Renters want to move out due to Rat infestation.

Renters want to move out due to Rat infestation.

SFR Investor · Member since 2011 · 198 posts · 61 votes

I have a young couple that has been in my home since last December, every quarter I do an inspection on the home to make sure everything is working etc. The first two inspections went well and the home was very clean. The home is one of the nicest homes on the street and is rented under market value for the area but the area is not great.

On Friday I get a call from them saying they are moving out due to rats in the house. I asked them when they noticed them and why no one told me before I get a notice they are moving. They stated about two weeks ago and they are running all over the house.

I was out of town so I went over on Sunday armed with about 120 dollars in rodent bait and supplies. I entered the home and looked everywhere and only found mice droppings in the laundry room. I put out bait everywhere including under the house and attic. I thought this would be good enough since I found little evidence of any mice or rats.

Now while I was in there I noted the brand new carpet had nasty stains everywhere and the hardwood floors looked like they had not been cleaned in a long time with stains on them. Today I get a notice to vacate the home on September 30th and they want all of their deposit back on that date. They hired a consumer advocate to help them and this is the letter I received from her below.


NOTICE IS HERBY GIVEN that because of the above dwelling’s condition and chosen remedy, substantially endangers the health and safety of the tenants and your failure to comply with your implied warranty of habitability by refusing to repair defects on the premises, in a proper and professional manger, as previously demanded of you, the undersigned tenant has elected to vacate the premises without penalty in accordance with California law.

A formal and final walk through is to take place on Sept 30, 2012 @ 3:30pm. The tenants will vacate the premises no later than September 30, 2012 by end of final walk through.

v The tenants waive their right to pro-rated rent reimbursement

v The tenants waive their right to reimbursement of property damage to personal belongings caused by rodent infestation and to relocation expenses.

It is expected that the tenants deposit will be refunded in full, due to zero damage beyond normal wear and tear to the property. Documentation is available for your review upon request.

It is requested, since the tenants are acting in good faith and waiving their legal rights, that the deposit be personally handed to tenants by end of final walk through on September 30, 2012 without prejudice.

If you have any questions or concerns regarding this notice, feel free to contact me. Thank you in advance for your cooperation in this matter.

On behalf of the tenants, M & J, we extend our sincere thank you and success in your future endeavors.

Today I called a name brand pest control company to inspect the property and take care of the problem. My question is since I am properly taking care of the problem do they have to honor the 30 days notice in my rental agreement and the up to 21 days to return the deposit?

I have a suspicion that since the wife got a better paying job they just want to move out now to a nicer area and want the money back now to move and there is no huge infestation.

Please help me with this as I have never had this problem yet.

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Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
14y

They have lawyer'ed up. You need to do the same.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    14y

    They have lawyer'ed up. You need to do the same.

  • Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    14y

    What are the laws in California as far as when a deposit needs to be returned? In Michigan, it's within 30 days after move out. Tenants always think they are going to move out, throw you the keys, and you hand them their deposit. They seem to think it will be in cash also. I always explain to them that I need to go through the house and make sure there is no damage. I also need to contact the city and make sure there are no outstanding fines for not mowing lawn, etc. I also need to make sure the water is paid, as it would become a lien on my property.

    I agree that you need to lawyer up. These people are coming at you with their guns loaded.

  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    14y

    And CA is a very tenant friendly state.

  • SFR Investor · Member since 2011 · 198 posts · 61 votes
    14y

    It looks like I have 35 days to remedy the pest problem to the tenants satisfaction and then they can move out without giving 30 days? Is anyone in California that can help me with this? I would think that since I called a professional company in a reasonable time frame they would be obligated to give the 30 days notice.

    Also there is no way I can return the deposit until I make sure there is no hidden damage or to see if they paid all of the utilities bills up to date first. I will not tell them this until they have handed me the keys and vacated the property.

