Help with unethical plumber

Help with unethical plumber

Rental Property Investor · Northern Virginia · Member since 2019 · 793 posts · 620 votes

Our property manager hired a plumber to repair a dishwasher in one of our single family homes. This plumber had done jobs for the property manager in the past and was reasonably priced from what our property manager told us, so we decided to use them.

Our property manager contacted the plumber who says he was already in the area of our rental and stopped by to conduct an initial assessment. The tenant said he was there for 20 minutes tops. The plumbers notified our property manager that we needed a new dishwasher because it was not installed correctly.

The replacement dishwasher was ordered and delivered. The tenants took it out of the box for convenience for the plumber who was going to install it.  Our property manager called the plumber again to ask him to install the dishwasher. The plumber returned a couple days later and installed the unit in about an hour.

Our property manager asked him to consolidate everything into one bill and send over for payment. The plumber's assistant sent him a bill for $268 and the property manager was getting ready to pay, but then was notified a second bill was coming for $120. A detailed look at the bill shows the plumber charged $120 for an initial assessment and $268 ($175/hour for 1.5 hours of work); totaling almost $400. This is almost the equivalent of the price of the dishwasher.

Our property manager contacted the plumber about the two bills to express surprise at the cost and rate for labor to install the dishwasher. The plumber says because of Covid-19, he has bills and people to pay. (Note: I have no problems to support local business because this is a difficult time for everyone) When our property manager asked him about the installation time and rate, the plumber was dead silent and had nothing to say. Our property manager called him out on the actual installation time of 1 hour and overcharging us. He became defensive and said he had to pay bills. At this time, the plumber (now his wife joined the conversation) became irate and cussed out our property manager, even threatening bodily harm to him. They asked for our property manager's broker and he gave it to them. Our property manager and broker spoke with them and they were still unwilling to negotiate the price of the service. They sent our property manager a signed invoice that was signed by our tenant and not the property manager.

Our tenant thought he was just signing for the work being completed, but in the fine print it states:

"Payment of our invoice/contract is due upon completion of work. The authorization to proceed with the recommendation mentioned by [PLUMBER COMPANY] technician will be signed by the owner or authorized representative of the owner or the tenant of the premises at which the work will be done."

Looking back now, our property manager should have asked for a price quote BEFORE work started and to advise the tenant to not sign any work orders. This plumber had done work for our property manager in the past and has always been reasonable. They completed a 2-day job digging into a concrete wall, replacing plumbing, and patching for $1,000 just a few months earlier for our property manager. How is it possible a 1-hour dishwasher installation can cost almost half that?

My question to the group, is what, if any, option do we have?

Our property manager and broker have had multiple discussions with the plumber and his wife, and they are unwilling to lower their price citing the signed invoice. The plumber admitted lying on the invoice by overcharging for time worked. I want to support local business; however, I do not want to reward unethical behavior at the same.

If you've made it this far, thank you for your time and patience.  I look forward to your comments and advice.

Have a great day and stay safe!

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Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
6y

Hi AJ,

These guys sometimes charge an up-charge for late night work, etc...

Cut a check, and if you are unhappy with this plumber, use a different one next time.

Good Luck!

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  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y

    Hi AJ,

    These guys sometimes charge an up-charge for late night work, etc...

    Cut a check, and if you are unhappy with this plumber, use a different one next time.

    Good Luck!

  • Rockaway, NJ · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    It sounds like the biggest dispute is $120. My advice, pay it, and consider it your fee to learn who this plumber really is. Get a lien waiver signed and never use him again

  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Hello. Here's what I would do:

    1. Pay the plumber. 

    2. Write an appropriate, factual 1-star review about him on Yelp, Google, Yellow Pages, Angie's List, etc. 

    3. Tell your property manager you don't want that plumber to work on your property ever again. 

    But from the sound of it your PM won't be hiring him again as the plumber threatened your PM.

    I give props to your PM for fighting against the bill and having your best interest in mind. Some PMs would simply add a 10% surcharge on that $388 bill and shrug their shoulders when you questioned the high bill. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Northern Virginia · Member since 2019 · 793 posts · 620 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Scott Mac:

    Hi AJ,

    These guys sometimes charge an up-charge for late night work, etc...

