This is a long story, but I'll spare you the details. A tenant has been with us for four months and problematic since day one. She's from a particular state where people are known to be entitled and demanding and think highly of themselves, so we just thought she was "one of those people" and tried our best to handle her professionally while keeping our distance. Her parents live in the same apartment building and are extremely nice and helpful. When their daughter makes crazy accusations, they'll roll their eyes or ask her to go inside her apartment. Yesterday her mom actually locked their apartment door and refused to speak with their daughter. We received dozens of phone calls, long, rambling voicemails, and lots of text messages. Even when I set an appointment to meet her in 30 minutes, she still called and left a two-minute voicemail just repeating her complaint. After I addressed her concern, she called the owner for 30 minutes to complain about the problem and how I refuse to fix it. Then she sent another dozen texts to me at work, followed by several crazy reviews on Yelp and facebook groups. I've had two mentally ill tenants that behaved the same way. One was evicted in 2014 (my last court eviction!). The other one (brain injury from car accident) was from a very wealthy family in Texas. Her family attorney was in contact with me for bill payment and a few other matters, so I was able to explain the situation and the family agreed to have her moved back to Texas. I can't afford for my staff to spend this much time on one person or the stress that comes with it. I want to evict the tenant, but she's so irrational that I suspect it would take a court order. I plan to speak with the parents and see if they'll either get her under control or they can all move out without penalty. How would you handle it?

@Nathan G., I'd cut that cord as quickly as possible. We always do M2M leases for tenants like that. I simply say "If you aren't happy here, all we need is a 30-day notice of non-renewal." I always tell people-- the door swings both ways, it cuts out the need for court and proving who did what wrong, simple and easy. Of the problems tenants we ended the relationships, I regret none of them. The only thing I regret is dealing with their BS for as long as I did, should have pulled the cord quicker.

@John Underwood she has eight months left on the lease, so I'm not in the mood to wait it out. I'm preparing a letter regarding a lease violation (two unauthorized dogs) and a review of her unacceptable behavior. I'll offer to let her leave with 14 days notice and no termination penalty. If she insists on staying, I'll hold her to the letter of the lease which includes some fines.

@Jill F. Unfortunately, some people in the forums are extremely sensitive. I've used "crazy" and other terms to describe people that are likely mentally ill. That doesn't mean I speak that way directly to them or that I mistreat them in anyway. I'm certain my treatment of others, even really bad tenants, is above reproach. My words when talking to other investors may be more harsh. Our entire society is becoming too sensitive, too weak, too soft. It's crazy. (see what I did there?)

@David Goodman I'm not sure where you see me stigmatizing mental illness. She's sick and I'm going to treat her with kid gloves, but I also can't run my business to suit her illness. If she can't get herself under control, I'll have to move forward with eviction. That's all business and there's no attack on her or people that are mentally ill.

