How Easy/Hard to Steal a House

How Easy/Hard to Steal a House

Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2009 · 259 posts · 183 votes

I have two goals for this post:

  1. Increase awareness of the issue
  2. Find ways to decrease the chances of this happening

Note: I'm not an attorney. Just an investor. 

Several weeks ago I read a post on FB about someone who got their house stolen . . . as in a form or result of ID theft. Unfortunately, I don't have the details.

When I read it, it struck a nerve. For approx. 15 years I have always wondered how relatively easy or not complicated it is to steal property. Honestly, I'm shocked it is not more common. 

The next thing I did is to speak to two attornies and one title guy. I'm still looking to speak w/ more such functions.

Do you want to guess what was the attorney's first answer? talk to the title.

Guess what title says . . . you got it . . . talk to an attorney.

LOL would be sarcstic.

The first att. I spoke to had no clue. She kept getting back to how I should protect my identity from theft. When I told her that ID theft has nothing to do w/ property theft and that you don't need a SSN to steal a house  . . . she kept circling back to ID theft and protecting it. I was not impressed . . . at all.

The second att. was more helpful. First, he acknowledged it is rather not complicated to do/accomplish. Then he said that in the past counties would have (free or for cost) a mechanism that lets the owner know and seek approval before ANY changes are made to the title. BTW, while this is a good protection layer it is far from perfect. 

The title guy had no answer. And said about the county he knows well that they have no such notification service.

In the past, someone told me he adds on the deed something like "call Jim Smith at  ### or email at @@@ for any changes".   At the time I thought it was a great idea. But I don't think anyone regularly reads the deed.

Either title or one of the attornies said that the notary should review the deed before signing. After many hundreds of notarizations, I doubt any notary does so (I could be wrong).

Like protecting our house from break-in I guess we cannot have it 100% protected but if we add bars, alarm, lights, patrol, etc. it will make it harder/less attractive for someone to break-in.

Do you have any good ways we, owners, can have better protection of our title/properties? I'll take "better" than what we have today or more difficult than what we have now.

So what's your solution, suggestion, idea?

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Real Estate Consultant · Bloomfield, NJ · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y

This is happened to about 3 properties I had under contract last year. There was a fourth that I was going to pursue until I saw the same type of deed I saw on the other three and alerted the owner. All four properties were pretty much boarded and abandoned as that's what I specialize in. All except the 4th which was very dilapidated and vacant but not boarded and abandoned. The bad part about it was that I saw the first fraudulent deed taking the property come through and confirmed with the grandson of the elderly owner that it was in fact fraudulent. He was slow in responding and doing anything about it and the next thing I know another deed where the property was resold for a six-figure sum was recorded. So the grandson had to go get an attorney and was going back and forth with the attorney.I'll have to check with him and see what the latest but I wouldn't be surprised if he decided not to pursue. Be seemed too laid-back to really be on top of things like he should have been.

But The first time I saw it, I was able to catch it quickly and respond immediately. Didn't have to get an attorney involved. The original owner was deceased and I was dealing with her son. He came out to New Jersey from Pennsylvania and I took him down to the police to file a report. Then we grabbed the surrogate paperwork already on file and I spoke to the County recorder and employees who all know me pretty well there. Based on the paperwork the county recorded quickly invalidated the fraudulent one.

The other two had already abandoned the property and had decided to not pursue. They didn't want to deal with the property anyway and I guess that experience just reminded them why they walked away from the property to begin with. 

But I actually have a picture of the guy doing it and shared it with County Police. You would be floored to find out how low on the priority pole these things sit. When you're dealing with a County that's already up to their eyeballs in murder and drug cases, fraudulent deeds Don't get too much of their attention. Plus the police can't really do anything unless the homeowner pursues it.  So this is much easier to do on abandoned properties but likely a lot harder on occupied ones. 

I think a good tutorial on showing people how to check their deeds online can probably go a long way in helping people protect themselves. In a couple of cases I noticed a notice of settlement filed and knew something was fraudulent going on. notice of settlements are filed here when someone orders title work. So unless it's my title company filing the notice under my company name, I know something fraudulent is going on. My thoughts is that if property owners you had to do this, a lot of them could protect themselves. But at the same time the county should definitely have an alert system that homeowners can sign up for. One of the owners in my cases actually saw the fraudulent sale take place via Zillow and alerted me about it.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • New to Real Estate · CO · Member since 2018 · 4 posts · 4 votes
    6y

    As a loan signing agent/notary I can tell you we aren't supposed to read the deed. We are consistently reminded that we are not attorneys and so while we can guide a client through documents we can not offer any opinion or advice on it. 

    Also by the time a sale/purchase gets to the notary it's pretty late in the game.

    Now what a notary CAN do is really check and verify the ID's that are presented. Many title companies are now asking for multiple forms of ID on the Patriot Act form which can also hinder a steal but that comes back to ID Fraud/Theft and doesn't really answer your question or how do we stop it before it gets to that point. 

    Potentially asking for multiple forms of identification earlier in the process by whoever is posting the property, the lender, or even the title company and comparing it to identification kept with the deed from the previous transaction (something that is not currently done to my knowledge) could also cut down on the potential?