    Cut a check, and if you are unhappy with this plumber, use a different one next time.

    Good Luck!

    Thank you very much for your advice!  

  • Rental Property Investor · Northern Virginia · Member since 2019 · 793 posts · 620 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Andrew B.:

    It sounds like the biggest dispute is $120. My advice, pay it, and consider it your fee to learn who this plumber really is. Get a lien waiver signed and never use him again

     
    Thank you very much for your advice! Yes, this is certainly a learning experience. Definitely won't be using him ever again.

  • Rental Property Investor · Northern Virginia · Member since 2019 · 793 posts · 620 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Karl B.:

    Hello. Here's what I would do:

    1. Pay the plumber. 

    2. Write an appropriate, factual 1-star review about him on Yelp, Google, Yellow Pages, Angie's List, etc. 

    3. Tell your property manager you don't want that plumber to work on your property ever again. 

    But from the sound of it your PM won't be hiring him again as the plumber threatened your PM.

    I give props to your PM for fighting against the bill and having your best interest in mind. Some PMs would simply add a 10% surcharge on that $388 bill and shrug their shoulders when you questioned the high bill. 


    Thank you very much for your advice! We are going to give him a 1-star review. Our PM wants to look at reporting him with the BBB or Labor Department.

  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    6y

    @AJ Hu what you can do now is realistically nothing. You pay the bill and use a different plumber going forward.

    Your PM messed up by not getting a quote beforehand. But think of it this way: you get the quote before hand, the plumber says 2 hours. It takes them an hour. You still pay for 2 hours.

    These guys mark up labor all the time, it’s not uncommon and in of its self isn’t immoral.

    Now getting irate and all that isn’t professional, but you not paying them also isn’t right.

    Plumbing quotes always cost a lot relative to the work (in 99 percent cases). It would cost 65-80 dollars to unclog a toilet.

    Here’s another story: I went on a service call (for a dishwasher) with a buddy of mine who fixes these things on the side sometimes (grew up doing it, family business etc).

    We get there, he looks at the dishwasher, figured out the part that is busted and then just makes up an amount for the service call. This stuff will vary a lot.

    Also when they buy that part that costs them 20 bucks it’ll cost you 60. You get the idea. That’s just how it works.

    Long story short, pay the bill and use a different plumber.

  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    6y

    @AJ Hu also is this local or do you own this long distance? If it’s long distance, this will happen a lot. Meaning you pay a lot for repairs. So I would adjust your expectations of this.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    I’m not sure it won’t make you feel better, but I promise this won’t be your last plumber issue/story. Once you find a good plumber, keep him... until he does something to put him in the bucket with all the others.

    Maybe I’m just jaded... but good luck!

  • Contractor · Bronx, NY · Member since 2020 · 27 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    @AJ Hu

    Not sure how things are done in your area , but in NYC , if you call a plumber out to assess, it’s a trip charge . When I was running property for a large company , trip charges were always $125 minimum . My maintenance crew consist of 2 guys with a truck , tools , etc . There’s no way I’m going to any site for free look . Every company has to have a billable hourly rate .

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y

    There is a lot you can do. The question is how much time do you wish to invest in this situation to save a hundred dollars. 

    The easiest thing is to refuse to pay the extra 1/2 hour that was overcharged. If the tenant says 1 hour of work, pay for that. Let the plumber sue you for the rest. This is likely what I would do. Plumber gets his inflated hourly rate for the time he actually worked, but nothing for his scam extra 1/2 hour. 

    You can not pay anything. See if they will negotiate after realizing that you're not going to pay. The plumber can try to put a lien on your property, but you can have that disputed in court. Let the plumber explain his new higher COVID pricing to the judge and let the judge determine if it is fair or illegal price gouging.

    Other than that, spend a little time posting reviews for the plumber. A bunch of one star reviews about overcharging time, inflating rates during COVID, threatening behavior, refusal to address concerns, etc will do more than cost the guy a hundred dollars. 

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    6y

    seriously? You are lucky to get someone to fix it at all during the quarantine. Id expect any profession to be charging premium pricing during this.

