Help with unethical plumber

Help with unethical plumber

Rental Property Investor · Northern Virginia · Member since 2019 · 793 posts · 620 votes

Our property manager hired a plumber to repair a dishwasher in one of our single family homes. This plumber had done jobs for the property manager in the past and was reasonably priced from what our property manager told us, so we decided to use them.

Our property manager contacted the plumber who says he was already in the area of our rental and stopped by to conduct an initial assessment. The tenant said he was there for 20 minutes tops. The plumbers notified our property manager that we needed a new dishwasher because it was not installed correctly.

The replacement dishwasher was ordered and delivered. The tenants took it out of the box for convenience for the plumber who was going to install it.  Our property manager called the plumber again to ask him to install the dishwasher. The plumber returned a couple days later and installed the unit in about an hour.

Our property manager asked him to consolidate everything into one bill and send over for payment. The plumber's assistant sent him a bill for $268 and the property manager was getting ready to pay, but then was notified a second bill was coming for $120. A detailed look at the bill shows the plumber charged $120 for an initial assessment and $268 ($175/hour for 1.5 hours of work); totaling almost $400. This is almost the equivalent of the price of the dishwasher.

Our property manager contacted the plumber about the two bills to express surprise at the cost and rate for labor to install the dishwasher. The plumber says because of Covid-19, he has bills and people to pay. (Note: I have no problems to support local business because this is a difficult time for everyone) When our property manager asked him about the installation time and rate, the plumber was dead silent and had nothing to say. Our property manager called him out on the actual installation time of 1 hour and overcharging us. He became defensive and said he had to pay bills. At this time, the plumber (now his wife joined the conversation) became irate and cussed out our property manager, even threatening bodily harm to him. They asked for our property manager's broker and he gave it to them. Our property manager and broker spoke with them and they were still unwilling to negotiate the price of the service. They sent our property manager a signed invoice that was signed by our tenant and not the property manager.

Our tenant thought he was just signing for the work being completed, but in the fine print it states:

"Payment of our invoice/contract is due upon completion of work. The authorization to proceed with the recommendation mentioned by [PLUMBER COMPANY] technician will be signed by the owner or authorized representative of the owner or the tenant of the premises at which the work will be done."

Looking back now, our property manager should have asked for a price quote BEFORE work started and to advise the tenant to not sign any work orders. This plumber had done work for our property manager in the past and has always been reasonable. They completed a 2-day job digging into a concrete wall, replacing plumbing, and patching for $1,000 just a few months earlier for our property manager. How is it possible a 1-hour dishwasher installation can cost almost half that?

My question to the group, is what, if any, option do we have?

Our property manager and broker have had multiple discussions with the plumber and his wife, and they are unwilling to lower their price citing the signed invoice. The plumber admitted lying on the invoice by overcharging for time worked. I want to support local business; however, I do not want to reward unethical behavior at the same.

If you've made it this far, thank you for your time and patience.  I look forward to your comments and advice.

Have a great day and stay safe!

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Most Popular Reply

Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
6y

Hi AJ,

These guys sometimes charge an up-charge for late night work, etc...

Cut a check, and if you are unhappy with this plumber, use a different one next time.

Good Luck!

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48 Replies

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  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    6y
  • Rental Property Investor · Woodstock, GA · Member since 2017 · 517 posts · 772 votes
    6y

    :) unfortunately contractor crap is part of the biz.

    Just paid $200 for a handyman (who I used for a big 3k job 2 weeks ago) to install a dishwasher.

    He does it but I'm not there when he finishes (at a rental).

    He sends me a pic, looks good.

    Next day, I go check, the side of dishwasher  is a little rough, and the corner catches on the cabinet.

    I call him asking if any problems installing.

    He says it went in great, no issues. "Smooth as butter".

    I show him the picture below.(through text)

    He shrugs and says "Maybe someone got in the house and messed with it."

    The house is vacant. No, someone did not break in mess with the dishwasher,  touch nothing else and leave.

    Now trying to figure out how to bend steel lol.

    I just said "Fine, I believe you." And won't hire him again.

  • Rental Property Investor · Amityville, NY · Member since 2018 · 351 posts · 441 votes
    6y

    Not sure where you are located but that price for 2 trips seems fair.

    You are always going to pay a trip fee w most competent service businesses.

