Why are you refusing section 8 vouchers?
Member since 2020 · 137 posts · 158 votes
Why are you refusing section 8 vouchers?
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Rental Property Investor · Troy · Member since 2017 · 175 posts · 271 votes
5y(1) Inspectors have to justify their job. So, they will always find something. One time, we showed them a recently renovated unit. They literally did not find a single thing wrong with the unit. But they dinged us on peeling paint on the wooden post as divider for the garden area. Remediation for that was easy enough. We just painted over it. But the point remains. You can give them a perfect unit and they will still find something wrong with it.
(2) Section 8 tenants are lazy and demanding. They will literally demand that you come out to press the reset button on the gfi.
(3) No accountability at all. Every section 8 tenant I have ever had ended up trashing the place. They also live in filthy conditions.
Sorry, will never do section 8 ever again. Too much of a headache dealing with this segment of the tenant pool.
Edit.
Section 8 tenants are kings and queens of the learned helplessness examples. They never ever want to improve their lives. The tragic thing is they pass this learned helplessness onto their children. It's sad to watch them not able to do the simplest things. They don't even have the common sense for the simplest things.
For example, one time they poured grease down the drain and clogged it. They told us the kitchen sink was clogged. When I got there, the kitchen was semi-flooded. Why? Because they continued to use the sink anyway and it was overflowing onto the kitchen floor. Honestly, do you really want to deal with people like this? I was going to say they are dumber than rocks but I'm sure social justice warriors on here will kill me over it. But how would you describe people who continue to use the kitchen sink that was clogged even though it was flooding the kitchen floor?
212 Replies
- Rental Property Investor · Troy · Member since 2017 · 175 posts · 271 votes5y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
All of these responses can be summarized with two words: racism. Classism.
to most people, section means poor possibly uneducated black and brown people and they don’t want that “element” in their properties. And the neighbors probably don’t want it either.
it’s discriminatory, it’s classist and it should be illegal to deny anyone based on source of income.Has nothing to do with race. My properties happen to be whiter than white areas. The sec 8 tenants I had problems with in the past were all white.
Nowadays, I'm not denying anyone anything. All I am doing is not participate in section 8 program. Perhaps one day in the future I will do it again. But for the moment, my current strategy is working wonderfully for me without participating in section 8 program.
- Contractor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2016 · 267 posts · 144 votes5y
@James York Obviously no one in this thread is objecting to Section 8 tenants due to the color of their skin so the reason for the law is irrelevant, however well intentioned.
No one is against equal housing opportunity, the market can make rational decisions on its own. And the reasons why are all well established in the above posts.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, DC · Member since 2017 · 109 posts · 93 votes5y
Originally posted by @Richard A Gibboney Jr:
Are you getting more than market rent for the property?
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes5y
Originally posted by @Richard A Gibboney Jr:
I have a section 8 rental in Washington DC now worth $410,000 I paid $160,000 4 or 5 years ago.
I went section 8 because the neighborhood was not that great and in Wash DC it can take 6 months to evict so I choose the guaranteed income approach and I got a full deposit.
1) I failed a Section 8 inspection for the broken window latch, in a closet on the third floor on the third inspection
2) Mysterious thing "break" dining room chandelier, two exterior lights. ( before I purchased the house was VACANT for one year and nothing like this happened)
3) self entitled attitude of occupants who are living for free
4) house is DIRTY- really just broom sweep my beautiful hardwood floors.
5) difficult to get them out.
6) rent increases of 3% is WAY under market.
7) with Covid tenant does not want me in house
8) the 1099 income is fully taxable
I got news for you, all your rent is fully taxable in all situations regardless if you get a 1099 or not. Not reporting your rental income is tax evasion.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Member since 2018 · 71 posts · 50 votes5y
@James York,
I have half a dozen SFH rentals - all rented exclusively to Section 8 tenants. Everything being the same, if I have a choice between Section 8 and non-Section 8, I will go with Section 8 each and every time.
That said, there are many myths with section 8 tenants that people tend to ignore or misinformed. As a landlord, I have very little credit risk with the Section 8 tenants. In my particular market, I get great rent - better than market I’d say. My tenants are also long term. I have a tenant who’s been with me for 18 years. Managed well, Section 8 tenants will behave well as well. Because if you evict them for cause, they lose the voucher - can you think someone trying to put their 2000$+ a month welfare benefit on the line because they didn’t pay 200$ on time or mess up the property. But the key is, to make sure you do everything right and then carry the invisible eviction stick.