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    6y

    @Aaron W.

    There's actually a surprising amount of good information packed into this thread.

    I've gotta start with @Russell Brazil here. A look at your page indicates that you do long-distance investing in multiple states. I'm not sure where this is, but while here in Pennsylvania, our plumbing businesses remain open as essential, none of them will be doing cheap work for the next few months. The guys got to come to your property and expose himself to your tenant's germs, some of which might be COVID-19 viruses. He's not going to do it at a cut rate and if plumbers by their nature are keenly aware of public health issues.

    Have you ever installed a dishwasher? It really isn't that complicated. Does the guy deserve $388 for doing it? No. But that's very often the cost of convenient business OOS, as @Caleb Heimsoth indicated. As a less convenient, probably less certain alternative, did you think about or could you have used some kind of cheaper handyman service for this? You can do that in some areas, while in others you HAVE to have a locally-licensed plumber do the installation.

    Of course in the future you should get estimates up front, blah, blah, blah, but always be aware that, as @Mike McCarthy also indicated, once you find a plumber who will do good, timely work, you should pay a premium for his services and be happy about it. You WANT to be on such a plumber's go-list when you have a real problem. This baloney with the property manager disagreeing with the plumber's rate and all of you having team shouting matches with the plumber's wife -- this is all baby-talk baloney. I can't imagine that an experienced property manager wouldn't have talked to you about this already.

    I would pay the bill and move on.

  • Lorenzo WrightPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 105 posts · 121 votes
    6y

    $75 = 1.5 hours @ $50/hour (pretty common for a plumber)

    $46 = 80 miles travel (20 miles each way x 2) x $.58 the current govt rate

    $100 = two hours of drive time that employer is going to have to pay employee

    $27 = 175 x .153 = employer portion of fica, Medicare, unemployment etc

    $50 = misc. Overhead = insurance, licensing, office

    $50 profit and $52 slack total = $400.

    Is $400 a little steep, maybe. Is it totally ridiculous, nope. Everyone loves to bash on contractors, but have zero clues into what it actually takes to run a contracting co.

    P.s. it doesn't take a plumber to install a dishwasher. Do you pay your dentist to clean your teeth?

  • HVAC Tech · Fort Wayne, IN · Member since 2015 · 423 posts · 223 votes
    6y

    Whats the problem?

  • Rental Property Investor · Navarre, FL · Member since 2019 · 913 posts · 640 votes
    6y

    How can you not install a dishwasher correctly? To the point where the dishwasher needs to be replaced?

  • Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @AJ Hu

    Consider instead a 2 star review. Generally 5 star and 1 star are both full of useless drivel. You’ll likely get more reads with a 2 star review and if they’ve got a lot it isn’t going to impact the overall score anyway.

  • Real Estate Agent · Princeton, NJ · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @AJ Hu - eat it and set better processes in place. I got a dishwasher installed free by Costco last mile (dishwasher ss was $400) if I pulled out the first one and there was a plug for them to connect it to. On another time I paid $250 by credit card for an emergency plumber call out at 8pm when my house was flooding and he refused to turn off the house main unless I sent him another $150 and then promised him another $600 of repair work. (A shower handle came off and was spraying water free flow.) Fortunately my family member turned off my main and my handyman fixed the $600 repair for $200 plus parts the next day.

  • Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 451 posts · 369 votes
    6y

    Another thought, for anything appliance related, I use a local appliance retailer and they quote the install as a fixed line-item on your bill. For dishwashers the price to deliver, install & take away the old dishwasher is $150. Local retailers live & die based on their reputation & service, otherwise everyone would get their appliances at Best Buy / Home Depot.

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    6y

    Your bill seems very reasonable compared to my recent plumbing experience.  

    I had a single copper elbow that needed to be soldered in a crawl space.  First plumber was already on site and quoted $680 to solder the elbow.   I was already not happy with that plumbing company  but they pretty much guaranteed that I will never use them again.   I expecter it would take less than an hour to do the job unless something goes wrong in which case it should take less than 2 hours.   Plumbing rate locally is between $80 and $120 per hour.  I figured no more than $150 for the job.   I was not going to pay $680. 