    It sounds from his over reacting that he is stressed out and possibly going through some tough times himself. Stating "I have Bill's to pay!" is no reason to raise prices and exaggerate labor time. The fact that the wife got involved and people are threatening each other tells me this plumber is FAR from professiona.

    If his prices went up from all the other jobs he did for the PM and he didnt tell anyone then that's his problem. If I use someone over and over and their price or rate was "x" every time and then recieve a new bill and rate went up and I wasnt informed then that's going to be a problem for them. Either we are negotiating or we are not working together in the future.

    I would explain to him that you are willing to pay the usual rate for the actual time spent on install and on the next project you want a quote up front to compare against the other bids you will be getting.

  • Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Aaron W. I wouldn’t use the guy more for his unprofessional reaction more than what he charged. Things are going to cost more these days because of the situation. You are basically asking the guy to install a dishwasher in an apartment full of people he doesn’t know when this virus is going around. A dishwasher isn’t an emergency. Probably should have waited until this passes to have it installed and it would have been cheaper to do so. 

    On a side note, good thing you have a PM in general that questions bills from vendors they use all the time. Most just pay it because they don’t want to ruin the relationship with the vendor. 

  • Investor · Hamilton, VA · Member since 2017 · 14 posts · 10 votes
    6y

    This is where it pays to scale up and have your own handyman for jobs. My fulltime handyman would have checked the dishwasher and went and picked up a new one that day and installed for no more then 100. GET BIG!!

  • Rental Property Investor · Boston, Massachusetts (MA) · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @AJ Hu reaction sounds over the top and that’s bad, but two sides and all that.

    I can’t get outraged over the extra half hour and the charge for the trip though. LOTS of people have service call minimums of 1 or 2 hours.

    And they should. Think about it “it only took him 35 min and he charged me for an hour” well, he couldn’t book a job that would have paid him for 1,2,3 hours around that apt so booking so part of it is charging for the opportunity cost of doing the work.

    125 for an inspection visit and 2 hours for the service seems on the high side of fair. In Boston you actually have to pay his kids tuition for a semester :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Northern Virginia · Member since 2019 · 793 posts · 620 votes
    6y

    Thank you everyone for the great discussion and thoughts. It confirmed to us what we need to do. It could have been worse and we could be charged a lot more than the extra couple hundred dollars. It's always a learning experience owning properties out of state and never a dull moment. We will be having a discussion with our property manager that they should have gotten a price quote before the work began no matter if they had been reasonable in the past with their work and pricing. In the end, I am paying my property manager to take care of my properties and to represent us since we are not there physically to take care of things.

    Thanks again everyone.  Have a great day and stay safe!

  • Contractor · Hopatcong, NJ · Member since 2020 · 24 posts · 14 votes
    6y

    @Nancy P.

    To be fair...many service businesses have a minimum charge or a service call fee.

  • Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL 60605 · Member since 2017 · 7 posts · 3 votes
    6y

    @AJ Hu

    Hi AJ

    I agree with a couple posts that it doesn't take a plumber to install a dw. Handyman services charge around $85.00/ hour plus materials and have insurance in the event of a issue for 30 days.

    We're all under stress these days so you can probably cut the plumber (and his wife) some slack. If your PM has established a good working relationship with their service people,

    sometimes they make money on you and you make money on them. It's all part of establishing a fair working relationship. It all evens out in the end on balence.

  • Member since 2020 · 3 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    I agree with Scott Mac! Just pay and get another one! 

  • WorldWide · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Dan H.:

    My hope is to find a reasonable honest plumber.  I think this is a wish of many landlords and property managers. 

    Where can we get this petition started? lol 

    Haven't really had, what I would consider, a good plumbing experience either paying somebody or doing the work myself. What I thought was going to do a simple diy on my well, turned into almost a whole weekend ordeal that involved cutting rusted together fittings and sourcing new ones that would spring a leak (thanks for "great" lowes quality on their 1" barb fittings from china...) - whose great idea was it to create pipe threads that need either tape or pipe dope to actually seal? lol The well is sitting in a tight place as well, so i felt like contortionist for a weekend. Was this close to quitting and calling somebody up, so I can relax and drink beer on the couch instead, but a good pipe wrench and better quality fittings (brass) did the job. Plumbing is not complicated, it's just something will always not go as you planned (similar to working on cars), and if you don't have the necessary tools, will make your life complicated. Now, let's get back to that petition.

