How Easy/Hard to Steal a House

How Easy/Hard to Steal a House

Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2009 · 259 posts · 183 votes

I have two goals for this post:

  1. Increase awareness of the issue
  2. Find ways to decrease the chances of this happening

Note: I'm not an attorney. Just an investor. 

Several weeks ago I read a post on FB about someone who got their house stolen . . . as in a form or result of ID theft. Unfortunately, I don't have the details.

When I read it, it struck a nerve. For approx. 15 years I have always wondered how relatively easy or not complicated it is to steal property. Honestly, I'm shocked it is not more common. 

The next thing I did is to speak to two attornies and one title guy. I'm still looking to speak w/ more such functions.

Do you want to guess what was the attorney's first answer? talk to the title.

Guess what title says . . . you got it . . . talk to an attorney.

LOL would be sarcstic.

The first att. I spoke to had no clue. She kept getting back to how I should protect my identity from theft. When I told her that ID theft has nothing to do w/ property theft and that you don't need a SSN to steal a house  . . . she kept circling back to ID theft and protecting it. I was not impressed . . . at all.

The second att. was more helpful. First, he acknowledged it is rather not complicated to do/accomplish. Then he said that in the past counties would have (free or for cost) a mechanism that lets the owner know and seek approval before ANY changes are made to the title. BTW, while this is a good protection layer it is far from perfect. 

The title guy had no answer. And said about the county he knows well that they have no such notification service.

In the past, someone told me he adds on the deed something like "call Jim Smith at  ### or email at @@@ for any changes".   At the time I thought it was a great idea. But I don't think anyone regularly reads the deed.

Either title or one of the attornies said that the notary should review the deed before signing. After many hundreds of notarizations, I doubt any notary does so (I could be wrong).

Like protecting our house from break-in I guess we cannot have it 100% protected but if we add bars, alarm, lights, patrol, etc. it will make it harder/less attractive for someone to break-in.

Do you have any good ways we, owners, can have better protection of our title/properties? I'll take "better" than what we have today or more difficult than what we have now.

So what's your solution, suggestion, idea?

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Real Estate Consultant · Bloomfield, NJ · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y

This is happened to about 3 properties I had under contract last year. There was a fourth that I was going to pursue until I saw the same type of deed I saw on the other three and alerted the owner. All four properties were pretty much boarded and abandoned as that's what I specialize in. All except the 4th which was very dilapidated and vacant but not boarded and abandoned. The bad part about it was that I saw the first fraudulent deed taking the property come through and confirmed with the grandson of the elderly owner that it was in fact fraudulent. He was slow in responding and doing anything about it and the next thing I know another deed where the property was resold for a six-figure sum was recorded. So the grandson had to go get an attorney and was going back and forth with the attorney.I'll have to check with him and see what the latest but I wouldn't be surprised if he decided not to pursue. Be seemed too laid-back to really be on top of things like he should have been.

But The first time I saw it, I was able to catch it quickly and respond immediately. Didn't have to get an attorney involved. The original owner was deceased and I was dealing with her son. He came out to New Jersey from Pennsylvania and I took him down to the police to file a report. Then we grabbed the surrogate paperwork already on file and I spoke to the County recorder and employees who all know me pretty well there. Based on the paperwork the county recorded quickly invalidated the fraudulent one.

The other two had already abandoned the property and had decided to not pursue. They didn't want to deal with the property anyway and I guess that experience just reminded them why they walked away from the property to begin with. 

But I actually have a picture of the guy doing it and shared it with County Police. You would be floored to find out how low on the priority pole these things sit. When you're dealing with a County that's already up to their eyeballs in murder and drug cases, fraudulent deeds Don't get too much of their attention. Plus the police can't really do anything unless the homeowner pursues it.  So this is much easier to do on abandoned properties but likely a lot harder on occupied ones. 

I think a good tutorial on showing people how to check their deeds online can probably go a long way in helping people protect themselves. In a couple of cases I noticed a notice of settlement filed and knew something was fraudulent going on. notice of settlements are filed here when someone orders title work. So unless it's my title company filing the notice under my company name, I know something fraudulent is going on. My thoughts is that if property owners you had to do this, a lot of them could protect themselves. But at the same time the county should definitely have an alert system that homeowners can sign up for. One of the owners in my cases actually saw the fraudulent sale take place via Zillow and alerted me about it.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2009 · 259 posts · 183 votes
    6y

    @Stephen Berry Finally a GREAT answer and solution. 

    I'm wondering about home title lock and if it worth it or is it more like HW

    Thanks!

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2009 · 259 posts · 183 votes
    6y

    @Peter Walther

    TY GREAT info and answer.

