Rent Strike Will Become Psychological Nemesis
Rental Property Investor · Boise/Portland · Member since 2017 · 709 posts · 742 votes
Rent Strike Will Become Psychological Nemesis
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Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
6yThis is a common response from someone that is controlled by emotion. You made that statement without first attempting to learn about me. I did grow up poor. My dad died when I was six, raised by a single mom on government cheese, powdered milk, and most of my clothes were hand-me-downs and garage sale finds. I started working in the fields at age 12, right next to illegal immigrants, so I could afford school supplies. All my family grew up in trailers. I thought college and skiing was only for rich kids and never imagined I could be better. I lived paycheck-to-paycheck. I racked up credit card debt. In other words, I knew poverty, embraced it as my reality, and continued making decisions that ensured I stayed there. One day I looked around and realized I wasn't being held down by society or rich people or my circumstances; I was held captive by limiting beliefs and poor choices.
Government handouts have nothing to do with the topic. Two wrongs don't make a right.
A large number of (mostly) low-income wage earners are demanding free rent even though they are likely to make more money, not less, due to the COVID pandemic. If that offends you, feel free to open your rentals up to some low-income people, give them a few months of free rent, and how that ends for you.
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53 Replies
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Mary M.:
Wait..... hand out??? They are not getting a hand out. The govt shut down the economy - they are out of jobs due to no fault of their own.
It really pisses me off that you are blaming the poor for having no money during an emergency.
Mary, don't blow it out of proportion and try to make it look like I hate poor people. The government is compensating people for their losses and a majority will make more that they did before, not less. Call that whatever you want.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7247 Reviews - Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes6y
80% of what we worry about never happens. I don't see rent strikes being among the 20%.
I've enjoyed the so broke we couldn't pay attention stories. We could be cousins...
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:
80% of what we worry about never happens. I don't see rent strikes being among the 20%.
I've enjoyed the so broke we couldn't pay attention stories. We could be cousins...
Agreed! Knowledge is power, but it is also a curse. No one is happier than a dog :)
Skyline Properties - 6yScott TrenchPro MemberRental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
As has been discussed in other threads, in the event of true loss of job, no unemployment, no gov't bailout, no savings or liquidity, no other sources of income, a very small minority of tenants will truly be unable to pay rent. Most landlords will work with these otherwise good tenants, some won't. The nasty landlords will make headlines, and make us all look bad.
On the other side of this, and the fear for landlords in a rent strike, is that otherwise able to pay tenants who do have work, unemployment, severance, bailout, savings, etc. rent strike. While some might do this, I don't believe it will be a widespread problem.
There are three reasons why this will not happen en masse:
1) Capitalization: The landlord is typically well-capitalized, with 6 months of reserves for precisely this type of situation. If ALL tenants stop paying, the carnage won't begin to impact landlords at scale for at least three, more likely 6+ months.
It appears that many of these groups have no long-term agenda other than to "stop paying rent". This is very silly. There is no "we'd like reduced rent, better amenities, etc." It's literally "we don't want to pay rent. At all." It appears then that their goal is to temporarily stop paying rent and perhaps for portion of them, to simultaneously harm their "evil" landlord however they can. With this sort of agenda, there is no long-term victory, because it's a completely impossible platform.
Further, a rent-striking tenant is highly unlikely to be well-capitalized - otherwise they would not risk their housing and credit for the long-term in order to capitalize on a temporary eviction freeze. This means that in a game of chicken with two ultimatums, the landlords will usually "win", in the sense that they will wait out the non-payment, evict, and replace. The landlord loses a bit of cash flow. The tenant sets themselves up for years of ruined credit and pain. The only way the tenant "wins" is if they are able to stay in place for a prolonged period of time without being evicted. Then they still ultimately lose when they are evicted and sued. This is downside protection.
2) Security Deposit: In the event of eviction, the landlord can keep the security deposit as collateral rent and damages. This means that the tenant only actually gets a cash advantage if the strike continues for multiple months. If the courts reopen in 1 month, the landlord doesn't even lose that much cash flow. This is downside protection.