@Nathan G. @David Goodman Nathan, That was probably more directed at me for talking about 'crazy' tenants. After spending 5 years here in D neighborhood world, where untreated mental illness is rampant, I've come to see 'mental health issues' as a spectrum and those people that are unwilling to seek treatment and that visit their 'issues' on their poor neighbors that can't afford to move, just have TO GO. It's systemic too, a homeless encampment would *NEVER* fly in the neighborhood where I live; but the city let one stay for over two years by my apartments. I view it as my job to make sure that my good tenants and my neighbors in EVERY asset class where I own get the quiet enjoyment that they pay for and deserve. I do not let the homeless sleep in my halls and basement, I chase off the meth addicts having sex on my porch, and call the cops when the addicts OD in the parking lot. I bought one building that was chalk full of crazy. What do you do when the neighbors complain about your 13 year old tenant that raped a five year old looking at their kids?? His father raped him when the father was still a minor and dear ol' dads girlfriend kept getting pregnant, and for entertainment she'd get drunk and fist fight the neighbors in the alley (while pregnant) and they'd take her babies away at the hospital (5 babies), -- the grandmother wanted me to install a dead bolt on the outside of the kid rapists bedroom door. And what about the guy that got mad and killed the neighbors children's cat? . oh and I had one that threatened to break all the windows and burn down the building because we had to come into her apartment and fix a toilet leaking into an apartment below her. And then there have been the animal hoarders. OMG there are some sick puppies out there. 'Mental health issues' just doesn't do it justice. But you know what I was able to negotiate an exit plan with all those people, some who were profoundly sick... the only one I was completely unable to reason with was a text-book narcissist I inherited (he had 5 previous evictions and had been in a fist fight with his last landlord- who was a real snake but that's another story). He's still my only eviction. It's maybe not 'nice' to call mentally ill people 'crazy' but sometimes that's still the most apt description of the behavior. The local EMT's thanked me for cleaning out that building and so did the neighbors. You don't get into landlording because you want to win a popularity contest. But one of the main reasons that I think, that I am successful in D neighborhood world, and that I have an average tenancy of 51 months is because I do care about my tenants and if you can't be civil and behave then you can't stay in my apartments. The mantra of slumlords everywhere is "I can't help how people live". Yes. you. can. if it's your building. We as a society need to do something about the severely mentally ill; Especially the unsympathetic cases. Right now, they give them $750/month in disability and they're pretty much on their own and their f*d up relatives who are their payees usually steal a couple hundred of that from them every month. it's tough out there. But it is extremely unfair to structure things so that the poor people stuck with no options but living in poor neighborhoods have to deal with all the 'crazy' and it's just wrong on so many levels to insist that private landlords with no special training house these people. No. Reagan screwed up when he closed all the mental hospitals.

God Bless you for housing these folks.. takes a special person personality to deal with what your doing.

Dear crazy tenant, We will not be renewing your month-to-month lease effective mm/dd/yyyy. Any future communications will be conducted via email and any urgent problems should be reported via our problem reporting software (per the terms of our lease). Please leave the apartment clean and empty and leave your key and garage door opener on the kitchen counter. email us when you have vacated the premises so that we may secure the unit. We wish you all the best. -Management ***M2M for the win when the crazy sneaks in***

@Nathan G. Is it also a situation where she's disrupting the quiet enjoyment of any tenants nearby? I would think that alone would be enough to get her out. We have one like this, (though not as bad), and we always know when she's off her meds. Sounds like you are on the right track with talking to her folks. Though they may get her under control in the short term but inevitably it will go right back to trouble. Hopefully you can get them to move voluntarily. Good luck!

They are not legal guardians. They moved here at the same time, but the parents and the daughter applied separately and were approved on their own merits. Technically, I shouldn't be discussing her situation with the parents even though they are related. The parents are on a separate lease so none of this is their concern.

How do you deal with a mentally ill, problematic Tenant?

Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

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OP

Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

@Colleen F. I only talk to her parents because they live in the same complex. The parents are not on the daughter's lease, so I don't discuss the daughter with her parents. On Monday I spoke with her dad for 15 minutes while his daughter ranted and insulted me from five feet away. The dad kept asking her to go inside. Not once did I say anything about her to the dad or ask him to correct her. I treat them like two separate entities and will continue to do so.

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Drew SygitBusiness Member

Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes

5y

Use your camera phone to subtly video EVERY encounter with her and her parents, to protect yourself from future claims & lawsuits. Save them in Dropbox or something similar.

If she makes any threats against you, your business, employees, family, etc, get a court restraining order against her.

Start the eviction process to start a clock for everyone to come up with a solution.

[email protected]248-209-6824

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Colleen F.Pro Member

Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes

5y

@Nathan Gesner your first post said " I plan to speak with the parents and see if they'll either get her under control or they can all move out without penalty." So while I didn't think you routinely spoke to them about her situation I got the impression you were planned to approach them on the termination at some point based on the above statement.

Me I would not have stood there for 15 minutes without comment. If another tenant was interrupting I would have said maybe we can talk when we are undisturbed.