    Trying to clarify:

    I send the count a request to change the mailing address for a property (I did it once or twice in the past for my properties - only needed an email).   

    Then issue a fake ID and sell the property, if there's a loan I can even pay it off (maybe harder to do - requesting payoff letter).

    I can even open title and escrow and have them take care of all the details and payoff requests if needed.

    find a new buyer who knows nothing. 

    Attend notary signing (even a fraudulent one) 

    Done

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y

    @Dani Beit-Or to be clear you rolled out the red carpet to be terrified, all I am doing is serving your request to better live in fear for your properties, lol. 

    The good news.... wait, sorry, nope no good news, it's bad, really really bad news because fact is I can "steal" any of your properties in half the time with a fraction of the effort you laid out and it's actually 100% legal. 

    I am going to purposefully withhold some detailed information on the mechanics of how to do this, for obvious reasons, but yes I have gone through this before and am speaking from 1st hand knowledge. 

    It starts with looking up and getting familiar with Contract Law in your area, and next reviewing lien rights and lien law. These laws exist for good reason, but unfortunately in most jurisdictions (all I have ever checked into) the laws are written in a way that leave the door wide open for abuse if one so chose to do so. And in those jurisdictions I also have seen their is little to no recourse even when a person is caught red handed in the act because it is so easy to just lie and without evidence proving a lie (think of this like proving Bigfoot dosn't exist) the person walks. 

    In short the random person forecloses on your property, taking it for only the 1st lien position holder (sometimes 2nd or 3rd can step up but rarely do they actually elect to do so for some unknown bizarness in the world of banking). 

    Actually the mechanisms for this are all but identical to those utilized in Redemption's strategy. 

    How does one protect themselves from such; You can't, not 100%. You can deter persons by not being the fattest juiciest worm in the bucket, that's to say rotate your mortgage finance to hover in that 60%'ish LTV range, not declining below 50% ltv. A paid off or nearly paid off property, in a persons private name, that's just asking for trouble. Having legal representation on retainer is a good measure, having a good attorney at hand is like having a dog with a good bark/bite, awfully handy to have at the ready if you ever need it and most often a quick nip is all it takes.

    Other then that there is the ambulance-chaser lawsuits, they came walking up to a property, slipped, fell now have some diagnoses by Dr Quack and sue for personal injury and want to attach all your income because your the "Big Bad Rich Landlord". 

  • Investor · NorCal · Member since 2015 · 281 posts · 240 votes
    6y

    If you own a property free and clear, maybe it's best to have a trustworthy family member record a 100%LTV private mortgage against the property? This might also scare away some tenants' landlords from suing you if public records show that there is no equity...

  • Investor · NorCal · Member since 2015 · 281 posts · 240 votes
    6y

    One way to protect yourself would be to check the website of your county's clerk recorder against your name (or your LLC's) to see if anything was recorded under your name. Maybe monthly or so?

  • Investor · NorCal · Member since 2015 · 281 posts · 240 votes
    6y

    My title insurance guy said this happens pretty often on vacant land. On houses the fraud gets revealed real quick when the new owner wants to move in, collects rent or starts renovating.

    With Vacant land however, you would not notice anything until someone starts grading the land or doing construction, which could be years later. If that’s the case, maybe wait until he is finished building, lol. You might get a free house out of it...

  • Los Alamitos, CA · Member since 2017 · 25 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @Dani Beit-Or my understanding is that it's not hard to do a quickclaim deed to steal a property. I'm surprised it's not done more often. It must be harder than I thought or more people would do it. I know there is an advertisement that I have seen for a program like lifelock, but its for home title protection. I would research that if I was concerned about it. Ultimately I think like others have said that if you have a loan on a property there is a lot more protection. Also the land trust is a good option but the cost might be an issue.

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2009 · 259 posts · 183 votes
    6y

    One idea that came up is to record a lien. Even my own lien of a "fake" amount.

    That will make it harder to take it or less attractive and the lien holder can be me.

    100% safe/prevention - probably not.

    Better than nothing on a free & clear - probably yes. 

  • Investor · St Petersburg, FL · Member since 2014 · 231 posts · 221 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Scott Braden:

    Not sure this is exactly the same but this reminds me of the criminal career of Matthew Cox.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpIsapqbAc

     I just put his book on my Amazon list. There are a few ahead of him, but I can't wait to read it! His interviews with the Koncrete podcast are fantastic!

  • Investor · St Petersburg, FL · Member since 2014 · 231 posts · 221 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jim Spatzenfeld:

    My title insurance guy said this happens pretty often on vacant land. On houses the fraud gets revealed real quick when the new owner wants to move in, collects rent or starts renovating.