3) Eviction and Bankruptcy: When the courts do reopen, the landlord will accrue rent and late fees, file for eviction, sue, and bankrupt the rent-striker. This will ruin the rent striker's ability to find housing or qualify for other financings for many years, a minimum of 7-10. This is an absurd price to pay for an uncertain amount of "free" rent. Only a few crazies will be game for this. This is Mutually Assured Destruction, skewed heavily in the landlord's favor.
Here it is @Matthew McNeil Portland's version:
https://pdxrentstrike.info/- Lake Elsinore, CA · Member since 2018 · 235 posts · 300 votes6y
I think there is panic on both sides. I've seen quite a few "rent strike" threads on Twitter and the prevailing logic is that landlords are getting mortgage breaks, tenants should get rent breaks. Also, landlords need to get "real jobs." LOL.
They're also digging up threads where landlords are panicking about rent strikes and posting them so...just be careful what you post, folks.
I do have empathy for tenants and this is a terrible time to bring up the many flaws to our social system, which would be an entirely separate thread. But I have no doubt the paper-thin feeling of security most working people feel is a huge reason behind the heightened reactions right now, in addition to the uncertainty of the pandemic.
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Courtney M.:
I think there is panic on both sides. I've seen quite a few "rent strike" threads on Twitter and the prevailing logic is that landlords are getting mortgage breaks, tenants should get rent breaks. Also, landlords need to get "real jobs." LOL.
They're also digging up threads where landlords are panicking about rent strikes and posting them so...just be careful what you post, folks.
I do have empathy for tenants and this is a terrible time to bring up the many flaws to our social system, which would be an entirely separate thread. But I have no doubt the paper-thin feeling of security most working people feel is a huge reason behind the heightened reactions right now, in addition to the uncertainty of the pandemic.
Boycotts virtually never work. In my own lifetime, I remember many boycott attempts; virtually none of them had any kind of success beyond possibly some minor changes in corporate behavior, unless they had the force of government behind them. I remember when religious groups were going to boycott Disney because they provided same-sex benefits. I remember when anti-religious groups were going to boycott Chik Fil-A for their support of certain candidates, and then religious groups were going to boycott them for not donating to religious groups any more. None of these things made any difference. The Montgomery Bus boycott of 1955? THAT made a difference, because the cause was real and just and those participating were resolute in their cause.
Most people realize there is a moral duty to pay for the things you consume, including your housing, whether you are buying a house and paying the bank or renting a house and paying a landlord. As @Scott Trench noted above, only a few crazies will play Armeggedon with their housing. I remember similar efforts in 2007/2008 when the financial crisis was hitting. You know what happened to most of those people? They ended up in the street with their TVs and pots and pans when the sheriff carried their stuff out to the curb, because the force and history of property law is ultimately not going to reside with those without tangible interest in the property. In other words, a few people might do this and get away with it for a month or two or three, but there's no way the laws are going to be changed in all of the Western World that is going to favor squatter's rights, and when this crisis subsides those few who do so will find they have wrecked their credit and created unnecessary chaos in their lives.
Skyline Properties - Real Estate Investor · Chattahoochee, FL · Member since 2014 · 133 posts · 107 votes6y
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
This is a common response from someone that is controlled by emotion. You made that statement without first attempting to learn about me. I did grow up poor. My dad died when I was six, raised by a single mom on government cheese, powdered milk, and most of my clothes were hand-me-downs and garage sale finds. I started working in the fields at age 12, right next to illegal immigrants, so I could afford school supplies. All my family grew up in trailers. I thought college and skiing was only for rich kids and never imagined I could be better. I lived paycheck-to-paycheck. I racked up credit card debt. In other words, I knew poverty, embraced it as my reality, and continued making decisions that ensured I stayed there. One day I looked around and realized I wasn't being held down by society or rich people or my circumstances; I was held captive by limiting beliefs and poor choices.
Government handouts have nothing to do with the topic. Two wrongs don't make a right.
A large number of (mostly) low-income wage earners are demanding free rent even though they are likely to make more money, not less, due to the COVID pandemic. If that offends you, feel free to open your rentals up to some low-income people, give them a few months of free rent, and how that ends for you.
