etc. The only problem with using regular self leveler or any concrete product is that the floor is suspended on floor joists and will have a small amount of bounce and give. After a while that concrete will break up under the vinyl plank. I have heard of flooring guys mixing in Alex Plus with the water mix to give it elasticity which is an option. I was thinking of using an acrylic based wood filler (advise from a contractor friend of mine) so that its flexible and sandable.
@Joshua Howaniec Believe it or not, the sand under felt does work. I did some free work for a missionary base that was installing laminate flooring in an office that had the most atrocious sub floors you've ever seen. They didn't have the finances to go the self leveler route as it would have needed about 40 bags. I let them know about the sand option and they wanted to go for it. I layed the laminate (not vinyl plank), it felt solid at the time. 1 and a half years later went back to visit and its still as solid as a rock. I'm not a big fan of hacking, I'm just saying that if your in a pinch, this one works. I wouldn't do it for vinyl plank though, its too flexible.
@Brian Pfaehler What is the drum sander you're talking about? The only drum sander I know of is usually fixed in a woodwork shop and is upright. Could you send me the name of a product or a pic please. I'd be interested in trying this out if I go the acrylic wood filler route.
Once again, thanks so much for taking the time to lend me your experience! I hope you guys all profit well in the coming years and that you can avoid hurricanes like I had to go through!
On that note, If you don't mind me giving some advice from my latest experience, I recommend that all of you go back to your insurer and ask them to do a Marshal Swift analysis on your property to see if you are adequately insured. It takes them some time but only costs them $18. This is the same program that underwriters use to screw you over, so if you have the analysis in your files then they are bound to fully insure your property if needed.
Realtor · Moorestown, NJ · Member since 2019 · 86 posts · 24 votes
7y
@Stephen Kleyn
Try 1/4 Lauan plywood. We always used that to level or hide imperfections in the floor when I installed laminate. Easy to work with just score it a few times and your good to go.
Investor · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2017 · 26 posts · 13 votes
7y
@Account Closed thanks for the suggestion. I will use Lauan if my trial run on the first unit doesn't work out using acrylic wood filler in the de-lam sections.