Specialist · New York City, NY · Member since 2019 · 34 posts · 111 votes
Would like to hear from others on this one.
Often, when I tell someone about an apartment building located in a class C neighborhood in NYC, the first question they ask is whether I carry a gun when visiting the property. The building isn't the safest and I have had gangs/drug dealers make threats in the past but I don't carry a gun or any other type of weapon when visiting the property.
Not just because it's extremely difficult to obtain a permit in NYC but more so because I believe carrying a gun would make me come off as more threatening which in turn can cause others to be more aggressive as well. In addition, don't think someone who isn't highly trained (situational and response training) will necessarily use a gun properly if it actually came down to it.
Some people insist that carrying a gun will cause trouble makers to have more respect.
For those actively managing C-F class properties, do you carry any sort of weapon when visiting a given property?
1) Do not carry a gun if you can't do it legally. Places like NYC will prosecute YOU if you use that gun, even if justified in using it.
2). Do not carry a gun if you are not fully trained and plan on continuing that training. It isn't something you take a weekend course and then think you are done. It is ongoing and regular training as it is a perishable skill.
Also, if you are carrying, people don't "respect" you because of that. If you are doing it properly, they won't know you have a firearm. I can't speak to NYC laws, but in CA, open cary is not legal, so there ins't that element of them avoiding conflict because you are armed. "Brandishing" or flashing your firearm, even if legally concealed is a crime in most states... So, put it out of your mind that having a firearm will make people avoid conflict with you. In most circumstances, it creates problems.
That being said, carrying a firearm isn't for most people because of local laws, but more commonly because their lack of dedication to training.
I would suggest pepper spray or a taser.
Pepper spray for civilians is available at the same levels that the police cary.
Tasers for civilians use the same technology. The exception is the Tasers for civilians activate for 30 seconds and are designed to deploy, drop the taser and run away. At 800-1000, it is expensive.
From someone who is a cop and an investor, I would re-think these properties. If they are that bad, they aren't worth it.
But, if you can do it legally, and are willing to put in the time to train and keep your skills sharp, most cops, including myself, welcome an armed civilian legally carrying and making good decisions.
What @Jonathan Killam stated. I do not own a firearm nor want to. However, if you do carry, you must be willing to use it and dedicate time for training.
Remember, weapons have one primary purpose - to kill rapidly. This goes for handguns, hunting rifles, or F-16 fighter jets. You simply must be aware of this when carrying one.
@Wy Kay even in “rougher” areas I don’t feel like I need a gun unless I was out there late at night. Which I’m not. Having a gun would probably do more harm than good as I would probably be viewed as the aggressor.
I have never seen anyone else with a gun either in any area I own something
Some stunningly ill-informed advice being offered on this one, but @Jason Allen's input is pretty solid. This really isn't a question of investments in a certain class property--its a bigger question than that. Either carry it (always) or don't. If you carry, do so after careful thought, thorough training and appropriate gravity.
@David Woz, spot on! I am also a cop and dept firearms instructor. I echo everything said and wanted to add an additional thought. Despite what the media will tell you, people who have a concealed weapons permits tend to be polite. There’s a saying, “An armed society is a polite society.” This idea is based on a simple principal, people don’t like getting shot and they don’t like shooting people. So if everyone is armed, it’s in everyone’s interest to avoid conflict. All this to say I believe if you decide to carry to your properties, I would suggest taking a verbal de escalation course. I have take a few and they are worth every penny (will improve negotiating deals as well).
I believe carrying a firearm has the opposite effect from what you described. You will not garner respect because of the threat of violence, you will garner respect because you will be more respectful to people in an effort to avoid conflict. Can’t stress enough, CARRY LEGALLY AND TRAIN OFTEN.
Contact me if you’d like some help discerning the quality of firearm training resources. Lots of good stuff and lots of not so good stuff.
I just don't buy in areas where I don't feel like i'd be safe.