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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OP
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
5y
Originally posted by @Colleen F.:
@Nathan Gesner your first post said " I plan to speak with the parents and see if they'll either get her under control or they can all move out without penalty." So while I didn't think you routinely spoke to them about her situation I got the impression you were planned to approach them on the termination at some point based on the above statement.
Me I would not have stood there for 15 minutes without comment. If another tenant was interrupting I would have said maybe we can talk when we are undisturbed.

@Colleen F. Wow, I did say that! To be fair, I may have had a drink or two. I haven't spoken to the parents at all, except to discuss their maintenance issue which was also promptly resolved and I received quite the praise for it. I just sent the tenant a letter explaining her options and anticipate more heated responses soon. It's basically an offer for her to leave without penalty or to stay and play according to the rules, which starts with an animal violation fee and one week to remedy it or face additional penalties.
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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

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OP

Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

5y

UPDATE: she added the following picture to her Yelp review. Since its public, it's OK to share. This is a picture of her in the ambulance. She also shared her hospital discharge papers, which clearly show she was suffering from dehydration, low potassium, and hypokalemia (dehydration usually brought on by diuretics).

We get all the reports, so I know the ambulance picked her up at 5:48. Her discharge papers from the ER (which she shared publicly and gave me a copy of) show that she was released about two hours later. The discharge says she was sent home with instructions to hydrate. No mention of poisoning from noxious gases. Hmm...

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Account Closed

Member since 2021 · 237 posts · 153 votes

5y

@Nathan G.

Mitigate losses. Money. Time. Sanity.

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Bruce WoodruffPro Member

Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @David Goodman:

@Nathan G.

Let’s be careful not to stigmatize mental Illness.

I operate a couple recovery homes, and work with people who have mental health issues.

If it were me, I’m willing to do a little extra work and see if we can make this work. I think I’d try to find out if she’s actively working through some of her issues with mental health services. If she isn’t, the problems will not resolve themselves. If she is, I’m willing to see if she can get it together.

Also - if she continued to be a problem, I consider raising her rent to a number that made sense for the amount of time and energy needed to manage her unit.

Wrong on all counts. OP is running a business here, not a recovery house. I'm sure he's a nice guy and all that, but you're asking him to suffer - mentally, emotionally and financially.....not to mention the other tenants and residents of the premises and area. All for one poor troubled soul. I don't think that even makes sense in your world. And to accuse him of stigmatizing this means you need to look up that word. He is simply describing the situation. I understand that you're in this business - and therefore prejudiced - but look at from his eyes not hers. She is a risk to his business, his property, himself and his other tenants.

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Colleen F.Pro Member

Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes

5y

@Nathan Gesner wow now you get hospital discharge info, definitely TMI.. waiting to see how she responds to cure or quit.

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Christen G.

Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2017 · 383 posts · 248 votes

5y

I'm sorry this is happening. If I were you, and I've had glimmers of this - I would stay above boards as you are. Don't give her more time than she absolutely needs. Keep the - "Let's meet at 2:15 to discuss your complaints, I have 15 min" and then if there are real complaints, deal with those as you would anyone else. And hard out after 15 min. Hopefully in that time you can express some of your concerns about her behaviour and show her that you are listening and care about reasonable issues. If said issues are made up and irrational, I would simply say, "Hey this doesn't seem to be a good fit for either of us, I'd be happy to let you out of your lease early with no penalty - why don't you think about that and get back to me?" And help her move on. If she refuses to - you and the staff should set hard boundaries for the next 7 mo and do not renew. As for the parents, I think it's ok to mention your talk with their daughter to them under the pretense of 'concern for her unhappiness with the building' but I wouldn't get too deep there. Ugh best of luck, pal.

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Mike Dymski

Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @David Goodman:

@Nathan G.

Let’s be careful not to stigmatize mental Illness.

I operate a couple recovery homes, and work with people who have mental health issues.