    I'm curious about what others have to say that have more knowledge of the buying/selling process than I do.

  • Bjorn AhlbladPro Member
    Investor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y

    https://archives.fbi.gov/archi...

    @Dani Beit-Or Here is something pertinent I found; great topic! A little scary.

  • Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2020 · 299 posts · 476 votes
    6y

    @Dani Beit-Or This is a very interesting topic and it definitely increases awareness surrounding this issue. I'm following this thread as I'm curious to know what others have to say.

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2009 · 259 posts · 183 votes
    6y

    @Lacy Gonzales ty of the clarification! 

    Multiple forms of ID are excellent  but could also be late by the time we meet the notary. Better than 1 form of id for sure. 

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2009 · 259 posts · 183 votes
    6y

    @Bjorn Ahlblad TY for the link.

    The article is from 2008 + the suggestions on prevention are "weak" in my opinion. 

  • Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2016 · 41 posts · 29 votes
    6y

    I've just got my license as a realtor and when I started training finding prospects to make cold calls it made me sick to my stomach how easy it was to dig up information on property owners like myself unless it's under a living trust with a made-up name.  I'm no lawyer but I believe placing your properties under a living trust or land trust can provide an extra layer of protection making it harder for scammers to dig up your information.

  • Investor · Marin County California · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    As I understand it, this is an issue mainly for properties hat are held free and clear.  having a lender in the mix would complicate the scheme as presumably title would discover that the bogus warranty or quitclaim deed was not recorded concurrently with a reconveyance from the "seller's" lender.  I guess the fraudster could go so far as to prepare multiple fraudulent documents but I suspect we are mainly looking at persons who know a particular property is held free and clear and that the unsuspecting owner is relatively unsophisticated.  The title officer on  the subsequent fraudulent sale should be checking the signature on the bogus deed against other signatures by the "seller" in the file.  This is where multiple forms of ID comes in as a secondary check.     

  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Well that is scary. 

    One thing that can be done would be to find examples of this and bring it to the attention of local and national RE associations. Perhaps with their help both laws and new and improved practices can be made to make it tougher for this to happen (more checks and balances when it comes to confirming ownership).

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2009 · 259 posts · 183 votes
    6y

    @Karl B. good point. 

    Hard to fins such incidents . . . it's like they are under the radar/rare

  • Investor · Marin County California · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    There was a huge mortgage fraud case out here in the East Bay back in the mid-2000's.  Check out Gateway Bank v. Ticor - California Court of Appeal.  I successfully defended Ticor against fraud claims arising out of a mortgage bank that was using fraudulent loan documents on bogus refi's to pocket millions.  Rumor was that one of these guys had a connection to Hezbollah.   

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Honestly I would guess it mostly happens to properties that the scammer expects nobody to notice, for example: free and clear C-/D class properties in the name of a recently deceased/hospice person with no/unknown heirs. They would forge a correctly dated deed and record it, then sell it to a new investor or wholesaler who is buying cash, who will probably resell it soon again after... The issue may never be discovered, but if it is it will probably have been quite a while after the scammer is gone. 

  • Member since 2020 · 9 posts · 1 vote
    6y

    Not sure this is exactly the same but this reminds me of the criminal career of Matthew Cox.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpIsapqbAc

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2009 · 259 posts · 183 votes
    6y

    @Darius Ogloza WOW!!!

    Can you send a link? I googled but only similar names came up.

    Do you have any suggestions on how to add more levels of prevention? 

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2009 · 259 posts · 183 votes
    6y

    @Account Closed while I'm sure you are correct this can still happen to anyone. 

    I think we can all use more methods to prevent this from happening. 

  • Investor · Marin County California · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Sadly, i do not have access to the opinion any longer as it was not published.

    Here is a news article about one of the perps:

    https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2007/11/02/new-charge-filed-against-fraud-suspect/

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    That's what title insurance is for. Not something you should be spending time worrying about. 

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2009 · 259 posts · 183 votes
    6y

    @Henry Lazerow 

    When I buy a property w/ title ins. - how will that prevent someone from "stealing"? My title ins. won't cover future property theft, only past mistakes they missed on the title. Do you understand it any differently?

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Darius Ogloza:

    As I understand it, this is an issue mainly for properties hat are held free and clear.  having a lender in the mix would complicate the scheme as presumably title would discover that the bogus warranty or quitclaim deed was not recorded concurrently with a reconveyance from the "seller's" lender.  I guess the fraudster could go so far as to prepare multiple fraudulent documents but I suspect we are mainly looking at persons who know a particular property is held free and clear and that the unsuspecting owner is relatively unsophisticated.  The title officer on  the subsequent fraudulent sale should be checking the signature on the bogus deed against other signatures by the "seller" in the file.  This is where multiple forms of ID comes in as a secondary check.    

    Weak link is Notary stamp.. bad guys steal one or use one without the notary knowing.  I have had all of this happen to me over the years.

    Wild deeds.. IE someone just deeded the house away..  mortgages recorded that were frauds  etc etc.. thats why TITLE insurance Lenders and Owners is a product and should be used by most folks.