  • Property Manager · Kissimmee, FL · Member since 2012 · 68 posts · 8 votes
    14y

    Hold them to the letter of the law. In Florida, if a tenant doesn't make you aware of the rodent problem in writing, then they have no standing to vacate the lease. But, as has been stated above, get a lawyer involved.

  • SFR Investor · Member since 2011 · 198 posts · 61 votes
    14y

    This is a small house that only rents for 600 a month, just advice is going to eat up a months profit. The pest control came last night and verified it is a SMALL mouse problem and not rats.

    He told me they took all kinds of pictures and some of them appeared to be staged. He also said that they had all ready moved most of their things to their new house.

    I think I may have a new tenant lined up so I may let them go at the end of the month but they are not getting the deposit back until all the utilites are paid up and I make sure there is no damage to the home I missed on the first inspection since this was a newly remodeled home with everything new inside when they moved in.

    I knew as soon as I found out she had aquired a better paying job that was the reason for the sudden "huge rat infestation" so they could move to a nicer area.

    I dont blame them for wanting to do better but they should be honest and do it the right way.

  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    14y

    Investors don't think the 50% rule applies to them until situations like this come up. Paying for a lawyer is just part of the cost of being in this business. You are probably 100% correct that the tenants just want to move and are using this as an excuse. But you're in a tenant friendly state and they have already brought in a lawyer. Unless this is your first rental and you've only had it a short time, you should already have a lawyer at your disposal. This will likely be a 15 minute conversation and cost, at most, $50. If you don't have a lawyer in your stable, you may have to spend $200 up front. But then you will probably have some credit with this lawyer.

    You indicate you've already called an exterminator. I'm sure you're going to pay that person. Call a lawyer.

    Another piece of advice is to forget long term leases. As you're seeing, if the tenants want to leave they will leave. A lease is far more binding on you than the tenant. Do a month to month and they can leave just by giving you proper notice. May or may not have eliminated the drama, but it gives the tenant an easy out so hopefully they choose to take that rather than staging dead rat pictures.

  • SFR Investor · Member since 2011 · 198 posts · 61 votes
    14y

    Jon Holdman thank you for the reply. I have all of my homes on month to month and the only problem I have is them skipping out on 17 days of rent and wanting their deposit back the day they leave. I did a lot of research before I jumped into the rental business and had just put off buying a lawyer up until now because I did not have a problem yet.

    I will check into securing an attorney when I get back from letting in the pest company this afternoon. I guess no matter how well you screen the tenants nothing is fool proof.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    14y

    Didn't read all of it but these two points you could argue as grounds for keeping the deposit.

    "safety of the tenants and your failure to comply with your implied warranty of habitability by refusing to repair defects on the premises, in a proper and professional manger, as previously demanded of you,"

    According to you they DID NOT notify you and the judge will usually ask if the tenant gave notice in writing??

    If they can't provide that their claim becomes weak on the security deposit.

    "It is expected that the tenants deposit will be refunded in full, due to zero damage beyond normal wear and tear to the property."

    According to you again there was excess wear and tear on the property than what is customary for the time frame that they rented it.

    So they are making false claims in writing trying to bolster their position in getting security deposit back from what you are saying.

    The key question is how much time and money do you want to throw at this or do you just want them out and move on??

    How much security deposit are we talking about here??

  • SFR Investor · Member since 2011 · 198 posts · 61 votes
    14y

    Joel thanks for the reply, I went over to let in the pest control guy today and took many pictures. The stains may come out of the carpet or may not it just depends on what they are and who treats them. I found new damage to the wall in the master bedroom where the bed frame dug holes in the wall from banging into it for some reason, it also scrubbed black paint on the wall. That wall will need repaired and repainted for sure.

    The whole house is pretty filthy like it has not been cleaned in a few months. The deposit is only 1,200 dollars so if the carpets are bad there will not be much left. I spent a little extra for mid grade 10 year warranted carpet. They pay rent on the 11th and notified me on the 16th, they want out on the 30th and the rest of the 11 days rent returned.