I you do carry a gun, make sure you have a permit if your state requires it. My feeling on this though is that your apartments should not dictate the fact that you carry. If you think you're risking your life just going to check up on your property, or going to collect rent, maybe you should take some time to rethink your investment strategy.
@Wy Kay You could just carry everyday. That’s a good option. Your own security is your responsibility. So if you’d consider carrying in that circumstance then why not carry everywhere?
@Benjamin Tighe that second paragraph is the point here, and you hit the nail on the head. If you need to carry a weapon to make money, maybe re-evaluate your choices. Well said.
...Also, if you are carrying, people don't "respect" you because of that. If you are doing it properly, they won't know you have a firearm. I can't speak to NYC laws, but in CA, open cary is not legal...
Open carry in CA is legal with an open carry permit, which you can obtain from the sheriff in counties with a population of fewer than 200,000, ie most counties in the state.
You should never show signs of having a gun with you. This is for your protection, not to be the MACHO in the neighborhood. If you carry, you need something small that can hide in a holster within your body. DO NOT CARRY ONE if you are not comfortable using the gun if you have to point at someone, because most likely they will use one against you, specially in eastern coast states when the guys on the streets that have gust are, I assume, expert in dealing with people way worst than you or me.
@Wy Kay, I absolutely do, legally concealed. I carry everywhere it is legal, including my C and D class properties. I agree with the points that others have made about the necessity for thorough training. I’m ex-military and I practice regularly.
You also have to keep in mind that aggressive dogs are much more common in those rough areas, and you may end up defending yourself against one of those.
In an area like New York City, I would absolutely look into legal alternatives to self-defense because of the high likelihood of prosecution if you ever had to use the weapon. Pepper spray, stunguns, etc., although I’m sure New York City has restrictions on those as well.
@Wy Kay I’ve been turning properties over for a while now in the city of Detroit. I may not have seen it all but I’ve seen and experienced enough to know that
It’s not about carrying the gun.
It’s about how you carry yourself and deal with the people which will determine your ability to succeed in those areas and conditions.
Follow up: again, as a lifelong New Yorker, can you share what neighborhoods? I didn’t know NYC had any D-F properties left.
Over the years I have lived in some bad neighborhoods but did not feel unsafe. Probably because the actual buildings I lived in were nice. But that is to say being low key is essential.
If you are going to collect rents you may want to see if you can get your tenants banked in some way appropriate to them so you can digitize-automate that task.
It’s interesting to see how the attitude differs from region to region in this discussion. A lot of it seems to center around the perspective of being confortable around firearms. I would assume due to, or lack of early regular positive exposure. Empirically, it appears those from southern west coast, the northeast, and urban folks hold a more reserved opinion regarding firearms. Rural and southern folks exhibit a much higher level of comfort with firearms in general.
I know in my own life this holds true as well. Born and raised in the south, I had very early and consistent positive exposure to firearms in general. In the south firearms are viewed mostly as just another tool to do a job. Be that job defense, hunting, or just plinking cans at a range for fun. Firearms seem to lack the “demonized” aspect and are viewed as a dangerous item to be respected, but nothing more. I see the difference between urban and rural America exhibited here just like in the country at large.
Just as a friendly FYI to folks in other states with different laws: in NY State there is NO open carry. You can carry a “long gun” but I seriously doubt you are going get one foot down the street without EVERYONE scattering and calling the police, haha. Not that that was what Wy Kay was suggesting at all. Very comic visual. I can see the news trucks now.
I don't buy properties where I would need a gun and you probably won't have your gun with you when you do need it. One serious problem with guns is you need to seriously take a few seconds to think before you kill someone and many times the bad guys will take the gun away from you and kill you with it. While I own several hand guns, rifles and even a AR-15 and Barrett 416 I believe that a very high percent of people who own guns are reckless and cause their own death of the death of other innocent people.
@Wy Kay the most important thing besides carrying concealed is training with your weapon. So many people get their CCW and stop training with it. This is how your u get yourself shot.
Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility and is not for everyone. Train, train more, the. Continue training if you do choose to go that route.
If not mace/pepper spray is a good alternative but even this takes TRAINING and being familiar with the product you have and being able to deploy it effectively. Spray and run is a very good strategy.
The biggest problem I see with external weapons is it gives the person carrying them ( too much confidence ).
They take one training class or go shoot once every 4 months and think they are the next dirty harry. They let their guards down often and some feel like since they are carrying a weapon (knife, gun, whatever) ( they have the upper hand and can say and do what they want).
The funny thing but not really is people tend to hardly every practice with the one thing they have with them at all times (their body). People should usually get proficient with what they have with them at all times first and then go from there. Pepper sprays can actually be used against you for instance if there is wind outside it can blow back into your eyes. Tasers if someone is hyped up on drugs or similar can resist the effects of using such a device.
The biggest thing people can do is self awareness and not have stereotypes for this person is safe and this person is not etc. All are deemed unsafe until proven otherwise so you are always ready to act. Are the odds smaller with older people or younger kids being attackers? Sure but that does not mean it can't happen. Be aware of surroundings and what is going on. Don't put yourself in bad or questionable situations if at all possible. Attackers regardless of age look for what they deem easier targets. Example someone on the cell phone looking down seemingly unaware of their surroundings versus a person walking tall, head up, scanning the area as they walk. I don't like D to F areas for investing or to go there. If you truly calculate the RISK versus the REWARD in a lot of cases it's simply not there. The equity gains and rent growth from higher quality areas over time generally outpaces high crime area properties cash flow metric only.
I first went into martial arts decades ago and my family has had people in the military and the police force. My friends and I (3 of us) were attacked on a beach in broad daylight in a safer area for spring break when we were teenagers by a gang of 10 people. It was down in Panama City Beach, Florida. A bystander came by to help out and the gang leader and him fought on the beach and in the ocean. We ran back to our hotel 3 spots down and came back later. Luckily my 2 friends just had black eyes and I had a sore shoulder. When we came back police were there and security guard for hotel pepper sprayed gang leader and others while we were gone. They broke window into one of the hotel rooms and splashed out eyes in the sink and ran off before cops could arrive. Cops said they see this from time to time and gangs came from Alabama and other states and do not stay at any hotel so hard to track them down. They turned my friends upside down on the beach and cop said they were looking for drug, booze money in pockets, etc.
All of the crap people see on TV or movies isn't real. A real altercation maybe lasts seconds to a few minutes at most. A couple of properly placed strikes can leave someone knocked out or incapacitated. It happens real fast but those seconds or minutes can feel like a lifetime in the moment. I have a lot of respect for police but in reality by the time police are called and they get there in many case the event HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. It is more rare for them to get there in time while the event is happening in process. That is another false belief that people will call police and they will arrive in time to get there so no worries. For many people being violent and defending themselves is not in their nature as they are caring and accepting by heart. The attacker generally has little to no reservations about what they are doing. As a person defending yourself you have to be willing to do what it takes to survive and be the last one standing to preserve your life.
Close quarters a knife can inflict a lot more damage than a gun in many cases. The knife can hit lots of arteries and muscle groups whereas a gun unless hitting a specific target exactly can have more limited damage. There are telltale signs if someone knows how to use a knife proficiently or not.
In martial arts we have conditioning to try and not be in a situation at all costs or run away from 4 attackers and if one is still chasing later on then deal with them. There are shielding techniques if you can't get away to try and take out one attacker at a time.
When you have been attacked in real life you don't let it define you but carry it with you as a reminder to be cautious and ready while still enjoying life to the fullest. You just tend to have a different perspective than others who have not been attacked and have an idea in their head of what will happen in such a situation versus reality.
There is no legal or self defense advice given and some modes of defense can be deemed as (excessive force) based on the situation at hand.
I always carry my gun when visiting C/D class properties by myself. It's a legal carry - I have my concealed permit. No reason not to use it for it's intended purpose (self defense/protection).