The downside is the inspection process - especially before on boarding a new tenant. The level of detail is insane and since they started sending private inspectors, who most likely want to come back, have a great incentive to fail the inspection so they nitpick at the tiniest of the things. Other than the initial inspections, I got no gripe. I just wish I bought more properties...
- Member since 2018 · 71 posts · 50 votes5y
@Lam N.
Totally agreed about the inspectors. Especially the inspectors in my market are private contractors so in order to score an extra visit, they will fail the inspection for random, tiniest of the things.
As for tenants trashing the place, I learnt that if you evict them for cause, they lose the voucher. I use that threat effectively to keep things in order. Next time a tenant trashes the place, evict them for cause. They will lose the voucher for life.
- Member since 2018 · 71 posts · 50 votes5y
@Jonathan Hulen
Wellsaid. I too felt the same dealing with them. Then I realized there is a board of directors at the county level - people elected by the public - whose job is to oversee the housing folks. So, I reached out to them when the housing folks stonewalled me (this was several years ago so I don’t even remember what the issue was), and lo and behold, the issue got resolved in a day.
For any employee, there’s a guy above the guy. So reach out to the “guy above” and reason with them. Most likely the issue will be resolved.
- 5yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Prithvi Sri:
@Lam N.
Totally agreed about the inspectors. Especially the inspectors in my market are private contractors so in order to score an extra visit, they will fail the inspection for random, tiniest of the things.
As for tenants trashing the place, I learnt that if you evict them for cause, they lose the voucher. I use that threat effectively to keep things in order. Next time a tenant trashes the place, evict them for cause. They will lose the voucher for life.
I guess that works in some markets were we had section 8 that was a non starter.. they could care less if your unit was trashed
- Member since 2020 · 7 posts · 4 votes5y
I called HUD today with some questions regarding Section 8 tenants and how to potentially opt in to the program. To my surprise I was told that in California as of January 1st 2021 landlords were not able to discriminate against section 8 tenants, and must weigh their applications equally. So essentially we're all potentially section 8 Landlords in California. Which personally I have no problem with. Housing is fantastically expensive in California, and if a fixed income senior or otherwise financially distressed person jumped through the excessive hoops needed to secure a voucher, I'd give them a shot as a tenant. Their tenant rights are the same as any other tenant. They have a huge incentive to not be evicted, as an eviction results in loss of the voucher.
- Member since 2020 · 7 posts · 4 votes5yOriginally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Will Stewart:
@James York I read the book a few months ago and completely agree with your sentiment. To think that an entire group of people were explicitly excluded by the government from one of the largest housing booms in our history (post-WWII) due to the color of their skin is mind boggling.
Maybe Section 8 isn’t the right answer- it might be building more government housing (as they have in the UK) or something else. I for one own mobile home parks and find they are a great way to offer home ownership to people that otherwise may rely on a Section 8 voucher.
Bottom line, I think there is (clearly) a lot of hate being thrown at people with Section 8 vouchers without much consideration for historical problems or discussion of ways to help solve the problem.
A rising tide lifts all boats and helping marginalized people and communities get out of poverty (through government programs, investment in education, etc) in the end helps everyone. Anyways, end of my rant, I’ll await the backlash about how I’m a socialist.
Do keep in mind if you read CCR's from the early century through about 1930.. there were many many different groups of people precluded by the CCR's from buying property not only those of color.. Its quite amazing to read those old documents..
Different cultures have different ways of living their lives.. you dont see a lot of other cultures ( at least here on the West coast were we are a melting pot) that have children before they are married.. And they have very strong parental guidance to the point of overbearing I guess you would say.. :)
Jay would you mind elaborating?
- Rental Property Investor · TN · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes5y
I had one family ask about Section 8 for my newly rehabbed Victorian house. I said I would look into it and they were invited to the open house.
They came--all 8 of them, including 6 very wild children, mom and grandma. Two kids proceeded to 'ride' down the banister with the grandma laughing about it. I had to stop that as unsafe. Then when showing another person the front parlor, there was another of the wild ones taking the decorative gas fireplace parts out of the fireplace, pulling away on the gas line connected to the burner. I stopped that kid. Then another kid came into the parlor and said there was pee on the bathroom floor. I can only guess it came from them.
So, nope, no section 8. Not only would I have been getting 6 unruly kids with no supervision, I could rent it for full price to a different mom, dad, retired police man grandpa and their one special needs, well behaved kid!
That Section 8 family loved the nicely redone house, but they would have destroyed it and the adults did not try to teach the wild ones how to behave.
- 5yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Chelsea Parisio:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:Originally posted by @Will Stewart:
@James York I read the book a few months ago and completely agree with your sentiment. To think that an entire group of people were explicitly excluded by the government from one of the largest housing booms in our history (post-WWII) due to the color of their skin is mind boggling.
Maybe Section 8 isn’t the right answer- it might be building more government housing (as they have in the UK) or something else. I for one own mobile home parks and find they are a great way to offer home ownership to people that otherwise may rely on a Section 8 voucher.
Bottom line, I think there is (clearly) a lot of hate being thrown at people with Section 8 vouchers without much consideration for historical problems or discussion of ways to help solve the problem.
A rising tide lifts all boats and helping marginalized people and communities get out of poverty (through government programs, investment in education, etc) in the end helps everyone. Anyways, end of my rant, I’ll await the backlash about how I’m a socialist.
Do keep in mind if you read CCR's from the early century through about 1930.. there were many many different groups of people precluded by the CCR's from buying property not only those of color.. Its quite amazing to read those old documents..
Different cultures have different ways of living their lives.. you dont see a lot of other cultures ( at least here on the West coast were we are a melting pot) that have children before they are married.. And they have very strong parental guidance to the point of overbearing I guess you would say.. :)
Jay would you mind elaborating?
without going into the Tulles .. think of Race Religion and Creed the corner stone of discrimination.. the old CCRs had all of that. Along with No Chickens or swine..
- Rental Property Investor · TN · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes5y
Originally posted by @Chelsea Parisio:
I called HUD today with some questions regarding Section 8 tenants and how to potentially opt in to the program. To my surprise I was told that in California as of January 1st 2021 landlords were not able to discriminate against section 8 tenants, and must weigh their applications equally. So essentially we're all potentially section 8 Landlords in California. Which personally I have no problem with. Housing is fantastically expensive in California, and if a fixed income senior or otherwise financially distressed person jumped through the excessive hoops needed to secure a voucher, I'd give them a shot as a tenant. Their tenant rights are the same as any other tenant. They have a huge incentive to not be evicted, as an eviction results in loss of the voucher.
Although everyone has to accept Section 8 in CA, realistically, often the allowable rent rate for Section 8 is lower that many landlords will accept, at least for a new renter. So in that case the Section 8 renter is excluded.
And in some cases the house will physically not qualify and they can not 'make' you do the improvements so it does qualify.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2020 · 758 posts · 285 votes5y
1. Property damage concerns
2. Wear and tear concerns
3. The maximum amount section 8 shall pay.
- Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes5y
I used to only rent section 8 when I first started. Overwhelmingly, I have a reasonably positive experience. As you noted, I happened to own in gentrifying areas, so rents have outpaced section 8 approved rents.
Regarding the inspections, I understand the move-in inspection and making sure things are correct. But for me it is the annual re-inspection and the list of repairs I have to make each time. I am essentially "turning over" the unit every year, to the tune of a couple thousand dollars, just to handle normal wear and tear and things that would not otherwise be an issue every year. Add to that things like: broken outlet cover. In the 15 yrs I have been a homeowner, I have NEVER broken an outlet cover. The outlet cover wasn't broken when I leased the space to the tenant, and yet on my annual inspections, there are always 2-3 broken outlet or light switch cover plates, that I am responsible for fixing. I know this is a small thing and a cheap fix, but it gets frustrating year after year. I have failed an inspection, because my tenant threw her clothes on the basement stairs as they were dirty. It was her responsibility to clean it before the next inspection, but my rent got deferred a month because of it.
- Rental Property Investor · Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2017 · 20 posts · 11 votes5y
@James York
For all reasons cited in this thread, section 8 is not ideal for “prime” rentals that can attract reliable tenants. I’ve had success with section 8 tenants in the C/D multi family properties. For example, we have a 5 unit with several studio-sized apartments that are not desirable for most “stable” renters. We’ve done well renting these units through sx8 which pays about $200/mo more than we’d expect from regular tenant. Because the process for sx8 renters is difficult (eg not many landlords want to rent to them, low inventory, voucher waitlist) they tend to stay in place. In my case with these studios, they tend to attract grifters. Even if the sx8 person wants to move, they have to weigh that against the challenges they will face transferring their voucher elsewhere.
Also, less square footage for a tenant to mess up = less turnover cost. In my experience, section 8 is ideal for hard to lease smaller units.