If it were me, I’m willing to do a little extra work and see if we can make this work. I think I’d try to find out if she’s actively working through some of her issues with mental health services. If she isn’t, the problems will not resolve themselves. If she is, I’m willing to see if she can get it together.

Also - if she continued to be a problem, I consider raising her rent to a number that made sense for the amount of time and energy needed to manage her unit.

We are not trained or qualified to assess mental illnesses and their resolution. And the appropriate rent to do so would not be feasible.

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Raquel D.

Investor · Shakopee, MN · Member since 2017 · 102 posts · 60 votes

5y

I have a similar situation... Man and woman with a young child, and the woman is definitely mentally ill. They seemed okay at first, but then after one heat issue about 6 weeks after they moved in that got dealt with very quickly, she told the PM that she was sick of "issue after issue" with the place.

Next, she fixated on the lights. She insisted the halls weren't bright enough (this is a 4plex with a common area, 2 up, 2 down), so I installed extra motion lights. (Also, there are additional interior and exterior lights on a timer that go off when it's dark outside.) When the motion lights weren't enough, I had the PM send a notice to every tenant in the building that they could install a motion light of their choosing and I'd reimburse up to $30. No takers - not even her.

She sent messages and emails to the PM threatening to sue, saying she had fallen down the stairs multiple times, that her friends and family kept falling down the stairs. She claimed she messed up her knee multiple times. I think to-date she's said something like 30 people have fallen down the stairs - including a police officer who she allegedly called because she rents from a "slumlord." She also posted notes around the building about how she was suing me.

After multiple warnings not to fill kiddy pools in the backyard, which is a space for all tenants to share, a lock was placed on the hose and she called the police on me. The poor officer was so confused... there was no criminal action so there was nothing to do. (The tenant did actually throw something at my partner, but she missed by a mile and we didn't want to see her get in actual legal trouble.)

She sends long messages to the PM that often start with complaints/threats, turn to apology and desire to make things right, then go back to threats, all in the same text/email. She calls the PM really terrible names about her physical appearance. She's made physical threats to me and the PM on multiple occasions.

She found my personal contact info and facebook page and started sending me threatening messages directly. I asked her to stop contacting me. She still sent several more messages, so if it continues, I could file for a harassment restraining order.

The tenants are also filthy. They leave trash and personal items in the hallway and don't respond to notices to clean it up. They leave trash all over the yard. They have dogs and don't pick up the poop (my mower almost quit on me over it). I let them have a grill and they dump charcoal in the parking lot.

They also have 2 dogs allowed under their lease, and they have a third dog now.

My PM said even with moratoriums lifted, this isn't enough to evict - the trash, the failure to respond to notices, the lease violations, the harassment - so we got them to sign an amendment to their lease to agree to 8/31/21 at the ending date (rather than spring of 2022), and immediately sent a notice to vacate. (I'm in MN - would love to hear anyone else's input on this, because I can't believe repeated lease violations, a third pet, and harassment isn't enough!)

Sounded like an okay result... Except now she is sending threats to the PM again, saying we can't force them to leave. So I have no idea what comes next. We haven't advertised the unit for rent yet because I was nervous that she wouldn't leave.

Good luck with your tenant. This is such a difficult thing to deal with because on a personal level, I wish this tenant would seek help because she is clearly deeply unhappy with her life. But on a business level, she needs to go away - I have a PM and I was still spending 3-6 hours a week on her complaints and threats.

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David Dachtera

Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

@David Dachtera I don't use an attorney very often. I can typically figure things out on my own.

The law is not a question of "figuring things out". It's a question of knowing not only the law but how the court is likely interpret it (case law - maybe not the same as your opinion / conclusion).

That said, you came here for help "figuring things out". Why not seek educated / experienced / professional / qualified input?

I know you think you're saving money not using legal professionals ... ask yourself: how much money can you AFFORD to save?

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Jill F.

Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes

5y

Originally posted by @Raquel D.: