City just stripped my STR license!

City just stripped my STR license!

Member since 2022 · 47 posts · 12 votes

Im hoping to find a solution, so I'm hoping by putting this out there that i might have some luck with some of you more seasoned STR/Real Estate aficionados… After hosting exclusively with Airbnb for the last few years, the city of Denver just stripped my license away in the most ridiculous "hearing" I've ever witnessed, let alone been involved in. Its my only property and have maintained a 5 star rating since its first quarter and have over 300 ratings. Not bad for a lil bungalow! It was intended as a second income stream as i had a brick and mortar shop downtown where i was full time for 13 years. Cooties-19 shut my business down in March 2020, right as i made my way into the hospital and a much less anticipated and extended respite for the following year. My personal business was destroyed and i lost nearly every single client, but after the entire month of April 2020 had cancelled reservations, (thanks for "having our back" Airbnb) thankfully May picked right back up and i had some folks that stepped in to help me while i was away. After having the chance to get back to things in the summer of ‘21 and now as my only income, i had to rent another house to stay at so that i could continue with Airbnb, which up until now, is the only thing that saved me from losing my home.

Last December i renew the license as always, except anticipating a response in January this year turned into mid July when i was told it was denied and i could appeal and set a hearing date. Which occurred just yesterday. Another big shout out to Airbnb for freezing my calendar in Feb this year because Denver took its sweet A$$ time! Anyhow, Denver says that the property was not my primary address, and in the words of its attack dog, Linebarger Analytics, had reported that i was receiving mail at another address in late 2020, but failed to uncover the mail carrier which was bitten by a neighbors dog causing a subsequent halt to mail delivery for the entire block for nearly two months, ergo the need to forward the mail. Within that time i had rescinded the forwarding request and delivery commenced as normal. The report also failed to mention that, and added that for some unknown reason i stopped receiving mail just this last Dec ‘22.

As expected, during the hearing i had a stack of mail from the last 6 months as i queried where this idea had come from. There was some back and forth but in short time they realized that at no point was i ever receiving mail at another address other than when i had no choice. Their line of questioning quickly pivoted to my daughter, where she goes to school, where i sleep and questions for which any answer would never suffice the deaf ears of ideologues. 

Now, the meat of it…. Nowhere in the code will you find what "primary residency" actually means, but you will find what the directors interpretation of what it means, and for the purposes of STR REGULATIONS ONLY. Primary residency, as far as i can tell is used for tax and voting registration purposes only. It is not defined elsewhere and in spite of any glaring contradictions, the city, nor the 90lb suit they put in front of the camera to represent the DA's office can admit these contradictions because alas, they work in their favor. Honestly ill pretend for a minute that the Director (excise and license) sits upon the Supreme Court Artifice of STR and was duly elected to interpret city regulations as law. Can someone tell me how, with no limitations on how many days/nights a host can make their STR available each year, can the director ALSO claim that this is not a host's regular place of return if the host has no other "regular place of return" insofar as voting registration, tax purposes, receiving mail. This is just iterated as "elsewhere", and where if 51% or more nights out of the year are booked at this STR (and again, no limits on how many nights a host can make it available), then "elsewhere" supplants a primary address and your STR license thusly. Even when elsewhere has no address.

I sat quietly, remained composed and had politely posed these questions and instead of a reasonable and plain English response my feeble mind could understand i met the ire of ideologues. No quicker had the issue of addressing me, and in my own hearing about my primary address been forgotten but now both the suit and the judge in near perfect harmony revealed some of their cards by addressing Hosts at large and how WE are the problem and how we collectively are contributing to the housing crisis. It became crystal f'ing clear at this point that whether i had been guilty or not there was no way the city was letting me walk away (or stop the zoom call) with my STR license intact. This was their raison d'étre all along, and i went in prepared to fight an entirely different game! The hearing closed with a duet, parroting woes of the housing shortage and how "we all have to do our part"… Ill spare the you 10 additional pages it would take to transcribe the rage after hearing this statement bear its full weight upon the pan opposite of mine on the scale. Now my only source of income is gone, because in the opinion of the Ubermensch, er i mean Director, has the air of an investment.

So what are my options? Put house in a trust, file another LLC and apply for a new license? Sign a lease to a trustee and have them put a new STR license in their name? Either way i lose the last 5 years of work and reputation i built on a platform so prepared to stab its "partners" in the back. Oh yea… Airbnb made sure to outfit the city with messages with guests, reviews, photos and i believe (possibly) geolocation data collected when using the app. None of which would strike me as prime facie evidence unless the court had put the defendant in a position to defend a negative, something unfamiliar to Americans, though perhaps should mull over the possibility of something to get used to.

If you made it this far, heck ya! You rock and thanks so much for letting me take up your time. Any input would be greatly appreciated! 

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Dave StokleyBusiness Member
Property Manager · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 705 posts · 799 votes
3y

If I were you here’s what I do:

1. Look for a local lawyer who is experienced with this.

2. Contact Mile High Hosts, which I think is affiliated with Rent Responsibly. They appear to be active in helping defend hosts in these situations. https://www.milehighhosts.org/

3. Dial back the “Cooties-19” and calling people “ideologues” and “suits.” There’s just no world in which that’s gonna help your case.

Good luck!


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  • Member since 2022 · 47 posts · 12 votes
    3y
    Quote from @JD Martin:

    Thoughts:

    1. Cities can and do have the right to regulate commercial activity unless their state takes that right away (which is generally not permitted under state constitutions) so you have that working against you anyway.

    2. The no mail thing on a block for 2 months honestly sounds like a lie. You really wouldn't expect a hearing (or anyone else) to believe that because a mailman got bit - something that probably happens all the time in the US - no one on the block was able to receive home-delivered mail for two months? Mail delivers typically cover very large areas - what happened to all the other blocks - they couldn't get mail for 2 months as well? Or the other mail carriers all stepped up to cover all the other routes except your one block? Come on now. 

    3. You said you moved to a rental house in order to keep renting this out as an AirBnb. Once you moved that became your primary residence. There is a definition of primary residence; you can look it up on the IRS site. In the case of the IRS it's designed to keep you from being able to just claim anywhere, anytime, selling properties without paying capital gains, paying taxes due, etc. 

    Honestly I think the best advice that was given to you is to sell and move on. Until it's determined that cities can't stop you from having STRs anywhere, anytime, they will be allowed to regulate this activity. You don't have to like it but you are/were obviously circumventing their regulations which is why your license was denied. Take your profit (no capital gains, it sounds like) and buy in another market where there's no regulation. 

    Clearly youre much smarter than i, and ill certainly think twice about challenging the city next time! People should really just leave all their personal affairs to the state. Thanks for the wisdom, its really opened my eyes!


    1. Cities can and do have the right to regulate commercial activity…

     A. Ok, great insight, i wasnt aware city municipalities had the power to supersede state constitution by way of reinterpreting jurisdictions

    2. The no mail thing on a block for 2 months honestly sounds like a lie

    A. Totally, in fact this whole thing is a charade. I dont even own a house, let alone a mailbox for a USPS carrier to deliver a mortgage. The two Belgian Malinois next door are just a spicy detail i like to use for engaging the minds of site contributors like yourself. Apologies for being such a Dastardly Dan, its just my modus operandi

    3. You said you moved to a rental house in order to keep renting this out as an AirBnb

    A. Let me move tongue from cheek first and ask, does Walmart policy dictate how you conduct your affairs? As an employee sure, because thats a contract. Ahem, sorry i should be asking you the questions…. Is the IRS a elected lawmaking body of government? What is the 16th Amendment and did it grant such a body NEW tax powers and jurisdiction for that power? Im not sure where anyone said anything about claiming more than one primary residence, although im sure it happens, but what does the IRS say about renting a house across the street from your PR in order to rent it? Since PR is assumably mortgaged, binding you to that property, and a rental is leased/temp, what is the policy if the PR remains PR without ever claiming another, even in another county? Like i said, PR is for tax purposes and voting registration but thats now a comparatively boring an moot point :) No Walmart wont dictate your life, but you are bound to adhere to its policies while under their employ. Otherwise it makes not one bit of difference what is or isn’t defined within those policies. Though, look where my own brain has got me so far, so maybe the apparat persuasion had it right all along

    Hey thanks again for being so respectful and opening me up to a new way of thinking, its priceless! 

  • Member since 2022 · 47 posts · 12 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Michael Baum:

    Hey @Seth Kristian, I pretty much echo the sell and move option.

    In the end there are a few STR owners vs the thousands of citizens that might be protesting the STRs in their backyard. There is no way to overcome that kind of advantage.


     I think thats what ill be planning on, thanks michael. Was fun while it lasted

  • Member since 2022 · 47 posts · 12 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Dan H.:

    I feel your pain. My STR market recently implemented a weighted lottery to implement an . In spite of having max weight in the lottery, one of our STRs was not chosen in the lottery. My family has operated this STR since 1999. It had thousands of positive reviews.