    I called another plumber that we had used 3 times previously.  First time happy, 2nd time satisfied, 3rd time acceptable.   He quoted us $400.  I paid it as I was not going to get a 3rd quote with an on-going leak. 

    However, I am in search of a good plumber with fair prices.  I am OK with $120/hour if the time estimate is reasonable.  To me reasonable is expected going right time plus 25% for the times when the unexpected occur.  For the elbow this would have been $120+ $30
    = $150.  I would even be fine if the plumber indicated a 50% Corona premium as long as he was up front and accurate to the hour estimate so with Corona premium $225 for what should be an hour task.  

    I want the honest plumber to make an acceptable living.  My issue is the local plumbers are significantly over charging.  Especially for items like leaks.  

    Also there are many Local plumbing coMpanies that have a low rate for removing clogs.  However when they get to the unit they always find something to charge extra for or are unable to unclog the sewer.  It is a sham. 

    My hope is to find a reasonable honest plumber.  I think this is a wish of many landlords and property managers. 

    Good luck with your charging issue.  

  • Member since 2020 · 16 posts · 3 votes
    6y

    @AJ Hu always get an estimate before work starts. Chances are you would have paid 200 instead of 400 if you got the estimate first...just pay and be done with it. The court dates, months of stress, and all that fighting and driving back and forth isn’t gonna be worth 100 bucks at the end of the day.

    Reading some people say it’s reasonable.. I don’t buy that. I’m surprised that a professional plumber even took one hour to do it. I’ve done it in 25 minutes with little to no experience. You definitely got ripped off, but these kinds of things are just part of the business of landlording..100 dollars for a lesson learned is an extremely great price. Just pay it and be done with him

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    Just to add something to think about - just because someone writes something in a contract or on an invoice, doesn't make it legal.

    For instance, I tell tenants who complain about their landlords about something that they can/can't do because it's in their lease - if the lease had a clause that said you have to chop off your left leg if you are ever late paying your rent, would you do it?  Just because something is written in a way that sounds official, doesn't make it legal.

    And....to make a long story longer....just because the plumber says a tenant signature means the PM or owner has to pay whatever he writes on the invoice - doesn't make it legal or binding.  A tenant is not an owner or the owner's agent/representative.  So, nice try, plumber.  

    So, if you wanted to fight him, you could do so on that basis.  Your tenant is not your "agent."  That's the term to use.  Your tenant does not have the legal authority to bind you to any contractual agreements, without your permission.

  • Naperville, IL · Member since 2018 · 330 posts · 357 votes
    6y

    My contractor of several years pulled a similar stunt.  We had him over to replace a ceiling fan in a stairwell  and replace a laundry sink which is just gross.  Husband put the fan together except for the blades.   C said $100 for the fan and $200 for the sink.  Did the fan,  he said "too many people put the blades on beforehand and then I have to take them off to install."   Took 35 minutes from the time he rang the doorbell.  Then spent another five inspecting the sink and said it was complicated,  $800.  I immediately said "nope, I'll live with it and return the new one".  He dropped his price to $600 and I still said no.  Husband said it is a bit complicated plumbing wise.  I'll just live with the gross one.  (Been used to dump paint/grout by previous owners and it's probably original to the 40 year old townhome.).  THEN he said $150 for the fan "because I came here to earn more than $100".  Even after all the discussion he has still only been there 48 minutes.  My husband said "I am NOT paying you over $100 for under an hour's work."  C said "It wasn't put together like you claimed!"  This is AFTER saying good we didn't put the blades on.... he then said "Don't expect me to answer the phone next time you call".  I said "We'll risk it".  I have literally paid this guy over $125K in the last 5 years.....IF he calls and apologizes I will give him another chance,  in the meantime I am collecting numbers of other contractors.....

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2019 · 60 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @AJ Hu Sounds like $120 lesson. I’d say take it as a loss on move forward and find another plumber for future work. He earned $120 this time but lost more money from potential future business.

  • Rental Property Investor · Ithaca, NY · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @AJ Hu

    Give him the money, then tell everyone you know he’s over charging. Spread the word, it’s more effective than trying to fight someone over 400 dollars.

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