    With Vacant land however, you would not notice anything until someone starts grading the land or doing construction, which could be years later. If that’s the case, maybe wait until he is finished building, lol. You might get a free house out of it...

     My mother just had a similar case, though I think it was laziness rather than malice. Mom is a realtor, and she owns some land adjacent to her childhood home. We sold the parcel with the house on it years ago, after my grandmother died, but mom still owns some farmland, and leases it to family. This is a few hours away from where my parents live, but it's on the way to the area they like to vacation. So Mom drives past the house and the land and sees a "for sale" sign on it. She takes a picture of the sign, calls the listing agent, and asks that the sign be removed. The listing agent claimed that she'd never actually seen the property, but the address is several blocks away, on a different road. Our distant family members that lease the land and work it didn't mention anything to my mom about the sign. She only drives that road a few times a year, so someone could have bought it and completed construction on it before she even noticed.

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Peter Walther To my knowledge, you can’t get enhanced owners coverage (which would cover post-policy forgery) on investment properties. They are for homeowners only.

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:

    @Peter Walther To my knowledge, you can’t get enhanced owners coverage (which would cover post-policy forgery) on investment properties. They are for homeowners only.

    It's been awhile since I've looked at one Tom but I seem to recall the policy being limited to property improved with a one to four family improvement with the insured being a natural person.  If you have one can you send me copy to take a look at?

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @James Hamling:

    @Dani Beit-Or to be clear you rolled out the red carpet to be terrified, all I am doing is serving your request to better live in fear for your properties, lol. 

    The good news.... wait, sorry, nope no good news, it's bad, really really bad news because fact is I can "steal" any of your properties in half the time with a fraction of the effort you laid out and it's actually 100% legal. 

    I am going to purposefully withhold some detailed information on the mechanics of how to do this, for obvious reasons, but yes I have gone through this before and am speaking from 1st hand knowledge. 

    It starts with looking up and getting familiar with Contract Law in your area, and next reviewing lien rights and lien law. These laws exist for good reason, but unfortunately in most jurisdictions (all I have ever checked into) the laws are written in a way that leave the door wide open for abuse if one so chose to do so. And in those jurisdictions I also have seen their is little to no recourse even when a person is caught red handed in the act because it is so easy to just lie and without evidence proving a lie (think of this like proving Bigfoot dosn't exist) the person walks. 

    In short the random person forecloses on your property, taking it for only the 1st lien position holder (sometimes 2nd or 3rd can step up but rarely do they actually elect to do so for some unknown bizarness in the world of banking). 

    Actually the mechanisms for this are all but identical to those utilized in Redemption's strategy. 

    How does one protect themselves from such; You can't, not 100%. You can deter persons by not being the fattest juiciest worm in the bucket, that's to say rotate your mortgage finance to hover in that 60%'ish LTV range, not declining below 50% ltv. A paid off or nearly paid off property, in a persons private name, that's just asking for trouble. Having legal representation on retainer is a good measure, having a good attorney at hand is like having a dog with a good bark/bite, awfully handy to have at the ready if you ever need it and most often a quick nip is all it takes.

    Other then that there is the ambulance-chaser lawsuits, they came walking up to a property, slipped, fell now have some diagnoses by Dr Quack and sue for personal injury and want to attach all your income because your the "Big Bad Rich Landlord". 

    One more time, neither you nor anyone else can steal the title to my property. You can record all the forged deeds you want and I, not you, own the property. You can use the forged deed to defraud another buyer by giving him/her a deed or a lender by giving them a mortgage or a DOT, but they got exactly what you had, nothing. I have lots of first hand knowledge having dealt with many forgeries and had several of them prosecuted and jailed.

    I can't follow any of the rest of your narrative related to foreclosure by random people

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Dani Beit-Or:

    @Stephen Berry Finally a GREAT answer and solution. 

    I'm wondering about home title lock and if it worth it or is it more like HW

    Thanks!

    My understanding all they do is assist you in registering your name with the Clerk for notification if a document appearing to affect title to your property is recorded and help you with recording an affidavit of forgery if you are the unlikely victim of a forged deed.  I think most people would be able to do that without assistance.

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Dani Beit-Or:

    @Peter Walther

    TY GREAT info and answer.

    Trying to clarify:

    I send the count a request to change the mailing address for a property (I did it once or twice in the past for my properties - only needed an email).   

    Then issue a fake ID and sell the property, if there's a loan I can even pay it off (maybe harder to do - requesting payoff letter).

    I can even open title and escrow and have them take care of all the details and payoff requests if needed.

    find a new buyer who knows nothing. 

