Why Self Managing Investment Properties is CRAZY

Why Self Managing Investment Properties is CRAZY

Specialist · Wichita, KS · Member since 2020 · 7 posts · 48 votes

One funny thing about people is that while we are almost always well intentioned, we seem to do a lot of things that are just plain crazy. I, for example, still prefer to eat my oranges by dissecting each into their individual wedges, peeling back the skin on each wedge, and delicately crumbling each skinned wedge into the tiny teardrop pods that make up an orange. Is it crazy? I already know the answer, but, I'll probably still eat my next orange this way. 

Here is another example that I was luckily able to break free from - self managing my rental portfolio. Now that I'm on the flip side of this crazy behavior I want to lay out why this is crazier than my orange dissection ritual. 

To begin to frame things, investors can be categorized into three buckets:  

Bucket #1 - Those that hire a professional property management company

Bucket #2 - Those that self manage and love doing the work

Bucket #3 - Those that self manage and don't love the work

For those of you in Bucket #1 - Congratulations! I'm guessing you will run the world someday. 

For those of you in Bucket #2 - Really? Do you LOVE doing this work? Could it really be that you LOVE complete control instead? If you are sure that it's not a control issue or trust issue then by all means, manage away! I suspect this group is pretty small.

For those of you in Bucket #3 - I'm writing this article for you. Why? Because I used to be you! I didn't hate managing my properties (outside of a few late evening maintenance calls), but I definitely did not enjoy managing them either. I convinced myself that it was worthwhile because I was saving money doing it myself. And heck - I was even fairly qualified for the work. I could do most of the maintenance, I could turn a property in a few months time, and most tenants paid on time. The basic tasks were getting completed. So what's so CRAZY about this? Let me rephrase the reality of the situation...

The basic tasks were getting completed ------> Only the most basic of tasks were eventually getting completed. 

If we break down the more realistic statement we can see exactly why this behavior is CRAZY. 

"Only the most basic tasks"

I thought that completing maintenance requests, filling the property with tenants that passed a background check, and keeping an excel-based tenant ledger were enough. This list "checked the box" in my mind but didn't even begin to address the components of a successful rental portfolio. As a basic comparison, the below list is what I expect from my professional management company. 

Basic maintenance requests completed within 5 days, emergency maintenance requests completed within 2 days, preventative maintenance work twice a year, tenant-caused maintenance billed back to tenant, periodic inspections to make sure that the tenant is reporting necessary maintenance items, late fees collected, immediate 30 day notices posted, pet fees monitored and collected, move in inspections, move out inspections, move out damages charged to tenant, advanced notice on capital repair items, 30 day move out notices communicated, pre-leasing of property, tenant stay incentives, gutters cleaned, annual rent rate analysis, turns completed in 30 days, background checks on all occupants over 18, prior landlord references, co-signers on leases, direct deposit funds, monthly summary statements, online vacancy postings, post-eviction collections...

That in a nutshell is the different between managing a property and managing a property well. 

"were eventually getting completed"

Time is money. Just think for a second how much money is generated from decreasing vacancy rates from 15% to 8%. This alone will pay for professional management fees. How much money is going to be saved over time from having gutters clean out? How much better is tenant satisfaction (and average duration) if they get clear and immediate response to their maintenance requests? The benefits of timeliness are as real as the cash in your wallet. Every time you delay your property management responsibilities you are deteriorating your investment returns.

This is my best attempt to logically coerce you away from this CRAZY behavior.  If you are not already convinced to the point of taking action then I will try one last plea to your emotional side. Please, set aside your reservations, open up an additional browser tab, and begin researching for the best management company in your area. Your future self will embrace you with a warm hug. 

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Investor · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 743 posts · 927 votes
6y

@Joey Copper

I self manage.  Why would I "give" away 40-50% of my profits for someone to do what I can do very efficiently myself.  No one will care about my property/cash flow as much as me.  


I'm not saying property management is bad- it's just expensive.  It's great for some people and just an unneeded expense for others.  An example is-what does it cost a mgmt. company if the owner loses a month of rent because there is a vacancy?   Nothing-  What incentive does the owner have in renting it themselves to insure it gets rented-A LOT.   Who can tell a better story about a property- a management company with no financial stake or the owner who has their livelihood tied up in it?  


If I take an example of a small landlord with 5 duplex/triplexes and $20,000/month in rent.  At 8%, the management co takes $1600/month- That might be or 40-50% of their profit-I had a full time job and had 5 buildings.  