I have to admit that you are right, I did not know your background. I did not prejudge you I just didn't think your sentiments were entirely well informed. Being poor gives one perspective, but may not fill in the entirety of the picture. I apologize if I offended. That wasn't my intent. It just bothers me, every now and again, when I see people bad mouthing the poor. There are a hundred thousand ways to get to poverty and to stay there. I agree with you that hard work and diligent money management can get you out of it. If those things were easy we wouldn't have much in the way of poverty. I won't go through my story as you did. I don't think mine is any worse, it certainly isn't any better and that's for sure. I am glad that you made a life for yourself as have I and it seems that it was through hard work and focus. Good luck with your endeavors.
- Real Estate Agent · Los Angeles · Member since 2020 · 5 posts · 1 vote6y
@Nathan G. The same can be said about corporations too. Financial education has always been a large missing gap in the majority of American consciousness.
- Real Estate Agent · Los Angeles · Member since 2020 · 5 posts · 1 vote6y
@Mary Mitchell the other thing is Landlords can be tenants too....and they're tenants of their mortgage 99% of the time.
- Member since 2018 · 8 posts · 2 votes6y
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
It's based on emotions and greed and has been from the beginning.
The most likely participants are low-income workers. They are most likely going to receive over 100% of their normal income thanks to the stimulus (unemployment plus $1,200 stimulus checks). Their income may be delayed, but they are unlikely to lose anything in the long run. Their response? Demand even more.
This is exactly why stimulus doesn't work. People live paycheck-to-paycheck, failing to budget, save, or invest. Hard times hit, they can't pay their bills, so we bail them out. They will never learn to budget, save, or invest because someone continues to bail them out. This makes them even less likely to improve their lives and creates a more dependent society which means bailouts will have to be bigger the next time.
can you provide stats backing up the claim that it will be poor people asking for the free rent?
- Lititz, PA · Member since 2013 · 595 posts · 272 votes6y
Make no mistake, housing providers are tenants too. If the property taxes aren't paid the government takes your property. It's as simple as that. We pay property taxes to four different taxing entities. School tax, village tax, town tax, and county tax.
I just read in another thread that LA County has stated property taxes are still due because they are needed to provide services. Rental payments are needed for the same reason, to provide services. - Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @James McClincy:
No. It's completely anecdotal which is why I said, "most likely."
My perspective is based on what I've observed. I've been following rent strike for over three weeks, about two weeks before most pepole were even aware it existed. I've watched it grow, I've flagged their posts and discussion groups for advocating violence towards Landlords and Property Managers, I've read thousands of posts and dozens of news articles. In my experience, the advocates are almost always under 30 and give the impression they are below middle class. It's hardly scientific...but I'd put money on it.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7247 Reviews - Member since 2018 · 8 posts · 2 votes6y
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
Originally posted by @James McClincy:
No. It's completely anecdotal which is why I said, "most likely."
My perspective is based on what I've observed. I've been following rent strike for over three weeks, about two weeks before most pepole were even aware it existed. I've watched it grow, I've flagged their posts and discussion groups for advocating violence towards Landlords and Property Managers, I've read thousands of posts and dozens of news articles. In my experience, the advocates are almost always under 30 and give the impression they are below middle class. It's hardly scientific...but I'd put money on it.
so you would admit also that you could be wrong?
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @James McClincy:
Absolutely. Do you have some evidence to show that the people most likely to support this movement are NOT under 30 and below middle class? I'm always open to evidence!
The DIY Landlord Book4.7247 Reviews - Rental Property Investor · Boise/Portland · Member since 2017 · 709 posts · 742 votes6y
Originally posted by @Jeff S.:
Here it is @Matthew McNeil Portland's version:
https://pdxrentstrike.info/Wow, and they've already got a website up! Interesting what they said about landlords;
"Landlords have resources that will allow them to withstand this crisis better than any of us. We have to ensure our own survival, that our
families and those we care about. As with anything, your most important duty is to yourself." - Member since 2018 · 8 posts · 2 votes6y
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
Originally posted by @James McClincy:
Absolutely. Do you have some evidence to show that the people most likely to support this movement are NOT under 30 and below middle class? I'm always open to evidence!
you made the claim and have zero evidence to back it up. just an opinion.
- Lititz, PA · Member since 2013 · 595 posts · 272 votes6y
Originally posted by @James McClincy:
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
Originally posted by @James McClincy:
Absolutely. Do you have some evidence to show that the people most likely to support this movement are NOT under 30 and below middle class? I'm always open to evidence!
you made the claim and have zero evidence to back it up. just an opinion.
According to the definition of evidence, he did provide evidence. He made a statement based on information he has (which he explained). This meets the definition of evidence. If you are suggesting he is a liar and that he is lying about his observations than that is a very different accusation than the incorrect one that he has not provided evidence. But you can't have both someone providing factual information as evidence, and a liar. So which is it? Do you want to call him a liar or do you want to rescind your claim that he did not provide evidence?
evidence by definition: "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid"
- Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
I think this topic is somewhat sensational. Organizing a successful rent strike is unlikely for many reasons. Some tenants are going to have employment, reserves and prefer to have a good relationship with their landlord and a peaceful continued occupancy of their unit. Therefore this trend will be more individual defaulters, rather than a collective community organizing.
Few important points.
Tenants know what is going on now. And some will take advantage, or at least try to. Yet a substantial portion of these cases may truly be needy, especially as time goes on.
Tenants talk. If word gets out that you are waiving rent from someone, others will want the same.
Create a very complicated process for rent reduction. An application, documentation that they were laid off, evidence they applied for unemployment and perhaps the amount they are receiving. Create an income worksheet, entitling you to a percentage of their unemployment check.
Be liberal with agreed rent deferments and waive all late fees during these times. Rent deferments need to be in writing, like an addendum to the lease.
- Member since 2020 · 3 posts · 6 votes6y
The attitude of the government, both federal and local in this is concerning. Landlords are not getting breaks from their mortgage companies. Deferment is the only thing offered. This means..all payments will be due at the same time. If the landlord does not receive rent for 3 months and mortgage is deferred 3 months, mortgage company wants 4 payments at once. In the meantime, tenant has gotten over their head and decided to move out. Not only is the landlord out of income, the place is usually damaged. This is the most likely scenario (20plus yrs in the bus.) Someone mentioned landlords being capitalized and having the funds to put ip with this. Reserves are for when major issues, such as an a/c or water heater go out. Not when the government decides to shut down country and make landlords pay for their decisions. Evictions have been frozen in some places for as much as 4 months and smaller landlords cannot absorb this shock, especially if they already own 7-10 units. Today Georgia’s governor told everyone on the radio to call their landlord if they cannot pay rent. I have been a landlord for 20 years and lived through multiple disasters, including the Great Recession. Never had the government pushed the tenant’s financial responsibility onto the landlord. They have always funded nonprofits, which provided rental assistance. There are people that depend on rental income just as much as someone that works any other job. Even if there was true mortgage assistance, which there is not, some landlords are out of money that is needed to pay their essential bills. Since the government got is in this mess, they need to get us out and not leave the landlord holding the bag for everyone out there.
- Ames, IA · Member since 2020 · 10 posts · 1 vote6y
@Nathan G. This is a very one sided thing to say. Most of us “low income” workers are living paycheck to paycheck because we have too much debt. (Ie. student loans for me personally.) The stimulus check is a one time thing, and people across the globe have lost their jobs completely. It’ll take a lot longer than one paycheck for those people to find jobs and gain financial stability again. I absolutely agree with the fact that a strike is unnecessary and greedy, but for those who don’t have any options... are you really willing to be one of the big bad guys that just say “Oh well. Pay rent or gtfo”? I think there should be rules in place for those who have legitimately lost income completely from this virus specifically, and a no-tolerance policy for the rest whom are trying to benefit unjustly.
- Member since 2020 · 3 posts · 6 votes6y
During the Great Recession, a large amount of money was funneled into nonprofits for rental and mortgage assistance. This kept tenants that were down on their luck from leaving Aunt June who owned 2 rentals and very dependent on the income in a lurch. The way this is now pits landlords against tenants. If the landlords have to absorb the tenants rent for up to 4 months and pay for a wrecked property, we will see a lot fewer private rentals. There was a rental shortage before this happened and after this is over the shortage will get larger, unless we switch to everyone being in public housing. In the past, when I had a tenant that could not pay, I gave them the number to a charity that could help. These organizations are equipped to help those in need. They have the tools to verify, interview, and can sniff out the fraudsters. It’s not a matter of landlords having to do their part, some landlords genuinely cannot foot the bill for the tenants. Not all landlords are large companies. Most are small mom and pop landlords or are accidental landlords that are operating at a loss. The government needs to fund nonprofits to help tenants, not depend on private landlords to pay for the country’s economic shutdown.
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Kayla Jobes:
@Nathan G. This is a very one sided thing to say. Most of us “low income” workers are living paycheck to paycheck because we have too much debt. (Ie. student loans for me personally.) The stimulus check is a one time thing, and people across the globe have lost their jobs completely. It’ll take a lot longer than one paycheck for those people to find jobs and gain financial stability again. I absolutely agree with the fact that a strike is unnecessary and greedy, but for those who don’t have any options... are you really willing to be one of the big bad guys that just say “Oh well. Pay rent or gtfo”? I think there should be rules in place for those who have legitimately lost income completely from this virus specifically, and a no-tolerance policy for the rest whom are trying to benefit unjustly.
The topic du jour is people refusing to pay their rent. They're not trying their best. They're not contacting their Landlord to negotiate a delayed payment or partial payments or bartering work for rent or anything else. They demand rent forgiveness with no consideration to how it affects the Landlord and no attempt to meet their obligation. And the majority of our country seems to support this kind of behavior.
I'm not insensitive to the fact people are laid off, some are sick, some have relatives that are sick, some just finished a bout of chemo and didn't get the chance to catch their breath before this thing hit, some just lost a husband, some just lost a limb to diabetes and can't get back to work, some just ran away from an abusive or drug-addicted spouse, etc. Bad stuff happens and we should be sensitive to those situations and try to help people that need it. But let's be honest and admit this is the minority. The majority of the people I've seen promoting a strike are fully functional humans that will recover 100% of their income or more and they have no excuse.
This is the problem with any government assistance program. When someone like myself questions why the program is spending so much money on able-bodied adults that are fully capable of caring for themselves (usually), people start marching out the worst-case examples and accusing me of being insensitive of all people in need, which is not true. It's almost impossible to have a philosophical discussion about facts.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7247 Reviews - Member since 2020 · 3 posts · 6 votes6y
Originally posted by @Matthew McNeil:
Originally posted by @Jeff S.:
Here it is @Matthew McNeil Portland's version:
https://pdxrentstrike.info/Wow, and they've already got a website up! Interesting what they said about landlords;
"Landlords have resources that will allow them to withstand this crisis better than any of us. We have to ensure our own survival, that our
families and those we care about. As with anything, your most important duty is to yourself."Most landlords operate at a loss or have very little income. Landlords are not getting enhanced unemployment!! This whole issue makes me sick.
Originally posted by @JD Martin:
Originally posted by @Matthew McNeil:
I’ve read a few articles reporting that the idea of Rent Strike(s) is gaining momentum. Apparently, advocates have moved past a request seeking deferred payments, or other options, to simply demanding that rent be waived altogether.
My concern is that regardless of whatever is offered in an attempt to explain that LLs have obligations as well, emotions are going to feed this issue and automatic unchallenged waivers of rent will be demanded by tenants on a massive national scale.
In other words, the logic used to counter the argument will not be tolerated. It will become an emotion-fed entrenched position by tenants.This is where you will find out how well your screening process works. The overwhelming majority of my tenants wouldn't participate in anything like this out of principle, which really doesn't change regardless of current economics. In other words, once a bum, always a bum.
I'm finding out the hard way. The tenant that I am less expected is giving my trouble, first demand a discount, and after I said no, told me she'll pay when her sba loan check arrive. Pretty sure she's just being a bxxxx as she's quite rich ... Not sure if she'll run after the pandemic is over or not.
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