Why are you refusing section 8 vouchers?

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Why are you refusing section 8 vouchers?

James York
Member since 2020 · 137 posts · 158 votes

I’ve just finished reading “The Color of Law” which is an eye opening look in to government sponsored segregation through housing policy. With section 8 being an actionable step in the right direction, why are some landlords refusing it? The inspections I’ve experienced look for things I’d demand for my family. The allowance for rent meets or sometimes exceeds market rent in my area.  The tenants are often more qualified than market tenants. They often have incomes 6-8x their portion of the rent vs the 3x I typically require. Aside from places where vouchers don’t match market rent, why aren’t you taking section 8 tenants?

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Lam N.
Rental Property Investor · Troy · Member since 2017 · 175 posts · 271 votes
5y

(1) Inspectors have to justify their job.  So, they will always find something.  One time, we showed them a recently renovated unit.  They literally did not find a single thing wrong with the unit.  But they dinged us on peeling paint on the wooden post as divider for the garden area.  Remediation for that was easy enough.  We just painted over it.  But the point remains.  You can give them a perfect unit and they will still find something wrong with it.

(2) Section 8 tenants are lazy and demanding.  They will literally demand that you come out to press the reset button on the gfi.  

(3) No accountability at all.  Every section 8 tenant I have ever had ended up trashing the place.  They also live in filthy conditions.  

Sorry, will never do section 8 ever again.  Too much of a headache dealing with this segment of the tenant pool.

Edit.

Section 8 tenants are kings and queens of the learned helplessness examples.  They never ever want to improve their lives.  The tragic thing is they pass this learned helplessness onto their children.  It's sad to watch them not able to do the simplest things.  They don't even have the common sense for the simplest things.  


For example, one time they poured grease down the drain and clogged it.  They told us the kitchen sink was clogged.  When I got there, the kitchen was semi-flooded.  Why?  Because they continued to use the sink anyway and it was overflowing onto the kitchen floor.  Honestly, do you really want to deal with people like this?  I was going to say they are dumber than rocks but I'm sure social justice warriors on here will kill me over it.  But how would you describe people who continue to use the kitchen sink that was clogged even though it was flooding the kitchen floor?

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  • Tracy Opoku
    Attorney · Bridgeport, CT · Member since 2021 · 32 posts · 25 votes
    5y

    @James York

    This doesn’t answer your question, but I’d watch the BP real estate podcast/ YT video featuring Joe Asamoah which gave great insight into the section 8 program and how he’s found his niche there. Others might also be able to benefit from the episode. Highlight was his intensive screening process to weed out less favorable tenants.

    4Reply
  • Johann Jells
    Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Will Stewart:

    Maybe Section 8 isn’t the right answer- it might be building more government housing (as they have in the UK) or something else. I for one own mobile home parks and find they are a great way to offer home ownership to people that otherwise may rely on a Section 8 voucher.

    All proactive government solutions like public housing and S-8 are ridiculous to discuss until we do away with the exclusionary zoning that drives up housing costs where people want to live and give the free market a chance to build us a way out of our housing crisis. Where I live and own in the 6ths densest county in the nation, there's 25 x 100 lots with pre-war walkup buildings of 8 or even 10 units. They could not be built in the current default zoning, only a 2 family with huge expensive apartments. All over the nation most municipalities prohibit multifamily development. Until we take this on, arguing about S-8 is ignoring the elephant in the room. 

    My S-8 story: not long after purchasing a 4U property and installing a new boiler I get a call from the legacy S-8 tenant that it's freezing. I run up there and she answers the door in a tank top and shorts. It's February in NJ and it's 71 degrees in the apartment. I suggest she put on some clothes and she screeches at me "that's bullsh*t!!!"  Not long after, but not before an incident where her adult daughter somehow scalds her baby in the tub and 'family protection' is called, they depart for a new construction also with included utilities. Glad that 'Professional Tenant' moved on. I rent mostly to young educated upwardly mobile people who don't see me as "The Man". There's no class struggle to our relationship, many of them will go on to earn more than I do if they don't already.

    2Reply
  • Brynmore Williams
    Everett, MA · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 5 votes
    5y

    @James York

    I would bet you anything that if this post was simply about “my nightmare tenant” there would be much talk about the failings of the landlords’ screening process. Instead I just see blanket generalizations that support the exact structural racism your question is prodding at.

    Check out this podcast for the right way to manage a section 8 portfolio.

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/biggerpockets-podcast-356-joe-asamoah

    5Reply
  • Jeff Fulchino
    Real Estate Agent · Monroe, CT · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 0 votes
    5y

    By law you cannot base your decision to accept or reject a tenant based on whether or not they have a section 8 voucher, or any assistance for that matter.