  • Investor · Marin County California · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Yep.  The guys in the Ticor case I mentioned above squeezed a rookie notary into "leaving" his stamp in an unlocked drawer in their office.

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Dani Beit-Or atleast in IL every sale has to have title insurance and an attorney to close. So the newly scammed buyers title insurance would have to pay him out for his loss while you get your property back. 

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Dani Beit-Or:

    @Henry Lazerow 

    When I buy a property w/ title ins. - how will that prevent someone from "stealing"? My title ins. won't cover future property theft, only past mistakes they missed on the title. Do you understand it any differently?

     The person who steals your title, sells the property quickly. They don't want your stolen property, they want the money. The buyer would have title insurance, so they are protected when you take the property back. So it is not your title insurance, it is the buyer of stolen goods who is protected. This makes it less likely they will fight your claim on the property.

  • Member since 2020 · 4 posts · 4 votes
    6y

    When I bought my last house in '17 (which I am in the process of selling) I asked the RE attorney about this specifically because I've been hearing the ads on Sirius for "Home title lock". He told me that I should wish for something like that to happen since I paid for title insurance up to 1M as part of the closing.

    The ads for home title lock claim that anyone can file a quick claim deed and take out equity loans on the property. Clearly the company selling title lock insurance are playing on these fears that your home can be stolen - but I wonder if this is a real fear for people that have title insurance. 

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    6y

    No one can steal the title to your property, at worst someone can forge your signature on a deed and record it.  The title did not pass to the Grantee, you still own it.  You may have some headaches clearing the forged deed from the chain of title but the property is still yours.  Many counties do have a service where they will notify a property owner when a document appearing to affect title is recorded, check with them.  I handled many title insurance cases of claims of forgery.  After an investigation the allegations of forgery were proved up and if the "owner didn't want to sell the property to the Insured, the Insured received his/her loss recoverable under the policy.

    In some areas of the country you can buy a title policy that will protect you from future forgeries, they cost more but if you're really concerned look into it. 

    https://www.firstam.com/title/homebuilder/norcal/new-homebuyer/resources/eagle-owners-policy.html#:~:text=First%20American%20Title%20Insurance%20Company%E2%80%99s%20EAGLE%20Owner%E2%80%99s%20Policy,levels%20of%20protection%20available%20to%20our%20California%20homeowners

  • Real Estate Consultant · Bloomfield, NJ · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    This is happened to about 3 properties I had under contract last year. There was a fourth that I was going to pursue until I saw the same type of deed I saw on the other three and alerted the owner. All four properties were pretty much boarded and abandoned as that's what I specialize in. All except the 4th which was very dilapidated and vacant but not boarded and abandoned. The bad part about it was that I saw the first fraudulent deed taking the property come through and confirmed with the grandson of the elderly owner that it was in fact fraudulent. He was slow in responding and doing anything about it and the next thing I know another deed where the property was resold for a six-figure sum was recorded. So the grandson had to go get an attorney and was going back and forth with the attorney.I'll have to check with him and see what the latest but I wouldn't be surprised if he decided not to pursue. Be seemed too laid-back to really be on top of things like he should have been.

    But The first time I saw it, I was able to catch it quickly and respond immediately. Didn't have to get an attorney involved. The original owner was deceased and I was dealing with her son. He came out to New Jersey from Pennsylvania and I took him down to the police to file a report. Then we grabbed the surrogate paperwork already on file and I spoke to the County recorder and employees who all know me pretty well there. Based on the paperwork the county recorded quickly invalidated the fraudulent one.

    The other two had already abandoned the property and had decided to not pursue. They didn't want to deal with the property anyway and I guess that experience just reminded them why they walked away from the property to begin with. 

    But I actually have a picture of the guy doing it and shared it with County Police. You would be floored to find out how low on the priority pole these things sit. When you're dealing with a County that's already up to their eyeballs in murder and drug cases, fraudulent deeds Don't get too much of their attention. Plus the police can't really do anything unless the homeowner pursues it.  So this is much easier to do on abandoned properties but likely a lot harder on occupied ones. 

    I think a good tutorial on showing people how to check their deeds online can probably go a long way in helping people protect themselves. In a couple of cases I noticed a notice of settlement filed and knew something was fraudulent going on. notice of settlements are filed here when someone orders title work. So unless it's my title company filing the notice under my company name, I know something fraudulent is going on. My thoughts is that if property owners you had to do this, a lot of them could protect themselves. But at the same time the county should definitely have an alert system that homeowners can sign up for. One of the owners in my cases actually saw the fraudulent sale take place via Zillow and alerted me about it.

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    6y

    I'd like to amend my answer which was correct regarding property in most of the country.  If you buy property in one of the few areas that rely on a Torrens system of recording you can lose your title in a forgery because each Certificate of Title issued by the county is considered a root of title extinguishing any interests not shown on the Certificate.  I handled one such claim where we defeated a claim made by a prior owner who claimed his signature was forged as well as the interest of several lenders because forged satisfactions were recorded also.

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