    P.S. $175/hr is an outrageous rate for a plumber, quarantine or not. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Closter, NJ · Member since 2015 · 884 posts · 722 votes
    6y

    Your Property Manager called the Plumber out for two (2) service calls. Just pay the bills. Did you really expect the Plumber to come to the property and troubleshoot "for free?" And for what its worth, licensed master plumbers here in Bergen County NJ charge anywhere from $145/hour to $185/hour, including Travel Time, plus parts and Labor - and if you called the plumber out in the evening or weekend, you will pay overtime (time-and-a-half or double-time). The plumber was NOT unethical.

  • Investor · Delafield, WI · Member since 2014 · 102 posts · 73 votes
    6y

    I try to never us a plumber. I use a good handyman for most stuff. For clogged drains I use certain drain cleaning companies and never a plumbing contractor. I only use a plumber where I must get a permit. My say is "licence plumber = licence to steal"  But good thing he taught you what he is all about on a small job.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    6y

    All service calls should be triaged.  Ask a couple extra questions of the tenants to get a better idea of what exactly is wrong.  This has saved me tens of thousands. What exactly was wrong with the dishwasher? 'Bad install's a bs diagnosis. 

    Going directly to a licensed professional each time a tenant calls is one of my 2 biggest resistances to hiring a PM. The other is filling/lease-up fee method.  Spread it out.

    Not usually worth it to troubleshoot an old appliance. Order a new one and have installed by them, especially if OOS. Absolutely no need for a full plumber to swap a dishwasher. Learn and carry on. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Stillwater, OK · Member since 2019 · 8 posts · 1 vote
    6y

    @AJ Hu I empathize with your situation. Being self employed for 20 years, I've been on both sides of the fence. It sounds like due diligence and communication could have been better on both sides. I've learned the hard way to get and give a quote concerning business matters. Not judging at all, like I said, I've been there. Call it cheap tuition and move on. Best of luck!

  • Member since 2020 · 18 posts · 8 votes
    6y

    @AJ Hu

    You are probably getting the best advise from everyone by just paying it, review them of review sites, and never use them again.

    Those people should be avoided and paid to actually avoid them. Don’t lower yourself to their level. Think above and beyond them. Your pretty much paying them to never do a job again consider it a bonus. If you don’t pay, lawyer fees, waste of time, peace of mind, and etc. Its not worth it at the end.

    Regarding the time, mabey he is considering driving there. Nevertheless what ever their math is, consider them not business minded people and avoid them next time.

  • Rental Property Investor · Las Cruces, NM · Member since 2017 · 65 posts · 38 votes
    6y

    That sux. I always buy appliances from places like home depot, lowes etc.. They usually install and haul away for free

  • Michael HaasBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Redmond, 🌧️ Seattle Investor-Agent | 🤑 Helped 400+ Clients Invest in Real Estate | 🏘️ Owns 23 WA Rentals & Airbnbs | 🏗️ Built 5 DADU's | 📈 You Can Do It Too · Member since 2016 · 724 posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    The real question here is why your PM company is paying a plumber to install a dishwasher. This is handyman stuff, and they should have a handyman that charges less than $40 an hour on their list of subs. 

    That's great that they disputed the bill on your behalf, but it doesn't sound like they are doing their job as well as they could. You could call a plumber off yelp for $100+ an hour and give them a door code if you needed to, it'd take 1 minute of your time. You pay them for their expertise in getting honest and reasonably priced labor for your rentals, and sounds like this guy is neither.

    HouseHack Seattle | Michael Haas & Team572 Reviews
  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Victor S.:
    Originally posted by @Dan H.:

    My hope is to find a reasonable honest plumber.  I think this is a wish of many landlords and property managers. 

    Where can we get this petition started? lol 

    Haven't really had, what I would consider, a good plumbing experience either paying somebody or doing the work myself. What I thought was going to do a simple diy on my well, turned into almost a whole weekend ordeal that involved cutting rusted together fittings and sourcing new ones that would spring a leak (thanks for "great" lowes quality on their 1" barb fittings from china...) - whose great idea was it to create pipe threads that need either tape or pipe dope to actually seal? lol The well is sitting in a tight place as well, so i felt like contortionist for a weekend. Was this close to quitting and calling somebody up, so I can relax and drink beer on the couch instead, but a good pipe wrench and better quality fittings (brass) did the job. Plumbing is not complicated, it's just something will always not go as you planned (similar to working on cars), and if you don't have the necessary tools, will make your life complicated. Now, let's get back to that petition.