The post is more of a salesmanship post and does a good job trying to convince people they should hire a management company.  I'd advocate the best way to learn the business and optimize profit is to self manage.   

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Property Manager · Lindenhurst, IL · Member since 2016 · 854 posts · 506 votes
    6y

    It's sad to hear so many people had so many bad experiences with property management companies. I had my own bad experience, so I understand. When it comes to self-managing vs hiring a property manager, to me, it boils down to 3 questions. 

    Do I like property management? 

    Do I have the knowledge to manage and will continue to educate myself? 

    Do I have time to manage tenants and properties?

    If the answers are yes to all of the above, then I self-manage. At the same time, for example, I manage for this owner who lives maybe one hour away from this particular property, but he hires me to manage it because he doesn't like managing properties, doesn't have the knowledge or desire to learn, and he doesn't have time to manage. I don't see anything wrong with him hiring a property management company for his one rental property.

    For those who say something along the line of "Nobody can manage better than me," I would challenge that. Maybe that is true in your particular area if there's a limited number of property management companies available in your area, and they are all bad. Or it may be true at least initially when you know more about your tenants/properties. But once a good property management company gets to know your tenants/properties, there should be no reason why they can't do as well as you. "But that's not their properties, so they won't take good care of them." Well, any good landscaper will do a better job taking care of my yard than me. Good cooks will cook better than me. Good mechanics will do a better job than me fixing my car, etc. But a good property management company will be worse than me?

    Finally, for those who want to hire a property management company and want it to do "my way," I want to present a different viewpoint. Personally, if I call a property management company, and it asks me exactly how I want them to run their business, I will NOT hire them. They should tell me how they run their business, and I decide at that point if I hire the company. Just like any business, property management companies do think about making money. That doesn't automatically mean they screw owners. It means that they can't be successful by trying to tailor their business owner by owner. If someone wants a property management company to run "my way," the best option is to start his own company, and have someone run it "my way." Think about it, do you ask your applicants how they want you to manage your rental properties? Or do you tell them, "this is how we run (with maybe a few options,)" and the applicants can decide if they apply or not?

    Personally, I do self-manage as of now (except those properties that are too far) as I like property management, I have the property management knowledge, and I have time.

  • Real Estate Broker · Kansas City Metro · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Bob B.:

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion based on their own experiences.

    I only have 8 properties, they are close by and self manage them.  I had one late rent payment last year and 0 turn over.  My tenants have my cell number and in 18 years have never had a call about a clogged toilet.  I have only had one call late at night about a water issue and I'm glad he called.  My tenants stay on average 5-6 years and most are neat freaks.  I don't always but have had several move in-outs within 24 hours.  The last turn over I had was in 2018 with an 8 year tenant that moved out of state and they left the property in better shape than when they moved in.  I'm too cheap to pay someone to do what I think I'm pretty good at.  If I was a new LL, or my properties were OOS it might be money well spent.   When I get too old to self manage them, I'll sell them.

     Everyone has a strategy and a goal. Self management takes time but you get more money and more headaches for some. PM you make less money. But if you have a great PM, you can work out incentives. Hope that helps!

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Maybe you just suck at being a landlord.  That's ok.  I sucked at it too.  I was too nice.  I was too nice to the point the local property tax assessor told me I was too nice.  When you suck at something so bad by being too nice to the point a local government official notices, it's time to reassess yourself.  I sold it all and got out before I lost it all from being too nice.  I figure it's because I was doing residential and I couldn't deal with threatening people with homelessness.  Whatever, but self management there will never work for me and I know not to do it.  I won't touch it again unless I'm flipping only or it's self storage.  You can't cry to me that you have so much stuff and can't pay your rent.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Steve K.:

    Make room for me in all 3 of your "buckets". I have a PM for some of my properties (the far away, class C ones) and not others (the closer, Class A ones). Sometimes I enjoy the work, other times I don't. Sometimes hiring a PM is worth it, other times not. Sadly, most PM's are terrible, some are straight-up criminals, and only a very small percentage are any good. Bad management kills a lot of investment properties. Like @Jill F. I look at a lot of buildings. The ones in the worst condition are typically run by "professional" PM's (although not always, and it may not always be the manager's fault if the the owner doesn't want to pay for repairs or keep up with maintenance). 

    For me, the ability to put some sweat-equity into a property, fix it up myself, improve living conditions, increase rents, add value is what separates real estate from other investment vehicles. I only turn properties over to my PM once they're stabilized and they have little chance of screwing it up. I would never expect a PM to manage a property as well as I would as the owner. 