    0Reply
  • Brian Garlington
    Realtor · Oakland, CA and a Real Estate Investor with Multi-Family Units and a Self Storage Facility · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Steve Vaughan      You literally have a couple of my criteria in there. No smoking of ANY kind. I don't care if you do have a "medical card" or not, you won't be doing it in any of my rentals. As for surprise animals.....because you can't discriminate against ESA's or Service Animals, I like to verbally ask the prospective tenant if they have any animals OR pets. How they answer the question will tell you a lot. If they tell me they have a dog, but they "don't know what kind of dog because it is a rescue dog", I simply ask them to send me a p[icture of the dog. I do not know ONE owner of a rescue dog that does not have picture(s) of their rescue on their phone. If it takes the person an unusual amount of time to send me a picture that i know is readily on their phone, the "antenna's" go up.

    A couple of other things I do is ask how many people will potentially live in the property with the tenant. I ALWAYS mentally add "2" to the number the prospective tenant tells me. If I have a 3 bedroom 1 bath spot open and she says she has 3 kids I don't leave it there. I ask how many people are age 16 or over. The 16 year olsd is probably going to be having friends over quite a bit that spend the night.....and of course the adult companion (male or female) will be there a LOT with a child of their own. I will figure there will be 6 people living there and a lot of "visitors". The beauty of Section 8 is that there is also very high demand regarding tenants.....so much so that I know there will be multiple people that have only 1 or 2 kids that want to move into the 3 bedroom......I think you see where I am going with this.

    I will also ask if they have any evictions or felonies and I let them know that there will be a background check that they will pay for that will still be done. If they balk at the $40.00 charge from SmartMove (Background Check) then I move on to the next candidate.  

    They also have to have some "skin in the game" as well. I require a full one months'd deposit before they can move in. Also, in the ad's I mention that I will prefer to see their current residence before I will let them sign a lease. If the prospective tenant is local to me then I will verbally tell them this while they are looking at the prospective property. If they balk at this, I move on to the next tenant. When I see their place I am not trying to do a white glove inspection. The reality is I simply want to swing by there for 30 seconds to make sure there are no holes punched in the wall, the refrigerator door doesn't look like the kids have been swinging from it, etc. 

    If a prospective tenant is on the other side of the country I will still say that we "prefer" to see the inside of your "current" property before signing a lease on the new one. I mention this a couple of times. Then I will simply let them know that "Tuesday night at 8 I will call you regarding what we are deciding on the property, will you be home then?"    If they say yes, guess what happens at 8pm sharp on Tuesday? I call them. By 8pm on a Tuesday night a lot of people are home (including the kids, who most likely also have a phone that definitely has facetime or video). I will ask the prospective tenant if they are indeed home. Then I ask them if we can face time real briefly. You'd be surprised how many say "Yes." If they say, "Oh, I can't do face time on my phone." Then I ask them if they can do  a brief 10 second video of the living room, 10 seconds of the kitchen, and 10 seconds of the bathroom as a video to send me with their phone. I don't need video of the bedroom. If they balk at sending the brief 10 second videos or they say their phone isn't acting right then i simply remind them that we would need to see the inside of their place real briefly and then I ask if perhaps one of their kids can take a 10 second video of the kitchen with their phone. If they balk at this, then I go in a different direction.

    Yes some of this may seem to be too much "work", but remember,...short term pain for long term gain.  

    6Reply
  • Matt Ziegler
    Rental Property Investor · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2020 · 433 posts · 284 votes
    5y

    James York,

    I read the book and I agree with you there have been many injustices done, in the housing sector, especially. This book is a good read for anyone who is open to learning from our past. Having said that, we don't currently participate in the section 8 program . That doesn't mean that we wouldn't.

    We have done all of our screening and vetting to ensure that the residents in our places want to be there and qualify based on our rental criteria. The time and effort put into carefully screening potential residents is the most important step in protecting everyone involved in the transaction.   

    Good conversation, I think we all need to do the best we can to improve the communities that we invest in.

    Cheers

    3Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    I've probably had 40 sec8 tenants over the years.  The 2 bad ones were my fault, both sob stories I was trying to give a hand up. 'Victims' wanting a hand out will never be good renters. 

    But my local HUD and VA (VASH veteran placement that basically rolls into sec8) offices and personnel are great to work with. We've had the same inspector for 30 years and she's great. When she retires it may change, but I think a lot is screening out smokers and surprise animals like you would anyone and whether you have competent HUD staff that give a rip or not.

    Location location location

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  • Char Tovar
    Investor · Gig Harbor, WA · Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 19 votes
    5y

    In my prior life I spent a few years as a property manager for multiple apartment complexes in different areas of the city. Some areas had more and some had less of Section 8 tenant make-up, but they were all fairly similar in the experience. The paperwork and government interaction can be onerous and time consuming but generally speaking, the tenants were no worse than the regular tenants in that area. I believe Section 8 affords landlords the opportunity to give back to their community to the degree they can. I had pretty good experience with it overall and now that I am becoming a landlord myself, I wouldn't have any issue with having Section 8 tenants. It really is nice to have guaranteed rent and I enjoy the idea of providing decent and affordable housing to those who might not have access to it otherwise.  

    3Reply
  • Alex Jones
    Rental Property Investor · Rochester, NY · Member since 2013 · 162 posts · 127 votes
    5y

    @James York

    Great question! I have had a great experience working with Housing of Choice vouchers (Section 8). In fact it was during the Pandemic that Housing of Choice is the most reliable clients. I have no problems with them and they even pay slightly above the market rate!! Most of the landlords are bias and stereotypes toward the Housing of Choice programs and their clients.

    Alex

    3Reply
  • Jonathan Satizabal
    Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 80 posts · 90 votes
    5y

    Interesting how many responses are on here for this topic.

    I would like to add that the majority of the problems that I have had with section 8 has not been the tenants. It's the inspection process and the time it takes to get the contracts approved. Having a handyman that is familiar with the inspection process made a huge difference in working with section 8.

    I would suggest that you get to know the process of working with section 8 and find a handyman that knows how to pass the inspections.

    3Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Brian Garlington:

    Keyboard Warriors are alive and well here on BP. 

    I have a tremendous amount of respect for folks like Jay and a couple of others that openly say they have their differences with Section 8 tenants or the Section 8 program while not hiding any aspect of their profiles. 

    Looking at this thread it is almost hilarious how most of the posters that have the most disparaging remarks to say about the Section 8 program also don't have the "cohones" to show their picture, full name and location in their profile :-)   

    It's almost like being on some random message board with folks hiding behind random screen names.

    Anyway,.....Section 8 and the tenants that come with it are far from perfect. I actually still have some rentals that are cash tenants. Interestingly, the ones that give my PM the most trouble are those cash tenants, not the Section 8 tenants.

    Brian I grew up in the Bay Area my Dad sold real estate in the 60s in the Bay area and for Boise Cascade  I knew what went on there .. NO question about it we all know..   I have to hand it to my Dad he broke the mold we were not well like up at Clearlake CA .. By doing business with only one caveat  Do they have the down payment  Do they want to buy this particular lot and either pay cash or payments. thats it. And we crushed it..  I worked personally in Richmond Oakland Pinole  SF  all those areas that were diverse .. 

    So its not that issue for me.. its simply what I experienced and we probably were not good enough at it (landlording) even though we might have thought we were... bad tenants simply come in every flavor of the rainbow.. I will say though that my 800 Fico 100k a year tenants give me no issues at all. 

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  • Brian Garlington
    Realtor · Oakland, CA and a Real Estate Investor with Multi-Family Units and a Self Storage Facility · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Jay Hinrichs   I hear you my man. Much respect to you.

    2Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Brian Garlington:

    @Jay Hinrichs   I hear you my man. Much respect to you.

    I am old enough to remember.. many on this site simply are not.. 

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  • Lee Carrell
    Investor · St. Louis, MO · Member since 2015 · 87 posts · 41 votes
    5y

    This is great! Everyone is learning from each other! I had an incident with section 8 a few years ago that I did not like. A tenant complained to section 8 that the unit was cold, before mentioning it to me. The section 8 inspector did an emergency inspection and cut off payment before notifying me that there was an issue. It was only the end of September and the standing-pilot furnace had not been lit yet! You better believe I gave section 8 an earful about cutting the payment without contacting me! Ending on a good note, during the pandemic, I have continued to be paid on time and in full!!

    2Reply
  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    5y

    Its not that I dont take section tenants . When I put one of my places up for rent I get 10 to 12 applicants . When asked if I take a voucher I say sure . They then ask if the place has passed inspection ?  I tell them , no it hasnt . The prospective tenant tells me it takes 30 to 45 days for an inspection appointment . My response is well it will be rented within the next week . 

    The single women love the place and the nice big 1/2 yard . Until I tell them they are responsible to mow it . 

    1Reply
  • Brian Garlington
    Realtor · Oakland, CA and a Real Estate Investor with Multi-Family Units and a Self Storage Facility · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Jay Hinrichs   Many on this thread actually have no clue what you are even referring to. Believe me though, some of us are intimately aware of it.

    5Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Brian Garlington:

    @Jay Hinrichs   Many on this thread actually have no clue what you are even referring to. Believe me though, some of us are intimately aware of it.

    Thank you for that I deeply appreciate it.. 

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  • Steve Vaughan
    Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Brian Garlington:

    @Steve Vaughan      You literally have a couple of my criteria in there. No smoking of ANY kind. As for surprise animals.....because you can't discriminate against ESA's or Service Animals, I like to verbally ask the prospective tenant if they have any animals OR pets

    Good methods.  In my ads, with no ph# and just cross-streets, prospective applicants must answer questions.  My top 2 are how much do you smoke and how many animals do you have?  

    Do you have any animals or pets is easier to dodge IMO.  If you ask how many, they can later be denied for being untruthful if necessary. Make them give you a number. 

    2Reply
  • Brian Garlington
    Realtor · Oakland, CA and a Real Estate Investor with Multi-Family Units and a Self Storage Facility · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Steve Vaughan  I hadn't thought of that. Good suggestion!

    1Reply
  • Mark Cruse
    Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    Too many ignorant comments to respond to but a substantial degree of the problems landlords find themselves in regarding the section 8 program has to do with their own lacking abilities and personal bias. There are so many who tend to know what they are doing who dont encounter all these stereotypical scenarios. That alone speaks volumes. 

    11Reply
  • Joshua ChristensenPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Albuquerque, NM · Member since 2015 · 281 posts · 232 votes
    5y

    We have a lot of low income families in Albuquerque.  We accept Sect 8 vouchers and we are prepared for evictions.  I am heavy handed on my background checks and don't accept just anyone into our units.  Felonies, SEx crimes, drugs - No way.  Previous evictions?  No way.  I've had 50/50 luck with my Vouchers.  Some are great and others not so great.  I've had similar with Paying tenants.  

    We've opted to accept them.  Constant flow of residents when the properties turn.  We educate our residents on what they are responsible for when they move out.  

    3Reply
  • Flavio Zanetti
    Investor · Andover, MA · Member since 2015 · 269 posts · 67 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Carlos Ptriawan:

    I'd rather rent to a hardworking undocumented immigrant that's working hard. 

    As someone said, section 8 rabbit hole.

    1000% agree with you @Carlos.

    Does that mean that every Section 8 tenant is bad? That abuses their property? Of course not, but on average we can do much better with market tenants... 

    Btw, 20% of our tenant base is Section 8

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  • Flavio Zanetti
    Investor · Andover, MA · Member since 2015 · 269 posts · 67 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Matthew Irish-Jones:

    @James York it’s illegal not to accept it in NY.

    Under Massachusetts law also, it is illegal to turn away an applicant for housing on the basis of their receiving public assistance.

    2Reply
  • Richard A Gibboney Jr
    Member since 2021 · 2 posts · 4 votes
    5y

    I have a section 8 rental in Washington DC now worth $410,000 I paid $160,000 4 or 5  years ago.

    I went section 8 because the neighborhood was not that great  and in Wash DC it can take 6 months to evict so I choose the guaranteed income approach and I got a full deposit.

    1) I failed a Section 8 inspection for the broken window latch, in a closet on the third floor on the third inspection

    2) Mysterious thing  "break" dining room chandelier, two exterior lights. ( before I purchased the house was VACANT for one year and nothing like this happened)

    3) self entitled attitude of occupants who are living for free

    4) house is DIRTY- really just broom sweep my beautiful hardwood floors.

    5) difficult to get them out.

    6) rent increases of 3% is WAY under market.

    7) with Covid tenant does not want me in house

    8) the 1099 income is fully taxable

    1Reply
  • Rob Bowling
    Investor · Prospect, KY · Member since 2015 · 47 posts · 77 votes
    5y

    I've got 40 something sect 8 tenants currently, so I obviously accept and deal with sect 8. But with that being said, it's a pain in the ***. LOTS of paperwork, unfavorable terms, tenants get the upper hand, bad inspectors make things miserable, a huge delay in getting paid etc.

    Ive had an inspector fail a unit for no hot water heater ( it was a renewal inspection, not even initial), she wasn't aware the whole building had a centralized boiler. My question of course was...." Why didn't she just turn the faucet on?"

    i had an inspection fail because the tenant had his bedroom in the living room. Why do they care where the tenants bdrm is?

    i greatly dislike that no matter what the situation is, it's the landlords responsibility to fix. The front of the stove is shattered, the tenant has been there for 6 years, but they still insisted I fix it before payments would be resumed. I've got hundreds of stories.  I don't blame anyone who doesn't take sect 8, I've greatly lowered it myself as far as an overall percentage.

    5Reply
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