    P.S. $175/hr is an outrageous rate for a plumber, quarantine or not. 

     >P.S. $175/hr is an outrageous rate for a plumber, quarantine or not.

    I do not disagree, but seeing I ended up paying around $400/hour having gotten 2 quotes it seems very reasonable.   So my bar for a plumber may only be ankle high, but I am not able to find even that. 

    We had the same plumber that was our first to call plumber for 8 years.  Within a couple of months he failed to fix a sink leak in 2 tries and refused to go look at it again even though he charged us to fix the leak that he never fixed.   He blames the sink.  Really!  then he quoted us for a sewer pipe swap (iron to ABS) and jetting the iron sewer not swapped out that was in foundation a price that seemed ok ($1k for ~20’ already exposed Cast iron to ABS with 2 clean outs and jetting, his estimate was 4.5 hours (minimum) if things went well. I understand on these fixed price quotes they must include something potentially going wrong so price seemed ok).   When he did the job he left the cast iron pipe and did not jet it.  He indicated he would have to charge to come out to jet it even though he did not deny that the original quote included the jetting that he did not do (and I never got an explanation why He did not do it when he was there so I suspect it was only because it was late).   I had my teenage boy crew haul away the old pipes so that was cheap to address but an inconvenience.   I cannot use that plumber anymore because of this even if he is cheaper and better than the Yahoos I have tried since no longer using him.   It is as much the point as the cost.  He has to warrant his work and he has to do the work he charges for.  Charging the full price without jetting or hauling away the old pipe is not acceptable even if his price was very fair compared to the Yahoos I have used since no longer using him.  He literally had likely done over $50k of work for us in the 8 years including multiple slab leaks, multiple sewer swaps, maybe 8 water heater swaps, countless clogged sewers, etc.  he should have indicated it was late (or whatever reason he did not jet) and that he would fit the jetting in that week.  I paid another plumber $400 for the jetting the same sewer (basically paid for the same job twice).   

  • Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2020 · 562 posts · 554 votes
    6y

    @AJ Hu

    First things first. Always get the quote up front. It is hard to argue with the bill after the fact. I would talk to your property manager about that as well. It is lazy of them to just let someone go to your property without knowing the costs, so they have some culpability too. Checking out and replacing a dishwasher is not rocket science and should be easy enough to quote sight unseen.

  • Portland, ME · Member since 2012 · 616 posts · 550 votes
    6y

    I've noticed over the years that the first time I hire someone they do a great job, timely, fair price, etc.  As time goes on and I hire them more often, they stop showing up, quality goes down, prices go up.  They take me for granted even though I always pay quickly.  From reading these comments, it looks like I'm not alone.

    I guess it's like how I don't do my hair and make-up for my husband during quarantine, taking people for granted is human nature!

  • Naperville, IL · Member since 2018 · 330 posts · 357 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Amy A.:

    I've noticed over the years that the first time I hire someone they do a great job, timely, fair price, etc.  As time goes on and I hire them more often, they stop showing up, quality goes down, prices go up.  They take me for granted even though I always pay quickly.  From reading these comments, it looks like I'm not alone.

    I guess it's like how I don't do my hair and make-up for my husband during quarantine, taking people for granted is human nature!

    Exactly this!

  • Property Manager · NJ · Member since 2019 · 129 posts · 37 votes
    6y

    @Aaron W. the first step is to talk to your property manager regarding processes. As PM's we send our clients an email every time there is a problem and advise them the issue will be looked into one of our vendors. Depending on the issue we send a licensed vendor (Plumber, electrician, etc) or a handyman. In this case, I don't think a licensed plumber is needed for a dishwasher. An appliance company is more experienced and also they tend to credit the first visit's charge fee if you buy any appliances with them and they have to come back a second time.

    We also order our appliances from Home Depot or Lowes, both have the installation of any appliance and removal of the old appliance for less than $100.

    The price for the plumber is a little high but not crazy, especially in this Covid19 environment. 

    I hope this helps and have a great day! :)

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