    Attend notary signing (even a fraudulent one) 

    Done

    I don't know why you would send a change of address to the court, I'm not aware of any reason they would care where you live.

    Yes you can get fake ID's to convince a notary your are the same person as the record title is in, but that doesn't make you them.

    You can convince someone you own the property and get them to enter into a contract to buy it and give it to a settlement agent.

    You can go to closing, provide the fake ID, have any mortgages and other liens paid off out of the sale proceeds, collect the rest and go on your way.

    You did not, I repeat did, not steal the title to the property.  You defrauded the buyer out of his/her money.  They are the victim of your theft, not the owner.  The true owner may have the headache of having the forged deed expunged deed from record and may have to repay the buyer for any money that paid off valid liens against the property or they may be entitled to an equitable lien, but they didn't get title to the property.  The caveat is this does not apply if title is registered in a Torrens registry and a Certificate of Title was issued by the Registrar of Deeds without exception for the owner's interest.

    And if the buyer was insured by an underwriter I worked for and the company reimbursed the insured for the loss and I caught the claim, I would push for the company to retain private investigators to investigate the crime, put the evidence together to prove you did it, provide the proof to the proper District or US Attorney and try to put your thieving *** in jail.

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jim Spatzenfeld:

    If you own a property free and clear, maybe it's best to have a trustworthy family member record a 100%LTV private mortgage against the property? This might also scare away some tenants' landlords from suing you if public records show that there is no equity...

    So when your family member gets a judgment against them and the creditor attempts to levy on the mortgage payment you'll have to explain there really isn't a mortgage and you really don't owe your family member any money?  Good luck with that.

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jim Spatzenfeld:

    My title insurance guy said this happens pretty often on vacant land. On houses the fraud gets revealed real quick when the new owner wants to move in, collects rent or starts renovating.

    With Vacant land however, you would not notice anything until someone starts grading the land or doing construction, which could be years later. If that’s the case, maybe wait until he is finished building, lol. You might get a free house out of it...

    I'm not sure what pretty often means, one out of ten, one out of a hundred, a thousand, a million?  Its happens but based on my experience no one should lose any sleep over the possibility.  Most forgeries involving vacant land come to light when the annual tax bill comes out and the true owner doesn't receive it and they contact the Tax Collector's Office only to find out a forged deed has been recorded.

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jim Spatzenfeld:

    If you own a property free and clear, maybe it's best to have a trustworthy family member record a 100%LTV private mortgage against the property? This might also scare away some tenants' landlords from suing you if public records show that there is no equity...

    Also better not have a falling out with the trusted family member or have them die before they sign a sat of mtg.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Peter Walther:
    Originally posted by @James Hamling:

    @Dani Beit-Or to be clear you rolled out the red carpet to be terrified, all I am doing is serving your request to better live in fear for your properties, lol. 

    The good news.... wait, sorry, nope no good news, it's bad, really really bad news because fact is I can "steal" any of your properties in half the time with a fraction of the effort you laid out and it's actually 100% legal. 

    I am going to purposefully withhold some detailed information on the mechanics of how to do this, for obvious reasons, but yes I have gone through this before and am speaking from 1st hand knowledge. 

    It starts with looking up and getting familiar with Contract Law in your area, and next reviewing lien rights and lien law. These laws exist for good reason, but unfortunately in most jurisdictions (all I have ever checked into) the laws are written in a way that leave the door wide open for abuse if one so chose to do so. And in those jurisdictions I also have seen their is little to no recourse even when a person is caught red handed in the act because it is so easy to just lie and without evidence proving a lie (think of this like proving Bigfoot dosn't exist) the person walks. 

    In short the random person forecloses on your property, taking it for only the 1st lien position holder (sometimes 2nd or 3rd can step up but rarely do they actually elect to do so for some unknown bizarness in the world of banking). 

    Actually the mechanisms for this are all but identical to those utilized in Redemption's strategy. 

    How does one protect themselves from such; You can't, not 100%. You can deter persons by not being the fattest juiciest worm in the bucket, that's to say rotate your mortgage finance to hover in that 60%'ish LTV range, not declining below 50% ltv. A paid off or nearly paid off property, in a persons private name, that's just asking for trouble. Having legal representation on retainer is a good measure, having a good attorney at hand is like having a dog with a good bark/bite, awfully handy to have at the ready if you ever need it and most often a quick nip is all it takes.

    Other then that there is the ambulance-chaser lawsuits, they came walking up to a property, slipped, fell now have some diagnoses by Dr Quack and sue for personal injury and want to attach all your income because your the "Big Bad Rich Landlord". 