    In my mind this is property specific dependent..  lower tear high touch C D class and probably most of B.. and you dont live there then management is probably a necessity.. Solid A class  my experience is self management is simple..  Hire a RE broker to do your placement for you and pay them a fee..  ( my Daughter in Vegas is a realtor and started her career in sales doing lease ups which led to a ton of business for her).. then have a great handy man on speed dial for any thing that comes up.. and your all set.

    If its high touch heavy management C class etc.. and you dont live there then I think you need PM that can handle that asset class/tenant base.

    So I had both a bunch of C D in South Jackson MS and 13 brand new constructions in Madison county MS.. I managed Madison in house the C D we have to hire someone else we would get our clocked cleaned worse than what happens normally with that asset.

    I think the mom and pop local who run their own D C B class and do it hands on are the most profitable landlords out there.. And its their JOB they get a enough of those units and its simply what they do for a living.. you learn to love it or you sell and do something else.

  • Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Steve K.:

    Make room for me in all 3 of your "buckets". I have a PM for some of my properties (the far away, class C ones) and not others (the closer, Class A ones). Sometimes I enjoy the work, other times I don't. Sometimes hiring a PM is worth it, other times not. Sadly, most PM's are terrible, some are straight-up criminals, and only a very small percentage are any good. Bad management kills a lot of investment properties. Like @Jill F. I look at a lot of buildings. The ones in the worst condition are typically run by "professional" PM's (although not always, and it may not always be the manager's fault if the the owner doesn't want to pay for repairs or keep up with maintenance). 

    For me, the ability to put some sweat-equity into a property, fix it up myself, improve living conditions, increase rents, add value is what separates real estate from other investment vehicles. I only turn properties over to my PM once they're stabilized and they have little chance of screwing it up. I would never expect a PM to manage a property as well as I would as the owner. 

    ...

    I think the mom and pop local who run their own D C B class and do it hands on are the most profitable landlords out there.. And its their JOB they get a enough of those units and its simply what they do for a living.. you learn to love it or you sell and do something else.
     

    Exactly, Jay! And I do love it! it's a part-time, job where I set my own hours, I enjoy my tenants, I have a great maintenance team and nicely maintained apartments, so I can take extended vacations. I don't require or want a completely "passive" investment; That's part of what I like about landlording. You actually can influence how well (or poorly) your "investments" do!

  • Real Estate Agent · San DIego · Member since 2019 · 177 posts · 185 votes
    6y

    I don't necessarily "Love" property management, but, as owner/operator of 10 rentals all located within 30 minutes of my home,  it's my job and I strive to do it well. 

     To echo what's been written above, nobody is going to care as much about my money as I do.  These are our investments, our retirement plan, and our wealth building path.  A property manager gets paid for a bad job or good one, and it might be a while until I know which one.  Mostly, good homes with good tenants are on autopilot.  We have Class A houses at a low rent.  The well screened tenants usually stay for years.  The house is sound and doesn't need much, the tenants pay on time and don't need much.  Barring turnover, most of our properties need less than one hour a month, mostly via telephone communication, but occasionally, a repair here or there.  There's just not that much to do.   If you keep your turnover to a minimum, the demand on your time isn't high.  I would say 10-20 hours a year for most of our places.  In cost per hour, it's hard to want to outsource that.  

     A vacancy is a different animal altogether...it's time consuming and expensive.   This is the important juncture to get right. No, I don't love it, but it's crucial to my operation and business success.  I need to get the place in good shape and find a great tenant.  This means spending time and money on  coordination, move out inspections, clean and prep, rehab or recarpet when necessary, advertising photos, advertise, screen prospects, show,  meet new tenants, etc etc etc.  This is our time to go in and do any deferred maintenance on the unit.  Our last vacancy got new fencing and new water conserving landscaping.   A vacancy usually costs us $1000-5000, depending on what's needed and how long it's vacant.   The new tenants always find little issues that have not been noticed and addressed, such as door or window that won't properly latch, a sticky lock,  or a plug that doesn't work.  

    With this being the dynamic, keeping our existing good tenants happy is a priority.  Tenants that are nickel and dimed with fees don't feel valued.  There's a bazillion ways to piss off a tenant and erode trust.   I think I can keep open lines of communication and goodwill with my clients, the tenants, better than if I outsourced it. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Rochester, MN · Member since 2017 · 224 posts · 323 votes
    6y

    @Joey Copper

    My sensei self manages 1,100 units and seems to be doing ok.