    The name brand pest guy said that it was a small mouse problem and the tenants did not need to move so that was good to hear. He said that the tenants told him they had the problem six weeks or so, they told me it was two weeks before they told me. The tenant sent me pictures of said RATS tonight and in the picture they are holding the trap with a pair of lineman's pliers, the mouse is not much bigger than the head of the pliers!

    I am pretty confidant that with all the evidence against them that I have compiled they will back down once its all put together. All I want out of this is my full 30 days notice and return what deposit they have coming back in the 21 days allotted once I make sure all the utilities are paid and the house is repaired.

    I have the emails from them so it is documented except the day the husband called and was hostile with me on the phone for the second time in ten months. Today he came over to the next door neighbors house while I was visiting him and was giving me a hard time about letting in the pest guy after they told me it was an emergency and they had to move out. I gave them several hours notice since it was an "Emergency" So I have another witness as of today to their behavior.

    I always make friends with the permanent neighbors next to my homes and they watch my back for me. At Christmas time everyone gets something and a card.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Jeffrey C.:
    ... I found new damage to the wall in the master bedroom where the bed frame dug holes in the wall from banging into it for some reason, it also scrubbed black paint on the wall. That wall will need repaired and repainted for sure.
    ...

    Let's take a guess to figure out "some reason" - What type of physical activity do people engage in while in their bed? The earth can move sometimes :)

  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    14y

    Jeffrey C. - From reading a few of the responses above, I think I have a completely slightly different take and one that Joel Owens started to touch on.

    I would not waste any dollars or time on a lawyer or arguing. The tenant wants to move out. They are asking for a walk through on September 30th. They probably want a full deposit to assist them with the deposit on their next property. IMO, your best bet here is to inform them that you will refund the amount of their deposit as is warranted by the condition of the property on September 30. Who cares about the 21 days to return it? If the property is in acceptable condition, i.e. - no holes in the walls, no excessive wear and tear, then why not give them the deposit? If you can re-rent the property quickly with relatively few dollars out of pocket then that is a GREAT thing! I wold let them know that outside of holding back part of the deposit to insure utilities are paid, they can have a full deposit if the property is in the same condition as the day they moved in. That is what the deposit is for. That way you are not being defensive or giving them any reason to need a "consumer advocate".

    I have been down both sides of this road and I can promise you it is not worth the money or the hassle. If they leave your property nice, you will be sitting in a position that 99% of the real estate investors on this forum wish their tenants would put them in.

    So if it were me, I would not spend any money on a lawyer or fighting a tenant that wants to move out. Just try to get the situation as much in your favor as possible and treat them fairly. You'll deal with less stress and save the lawyer fees for the big issues.

  • SFR Investor · Member since 2011 · 198 posts · 61 votes
    14y

    @Chris Clothier thanks for the reply, this sounds like a good first plan. The wall with the holes and damage will need repairs and paint, the carpet I will make a decision on the walk through. I am more than fair with my tenants but if there are still stains I will have to withhold the deposit until I find out what needs to be deducted. If they are clean I can return half of the money then once they have provided me with receipts showing the utilities are paid in full and I have the house is repaired I can return what is left.

    I have had good success removing organic stains with Oxyclean that some carpet cleaning companies did not get out, it seems to make even red wine disappear and lose its color. I will try this then call a second carpet cleaning company first before I charge them for new carpet. Also if its just a couple of bad spots I stock labeled remnants for each home in my storage. As of now though stains cover 75% of the carpet area so we will see what happens.

    The pest company will write me a full detailed report on the condition of the home that is pretty damaging to their case. He found all of the closets filled at the bottom with piles of clothes, shoes etc. including food. In the child's bedroom closet there was a candy wrapper chewed open and chocolate crumbs next to it where the mice had been feeding on it under two feet deep of toys. He also noted the dirty condition of the home and lack of cleaning as a contributing factor.