    One more time, neither you nor anyone else can steal the title to my property. You can record all the forged deeds you want and I, not you, own the property. You can use the forged deed to defraud another buyer by giving him/her a deed or a lender by giving them a mortgage or a DOT, but they got exactly what you had, nothing. I have lots of first hand knowledge having dealt with many forgeries and had several of them prosecuted and jailed.

    I can't follow any of the rest of your narrative related to foreclosure by random people

    Sorry to burst your bubble but your flat wrong. Given your response it's apparent you didn't actually read what I wrote and detailed. I never said 1 word about forgeries, I specifically stated the method is LEGAL, and I would not need your pretty little deed because after foreclosing on you I would receive a new deed, free and clear of all encumbrances and liens. 

    I suggest you gain some knowledge on this first, study redemption's and much of the mechanisms are contained there in. And as for describing step by step how to do it I clearly stated NO I will not do that, I have laid out the narrative and location for the information but I am a bit brighter than detailing how to do such a thing. 

  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    I have seen this done a few times.  It is very rare but I have seen people try it and get caught.

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @James Hamling:
    Originally posted by @Peter Walther:
    Originally posted by @James Hamling:

    @Dani Beit-Or to be clear you rolled out the red carpet to be terrified, all I am doing is serving your request to better live in fear for your properties, lol. 

    The good news.... wait, sorry, nope no good news, it's bad, really really bad news because fact is I can "steal" any of your properties in half the time with a fraction of the effort you laid out and it's actually 100% legal. 

    I am going to purposefully withhold some detailed information on the mechanics of how to do this, for obvious reasons, but yes I have gone through this before and am speaking from 1st hand knowledge. 

    It starts with looking up and getting familiar with Contract Law in your area, and next reviewing lien rights and lien law. These laws exist for good reason, but unfortunately in most jurisdictions (all I have ever checked into) the laws are written in a way that leave the door wide open for abuse if one so chose to do so. And in those jurisdictions I also have seen their is little to no recourse even when a person is caught red handed in the act because it is so easy to just lie and without evidence proving a lie (think of this like proving Bigfoot dosn't exist) the person walks. 

    In short the random person forecloses on your property, taking it for only the 1st lien position holder (sometimes 2nd or 3rd can step up but rarely do they actually elect to do so for some unknown bizarness in the world of banking). 

    Actually the mechanisms for this are all but identical to those utilized in Redemption's strategy. 

    How does one protect themselves from such; You can't, not 100%. You can deter persons by not being the fattest juiciest worm in the bucket, that's to say rotate your mortgage finance to hover in that 60%'ish LTV range, not declining below 50% ltv. A paid off or nearly paid off property, in a persons private name, that's just asking for trouble. Having legal representation on retainer is a good measure, having a good attorney at hand is like having a dog with a good bark/bite, awfully handy to have at the ready if you ever need it and most often a quick nip is all it takes.

    Other then that there is the ambulance-chaser lawsuits, they came walking up to a property, slipped, fell now have some diagnoses by Dr Quack and sue for personal injury and want to attach all your income because your the "Big Bad Rich Landlord". 

    One more time, neither you nor anyone else can steal the title to my property. You can record all the forged deeds you want and I, not you, own the property. You can use the forged deed to defraud another buyer by giving him/her a deed or a lender by giving them a mortgage or a DOT, but they got exactly what you had, nothing. I have lots of first hand knowledge having dealt with many forgeries and had several of them prosecuted and jailed.

    I can't follow any of the rest of your narrative related to foreclosure by random people

    Sorry to burst your bubble but your flat wrong. Given your response it's apparent you didn't actually read what I wrote and detailed. I never said 1 word about forgeries, I specifically stated the method is LEGAL, and I would not need your pretty little deed because after foreclosing on you I would receive a new deed, free and clear of all encumbrances and liens. 

    I suggest you gain some knowledge on this first, study redemption's and much of the mechanisms are contained there in. And as for describing step by step how to do it I clearly stated NO I will not do that, I have laid out the narrative and location for the information but I am a bit brighter than detailing how to do such a thing. 

    It's hard to provide an informed response when you won't describe what you're writing about.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y

    What is the point of discussing how to "steal" a property and chasing the rabbit down the rabbit hole on what-if's? It's a bizarre question as it is really a non-issue except for the about 7 people this happens to per year in the U.S.. 

    And if secretly considering doing this as a strategy maybe consider a more noble cause like High Seas Piracy, at least with that you get a fancy hat, maybe a plucky little side kick, cool parrot.... or maybe sell reverse mortgages, wait I already said Piracy.... ooh ooh ooh I got it, run for SENATE!

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