- Rental Property Investor · New York NY (brooklyn, ny) · Member since 2019 · 76 posts · 79 votes5y
Managing local bureaucracy is never fun. I also admit that we do not have any section 8 rentals - circumstance less any other reason. However, avoiding section 8 for the "type" of tenant is indeed 100% racist. As many pointed out, you can't lump the entire group of tenants together. Being section 8 doesn't make them more messy, or less reliable. Just like you wouldn't say, "that market rate person who didn't give notice and moved out means I'll never accept market rate tenants again!". To the OP, we are also concerned about not perpetuating a system of inequity and our strategy is two-fold: We try not to take housing stock that would otherwise go to owner-residents (SFHs and Duplexes make us a little uncomfortable) AND when we buy, we make the numbers work with current tenants (versus buying with expectation we'll have to evict, turn, and lease to get market rates). It's something small, we do our best.
- Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes5y
I have had some horrible and some outstanding section 8 rentals just like in my retail rentals. Most of my horrible one´s where when I was a rookie. Placing biased and prejudiced perspectives on it means many of you lack the ability to manage or screen. In a lot of cases it´s due to you already having a preconceived negative attitude going in. I guess I get the part about not wanting to deal with inspections and bureaucracy; that sucks in most cases. However, alluding to the notion that they are lazy, will destroy your property or bring dysfunction is no different than saying a specific race will do it. That is identical to how they used jim crow and redlining. Have any of you listened to anything Dr. Joe has said? If these things consistently occur with your section 8 rentals while others tell you it doesnt with theirs, it would be intelligent to examine what you are doing different. If you know how to screen tenants and manage them without bias you will be fine. I will never forget that in this site on several occasions I heard a member insisting that section 8 rentals needed animal cages. Maybe some of you don´t mean this per se but in general your mindset is embracing clear and precise dog whistles that are utilized to marginalize groups, targeting them for discrimination. These are the very insinuations made towards my parents when seeking housing in the 60s and it was based on skin tone alone. When you get a voucher, instead of jumping on the first thinking you made out with steady rent, SCREEN!!!
- 5yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Nick Hundertmark:
@James York
For all reasons cited in this thread, section 8 is not ideal for “prime” rentals that can attract reliable tenants. I’ve had success with section 8 tenants in the C/D multi family properties. For example, we have a 5 unit with several studio-sized apartments that are not desirable for most “stable” renters. We’ve done well renting these units through sx8 which pays about $200/mo more than we’d expect from regular tenant. Because the process for sx8 renters is difficult (eg not many landlords want to rent to them, low inventory, voucher waitlist) they tend to stay in place. In my case with these studios, they tend to attract grifters. Even if the sx8 person wants to move, they have to weigh that against the challenges they will face transferring their voucher elsewhere.
Also, less square footage for a tenant to mess up = less turnover cost. In my experience, section 8 is ideal for hard to lease smaller units.
My experience in MS was that section 8 was indeed higher than market rents.. and C D market rent tenants in those areas are VERY tough to manage so Section 8 is preferred for the landlord even with all its hurdles.
- 5yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Mark Cruse:
I have had some horrible and some outstanding section 8 rentals just like in my retail rentals. Most of my horrible one´s where when I was a rookie. Placing biased and prejudiced perspectives on it means many of you lack the ability to manage or screen. In a lot of cases it´s due to you already having a preconceived negative attitude going in. I guess I get the part about not wanting to deal with inspections and bureaucracy; that sucks in most cases. However, alluding to the notion that they are lazy, will destroy your property or bring dysfunction is no different than saying a specific race will do it. That is identical to how they used jim crow and redlining. Have any of you listened to anything Dr. Joe has said? If these things consistently occur with your section 8 rentals while others tell you it doesnt with theirs, it would be intelligent to examine what you are doing different. If you know how to screen tenants and manage them without bias you will be fine. I will never forget that in this site on several occasions I heard a member insisting that section 8 rentals needed animal cages. Maybe some of you don´t mean this per se but in general your mindset is embracing clear and precise dog whistles that are utilized to marginalize groups, targeting them for discrimination. These are the very insinuations made towards my parents when seeking housing in the 60s and it was based on skin tone alone. When you get a voucher, instead of jumping on the first thinking you made out with steady rent, SCREEN!!!
Depending on the city some areas the renter pool is basically 80 to 90% people of color.. and they all live somewhere.. so as you allude to screening is CRITICAL for a section 8 landlord just as its Critical for market rate tenants.. you dont need to be looking at Color or what part of the world is someone from to figure out there are professional tenants out there. Bad tenant is simply a bad tenant full stop.. nothing else matters.
Its kind of wild these days.. I grew up in Cupertino CA.. ( land of Apple) Before apple existed.. this community was 99% Caucasian.
When I go back to the area usually for speaking engagements.. I drive through my old hood..
its now I would say 70% Asian and 20% folks from India and countries by India.. I saw the Cupertino high marching band at a SF 49er game and they were all Asian every single one of them.. So neighborhoods change and folks from around the world will gather in one spot were they feel comfortable and safe.. Most all the stores have dual signs on them..
When I had all my rentals in Jackson MS which is 80% people of Color and i spent a year there in my PM's office daily working on my deals.
I did note that the local citizens also wanted the best areas they could afford and the locals so even though the City has this impression of Deep South issues. the folks that live there also figure out where is the best schools and safest neighborhoods they can afford Just like anyone else would do.
So you can buy in a CD area a beat up rental say in WEst or South Jackson fo10 to 50k.. or you can go to Fondren area and pay 100k to 150k same people .. or North east a Jackson where houses are 100k to 300k.. all the same population race wise.. So in my mind peeps are peeps.
And all people want to live as I stated where they feel comfortable..
I spent my summers in Milwaukee WIS in the 60s.. And like all big cities of the mid west and East.. these were very divided by nationality where did the Grandparent immigrate from.. the Germans lived here the Irish lived there the Polish lived here the Italians there. and then these areas can further be divided by religion.. Of course NYC is the poster child for etheric and religious redlining..
When I worked in Detroit there were areas I saw that had a huge number of Indians that wear the big turban not sure which sect they are so don't want to make a boo boo. But I think you get the point..
Living here in Oregon other than a very small % of an area of North Portland Oregon has a very small Black population but one of the highest section 8s per capta wise.. So its certainly not a stereo type here that all section 8 is people of color in fact its the exact opposite.. 90% section 8 are not .. Believe me I have been buying distressed real estate in Oregon for 25 years some of the absolute biggest pigs and hoarders live in this area.. to the extent I have had to demo over 6 homes that homeowners destroyed just living there.
- Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes5y
There're other minority groups that need housing as well other than sec8, namely hardworking undocumented immigrant (no SSN) and refugee housing(just arrived from Turkey a few days ago). In our area most applicants are in the first category, almost none section 8. For refugees, the organization is also paying for them for the first few months. Both groups are very hardworking and extremely grateful when housing is provided to them, none has trashed the houses. Some folks in that undocumented immigrant category actually has more buying power than the 'regular tenant'.
Now if people of color is the landlord and giving housing to the minority , hope nobody label it as racist hahaha - Real Estate Agent · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2020 · 111 posts · 51 votes5y
I am genuinely sick and tired of people trashing an entire sector of tenants just because they are in a different situation that you might not understand. I believe that section 8 tenants are great tenants because the threat of losing their housing is constantly looming over their heads. If you were to move a section 8 tenant into a $700/month property vs a market tenant, typically the section 8 tenant would be a renewal tenant, staying 3-5 years, versus your 1-2 market tenant. The inspections require a slightly higher quality of living, but if you are genuinely doing good within a community and providing a means of public housing, the inspectors will develop a relationship with you and things will be smooth sailing. Just do your research and run the tenant like normal and collect that guaranteed money on the first of every month!
- Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes5y
@Jay Hinrichs :
its now I would say 70% Asian and 20% folks from India and countries by India.. I saw the Cupertino high marching band at a SF 49er game and they were all Asian every single one of them.. So neighborhoods change and folks from around the world will gather in one spot were they feel comfortable and safe.. Most all the stores have dual signs on them..
>>>>
This is why in Bay Area playing 'race card' is a bit funny as the immigrant, regardless they're documented or undocumented', has more buying power than even the so called 'regular tenant' in other areas. - Property Manager / Licensed Realtor · Toledo/Columbus, OH · Member since 2019 · 244 posts · 262 votes5y
I have had nothing but positive experience in Akron and Cleveland. The residents are fair, the program is fair etc. I have had my rentals for about 6 years, my section 8 residents are original (Moved in before I acquired the properties) and have had nothing but positive interactions. I also vet my residents the same, whether they are paying based on community or private, I think this is where some owners may find a sticky situation, but ultimately, I am very pleased with my group of residents.
- Port Chester, NY · Member since 2016 · 210 posts · 157 votes5y
We've had mixed success. Not so great in Bridgeport, Stratford or upstate NY. Little issues with one's in Stamford though. It's nice to have the guaranteed payment, but I also realize that some are just so lazy that their actions hurt their offspring. Thus, they follow in their footsteps. Rarely do they ever break away from the section 8/HAP/gov't help life. It's sad, but they do not know better. Literally, I had to go over the weekend to replace a lightbulb. The tenant didn't know why her lights were out. All she had were old incandescent lightbulbs which she said they were new. They also do not know not to spill grease or oil down the sink. Sigh.
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