    This leaves me with the issue of do I return 11 days of rent they should pay me to meet the 30 days notice they are required to give me since they did not have a valid reason to leave.

  • Residential Landlord · Chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 356 posts · 81 votes
    14y

    30 day notice does not give them the opportunity to break a month to month lease mid-month. If they failed to notify you 30 days prior to October 1 of their intent not to renew for the month of October they are responsible for the entire month of October.

  • Investor and Architect · Ramsey, NJ · Member since 2010 · 305 posts · 84 votes
    14y

    Jon Holdman

    I am intrigued by your advice to use a MTM lease rather than yearly.

    Perhaps I will do this with my next tenants or when the current lease expires.

    Could you elaborate on the upsides and downsides of both?

    Thanks

  • SFR Investor · Member since 2011 · 198 posts · 61 votes
    14y

    @Dave Meyer I think they were trying to use the Rat infestation excuse to say the house was uninhabitable and they had to move due to that so they could break the month to month agreement mid month. They even threatened to send the health department in to inspect my home if I did not meet their demands. They will find out on the 30th how weak their case is.

    @Larry K. I use a month to month in California because there really is not much upside for the landlord here and a huge list not to use a yearly lease. I do not tell my tenants they are on month to month when they sign the rental agreement they always assume its a one year lease. This way they think they are obligated to stay a year as most do not read what is in the thing. I do cover all of the important points of the rental agreement and have them initial each one on the agreement to cover me showing them.

    Maybe someone else can elaborate a little more on this as I have only been a landlord a couple of years so I am still learning.

    One more point I would like advice on is since they said this was and emergency and they had to move out right now, is it my right to enter the home with little notice to work on the problem? I have read a lot and it appears I have that right in emergency situations and I have to give 24 hours for any other entry in California. I gave them a few hours notice for yesterdays pest visit and he will need to come back every few days until the mice are gone.

    Since the male tenant was hostile with the pest guy and myself yesterday I would like to avoid him by coming while he is at work until they are gone.

  • Residential Landlord · Chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 356 posts · 81 votes
    14y

    Since its "uninhabitable" there's no need to notify anyone, right?

    I realize they are making that claim to break the lease. But if that were the case they wouldn't be asking for a 30 day out, instead there would be grounds for immediate termination of the lease. They might even be entitled to moving expenses or some other compensation.

    What does your lease say about notice for entry? I would follow that explicitly, no sense giving them any ammunition at this point. It sounds like you've done everything you can to handle the situation properly. If you have scheduled a service at the property to address a tenant's repair request its hard for them to complain or deny access.

    The exterminator's first visit may have been an "emergency" visit, but since you mentioned the exterminator returning every few days those follow ups are known well in advance and you can provide appropriate notice.

    P.S. may not be worth getting into this, but from what you posted it sounds like the tenants caused the problem. If so, they could be held responsible for the exterminator's costs.

  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    14y

    Jeffrey C. , the unfortunate part of a lot of the advice is that it all costs you money. Legally, you may be right to keep all of their deposit and the 11 days of rent. Legally and ethically, you may be right to enter the premises without notice and make many other decisions about your property. The question comes down to are you prepared to pay a lawyer and tie your self up in court and any number of other legal activities you are going to have to take all because a tenant decided to leave early.

    It is very easy to give you advice about being a tough guy land lord and sticking up for your rights and I'm not against any of that. Just pick and choose which battles you are going to spend your money and time on. Otherwise, as Jon Holdman noted, you will be spending a lot of money on things you may not have figured into your calculations when you first bought properties. I would caution you to spend your money and time wisely and make decisions that lead you to your best outcome the quickest.

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    14y

    Sounds like teh biggest lesson in all this is to not use nice carpet in a cheap rental.

  • Property Manager · Kissimmee, FL · Member since 2012 · 68 posts · 8 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Chris Clothier:
    It is very easy to give you advice about being a tough guy land lord and sticking up for your rights and I'm not against any of that. Just pick and choose which battles you are going to spend your money and time on.

    Very good advice

  • SFR Investor · Member since 2011 · 198 posts · 61 votes
    14y

    Good carpet for me is cheap, I take pictures at special events my floor guy throws at his bar and in exchange I get wholesale pricing. That house was 600 dollars installed with a 10 pound pad and 10 year warranted carpet.

    Now that he gives me these deals other installers match it if he is busy because I tell them I will just wait for him to do it.

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Jeffrey C.:
    The whole house is pretty filthy like it has not been cleaned in a few months. The deposit is only 1,200 dollars so if the carpets are bad there will not be much left. I spent a little extra for mid grade 10 year warranted carpet.

    This gives the impression that the carpet was much more expensive than 600. If you get a great deal, that is good. I'd still rather spend zero dollars sweeping and mopping tile,vinyl or wood rather than 600 on carpet, but we all have our own style. I like Chris's advice regarding handling the deposit.

  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    14y

    So, Chris Clothier is saying you should tell them that if they leave on Sept 30 and the property is in the condition it was when they rented it, you will give them their deposit back on the spot. I don't really have an issue with saying that. And if it was clean, even doing that.

    OTOH, what if its not? You're already saying the carpet is trashed and may need to be replaced. So the more likely scenario is that you look around and there are things that you would deduct from the security deposit. You say "sorry, no deposit today because the condition is not the same as when you moved in. I'll fix this and send you what's left." They're going to be upset. Are you prepared for that?

  • Chris ClothierBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    14y

    Jon Holdman, you are correct and sometimes, even though i am long winded when i write on here, there is not enough space or time to go into all the details. IMO, that puts him in a better position to hold a deposit than saying I am holding it since you broke the lease or argue that they are moving out due to a rat problem. Jeffrey C. posted what was said in the letter and I believe it noted that they would leave the property in the same condition minus normal wear and tear. I imagine they will argue that the damage is normal wear and tear, but Jeffrey C. will be able to use their words as his leverage to withhold some of the deposit and fix any issues. They may not agree on normal wear and tear, but when it is excessive, if he is fair, he will be on good legal standing to withhold some of the money for repairs.

    My main point is that based on all of the information on here, it could cost a lot more to hire a lawyer and spend your time fighting - IN THIS SCENARIO - than to allow them to move out, inspect the property with them and withhold part of the deposit due to excessive wear and tear. Just pick the right battles and save yourself time and money where you can.

  • SFR Investor · Member since 2011 · 198 posts · 61 votes
    14y

    If the carpet is mostly clean and I do not see any other damage I will probably give them close to half of their deposit back. The wall damage will be a deduction for sure since its in the rental agreement we do not allow tenants to do repairs or paint.

    They can't close out the utilities until after their move out and that could add up 200 to 400 dollars depending on where they are in the billing cycle. I would need to hold back enough for that, also they have tripped the alarm several times since they have been there and I need to check with the county that I do not owe them money for that. Funny I have set my alarm off less in my lifetime than these two in ten months.

    I once called a big name carpet company that advertises on TV to come over for an estimate on this home.I still have have the estimate here and have considered framing it, the cost for the same carpet and pad was...... 2,400 dollars! They told me to call my friend to do an estimate in writing and they would beat his deal. I told them there was no way I was going to make someone come over and give me an estimate knowing I was using someone else. That's just dishonest and shady business.

    I have a question for everyone what do you think I should use for a life expectancy on "lifetime waranteed" paint and laminate flooring?

    I used carpet in the back half of this house due to the floors being a little uneven since the home was built in 1940. I probably could have leveled out the bedrooms that are a little wavy and put laminate in the back half too since the hallway is pretty level.

    I do all tile and laminate in my homes now but I have a few of my first homes where I did carpet in the back half.

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