  • Joseph ODonovanPro Member
    Property Manager · Ridley, PA · Member since 2017 · 427 posts · 449 votes
    6y

    @Joey Copper This sounds like an infomercial script

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2019 · 34 posts · 19 votes
    6y

    @Jill F.

    This is precisely my plan when I get enough units to hire someone full time. For now, I’ll do it myself, but as soon as I get enough units to provide someone a livable salary, then I’m going to hire someone and they will report directly to me.

  • Rental Property Investor · Canton, OH · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Joey Copper

    Self manage does always mean you're doing the work. I self manage 23 doors and farm out 99% of the work. I enjoy the systems I have in place as well as the extra cash flow this allows me to realize. Heck, some of the happiest investors I know in my area (with all kinds of wealth) self manage anywhere from 40-250 properties.

    To each their own, but making a blanket statement saying self managing is crazy, is just not always true.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Joey Copper

    Self manage does always mean you're doing the work. I self manage 23 doors and farm out 99% of the work. I enjoy the systems I have in place as well as the extra cash flow this allows me to realize. Heck, some of the happiest investors I know in my area (with all kinds of wealth) self manage anywhere from 40-250 properties.

    To each their own, but making a blanket statement saying self managing is crazy, is just not always true.

    I don't know about all states however I know out here on the left coast I think its an apartment of 40 Plus units by law you must have an on site manager.  and the PM's manage said manager.. or the owner does.

  • Rental Property Investor · Canton, OH · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Jay Hinrichs

    That's very interesting it's required. I can't comment on my state as I don't fall into that bucket :( nor does anyone I know have 40+ doors in a multi family unit. I'll have to research that though, so I appreciate the "food for thought." I'm always amazed at how laws and regs vary so much from state-to-state.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jill F.:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Steve K.:

    Make room for me in all 3 of your "buckets". I have a PM for some of my properties (the far away, class C ones) and not others (the closer, Class A ones). Sometimes I enjoy the work, other times I don't. Sometimes hiring a PM is worth it, other times not. Sadly, most PM's are terrible, some are straight-up criminals, and only a very small percentage are any good. Bad management kills a lot of investment properties. Like @Jill F. I look at a lot of buildings. The ones in the worst condition are typically run by "professional" PM's (although not always, and it may not always be the manager's fault if the the owner doesn't want to pay for repairs or keep up with maintenance). 

    For me, the ability to put some sweat-equity into a property, fix it up myself, improve living conditions, increase rents, add value is what separates real estate from other investment vehicles. I only turn properties over to my PM once they're stabilized and they have little chance of screwing it up. I would never expect a PM to manage a property as well as I would as the owner. 

    ...

    I think the mom and pop local who run their own D C B class and do it hands on are the most profitable landlords out there.. And its their JOB they get a enough of those units and its simply what they do for a living.. you learn to love it or you sell and do something else.
     

    Exactly, Jay! And I do love it! it's a part-time, job where I set my own hours, I enjoy my tenants, I have a great maintenance team and nicely maintained apartments, so I can take extended vacations. I don't require or want a completely "passive" investment; That's part of what I like about landlording. You actually can influence how well (or poorly) your "investments" do!

    Last time I took an extended vacation ( 3 plus weeks in Europe ) was 08 by the time I got back the world was a very different place LOL

    At least for us real estate lenders investors..

  • Tim JacobPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 520 posts · 379 votes
    6y

    I think the asset comments are true.  Personally I think you should break assets into 3 categories.  

    Stuff easy to manage in the A grade area.  Getting a pm is easy and unless they suck the operation should run amooth.  

    Stuff harder to manage but that a pm will take on.  Usually B and C grade stuff. Many people on here will go this route.  

    Stuff getting good management isnt possible and unless the pm is getting better assets to manage or is otherwise financially incentivized.  Usually D grade.  Most good pms will reject this sort of stuff.  The ones that don't will not do a good job.  If they start to they might quit.

    People talk about a pm wanting to be paid fairly.  Im sure a lot of the people  want to be paid what they are worth as well at their job.  The D grade stuff doesnt pay and over time the add on fees for construction administration due to heavy turnovers and legal representation dont make it worth it for the investor either.   

    I see a lot of people on here thinking 5% or 6%  is what they should get a pm for when they have c class stuff.  That includes leasing.  Those people will get what they pay for.  Between leasing and management and assuming that there isnt a ton maintenance and repairs 12% with leasing periodically seems more realistic.    Again if you get A grade it could go lower but if someone has been a full time pm for a few years minumum wage isnt going to cut it.  To lease a C grade place its a lot more time consuming than an A grade place.  Combine that with  usually a little more difficulty otherwise and there is a more realistic 8% mgmt minimum with 4% leasing average assuming a turnover every few years.  

    I think people should look at pms like they do contractors.  If you go with a smaller licensed contractor.  Someone without too much overhead you can find someone cheaper than a larger contractor in the same field.  Usually they can respond cordially but not as immediate as a bigger operation.  They might not be able to handle something too big but for small multi and single family they will be more affordable.  They arent going to be excessively less than the big operation but there will be a discount.  

    I guess its hard for many owners to quantify what a pm has to do timewise in various asset classes to gage their hourly rate.  If they try doing that they might find out why they are charged what they are.  If they have rented rooms in there A grade primary residence than expect similar performance from a pm in a D grade asset its not going to happen based on tenant quality based on the asset.  

    For people that think a lot of pms intentinally get bad tenants for turnover I dont find that correct.  The hourly rate might go marginally down for a turnover though they might make more then than just a mgmt fee for that month.  The billable rate is what they care about as mist people here do about their jobs.  

    People can make money in B or C grade rentals with a pm where vacancy will be less than 5% .  Yes the pm will cut into the profits but it can be done and still keep a decent profit.  Just dont have unrealistic expectations treat people fairly and you can do well even out of state.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2013 · 919 posts · 911 votes
    6y

    @Joey Copper, I self-manage my properties and do NONE of the work!  ;-)  I farm out all work, mostly via home warranty.  It takes me 15 minutes a month to collect my rent.  I spend more time w my cpa than I do on my rentals.  All properties are B+/A- in good schools that I bought years ago.

    Sounds like you are trying to start a property management company to me.  Lol

  • Rental Property Investor · Navarre, FL · Member since 2019 · 913 posts · 640 votes
    6y

    Time is money and it all depends how you use it. Me I save money by trading my time to manage a couple of my properties. I have a good PM that manages my other properties without made up fees. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    Basically, it sounds like he meant to say; "if you stink at self managing and are losing profits because you stink, then it's crazy to self manage". Not quite the same as what he tried to say. 

  • Investor · Tacoma, WA · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 11 votes
    6y
    There are 100 ways to manage your property based on lots of variables. One size does not fit all.
  • Ryan GarrisonPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2017 · 234 posts · 83 votes
    6y

    I am in bucket 3 myself, but I have found that switching from normal renters to Rent to Own tenants and selling on Owner Financing has made a huge improvement in the quality of the people I deal with on the properties, and they get to deal with most of the BS instead of me :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Corvallis, OR · Member since 2018 · 840 posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Bruce Runn exactly and well said! I would be nervous to hand over my hard work. I am amazed your properties are all within 4 miles! Textbook! I am 30 minutes one direction, 20 minutes another, and 6 min in town. You and I could be rare guys, but I would never turn over my portfolio only to be run much worse and cost me a ton more. Again, well done!

  • Rental Property Investor · Albany, NY · Member since 2019 · 125 posts · 47 votes
    6y

    "Self-Manage" doesn't mean you're fixing toilets.  It just means you're managing the property & tenant.  I self-manage but I call electricians, plumbers, etc.  I only have a few properties now, but likely as I grow I'll hire someone to help manage it, for a fraction of the cost of a property manager.  (30 units, $100/unit = $3,000/mo... Could easily hire a part time assistant for half that).

  • Rental Property Investor · Toronto, Canada · Member since 2012 · 102 posts · 95 votes
    6y

    As an investor, your only purpose is to find investments, not find tenants. You're not a tenant-finder. You're an investment finder. Otherwise you're wasting your time

  • Julie MarquezPro Member
    Investor · Skagit County, WA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 807 votes
    6y

    @Alvin Sylvain I think we have the same dad! My dad's love for working on his units created millions of wealth for him - not a bad gig for a little handyman. I caught the bug from him and continue to follow in his footsteps.

  • Member since 2020 · 71 posts · 72 votes
    6y

    @Jim Chuong valid point. Your a fullbloodied investor. I’m same way on that. Spending time on houses after acquisition ties up too much time you could use acquiring more assets. If I was going to work for money I’d get a 9-5

  • Investor · Fayetteville, NC · Member since 2018 · 263 posts · 216 votes
    6y

    When I first started investing I found that managing my own properties provided an invaluable education in growing wealth thru real estate rentals. That education helped me in fine-tuning my analysis when qualifying future investments as well as learning a great deal about tenant management. Eventually I started handing my properties off to property managers to free up time but my experience helped me know what kind of questions to ask property mangers to determine who I can trust to manage my investments.

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