    We were forced to pivot.  The unit is now a MTR.  

    Rules change.  Rule changes are not always fair. 

    You may need to pivot.  You will need to determine whether that it is selling, switching to MTR, or some other option.  I suspect that fighting the city on this is not your best option.  

    Good luck


    Agreed and agreed. I wasnt sure about STR at first, but in spite of the stress it turned out alright! I have a calendar booked for the next 4-5 months which would prevent MTR (without cancelling them and incurring subsequent penalties from Airbnb i assume) so ill have to mull that one over a little. Either way, im honestly over it and the city is on a mission. It has nothing to do with me personally even when its hard not to take it that way in the moment. To sound off to you and the consensus, selling is likely the best option

  • Member since 2022 · 47 posts · 12 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Zach Edelman:

    This is a risk you run when you go the "metro market" approach versus doing STR in fly-to-vacation markets or drive-to vacation markets. Regulation risk is high. With all this said, have you considered the MTR approach? This is a common pivot for STR investors in metro markets that get rug pulled by city regulations.


     I have considered that and will likely need some insight for pivoting over to MTR. Ill reach out to ya, thanks Zach! 

  • Member since 2022 · 47 posts · 12 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Kelly Sennholz:
    Quote from @John Carbone:

    “Their line of questioning quickly pivoted to my daughter, where she goes to school, where i sleep”


    this line of questioning for renting out your house to someone…sounds like nazi Germany when they went around to houses looking for Jewish people. 

    First, this comment is very inappropriate. 

    Secondly, in a democracy, we work things out. The law and the political environment are the mechanisms for doing this. Sometimes, we are on the losing side of an argument, that is how democracies work. Your comparing this to Nazi Germany is insulting and ill informed.

    When corruption has played a part in how things go, that is wrong. We must support democracy full throatedly, in particular with all the openly anti-democracy folks floating around now. Buying a home is one of the most important financial decisions many can make to improve their lifelong wealth. We must support this, also, if we are to maintain the Horatio Algers America. That is a dream I believe in.


     * FIREWORKS *

    We’ll said!!

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Seth Kristian:
    Quote from @JD Martin:

    Thoughts:

    1. Cities can and do have the right to regulate commercial activity unless their state takes that right away (which is generally not permitted under state constitutions) so you have that working against you anyway.

    2. The no mail thing on a block for 2 months honestly sounds like a lie. You really wouldn't expect a hearing (or anyone else) to believe that because a mailman got bit - something that probably happens all the time in the US - no one on the block was able to receive home-delivered mail for two months? Mail delivers typically cover very large areas - what happened to all the other blocks - they couldn't get mail for 2 months as well? Or the other mail carriers all stepped up to cover all the other routes except your one block? Come on now. 

    3. You said you moved to a rental house in order to keep renting this out as an AirBnb. Once you moved that became your primary residence. There is a definition of primary residence; you can look it up on the IRS site. In the case of the IRS it's designed to keep you from being able to just claim anywhere, anytime, selling properties without paying capital gains, paying taxes due, etc. 

    Honestly I think the best advice that was given to you is to sell and move on. Until it's determined that cities can't stop you from having STRs anywhere, anytime, they will be allowed to regulate this activity. You don't have to like it but you are/were obviously circumventing their regulations which is why your license was denied. Take your profit (no capital gains, it sounds like) and buy in another market where there's no regulation. 

    Clearly youre much smarter than i, and ill certainly think twice about challenging the city next time! People should really just leave all their personal affairs to the state. Thanks for the wisdom, its really opened my eyes!


    1. Cities can and do have the right to regulate commercial activity…

     A. Ok, great insight, i wasnt aware city municipalities had the power to supersede state constitution by way of reinterpreting jurisdictions

    2. The no mail thing on a block for 2 months honestly sounds like a lie

    A. Totally, in fact this whole thing is a charade. I dont even own a house, let alone a mailbox for a USPS carrier to deliver a mortgage. The two Belgian Malinois next door are just a spicy detail i like to use for engaging the minds of site contributors like yourself. Apologies for being such a Dastardly Dan, its just my modus operandi

    3. You said you moved to a rental house in order to keep renting this out as an AirBnb

    A. Let me move tongue from cheek first and ask, does Walmart policy dictate how you conduct your affairs? As an employee sure, because thats a contract. Ahem, sorry i should be asking you the questions…. Is the IRS a elected lawmaking body of government? What is the 16th Amendment and did it grant such a body NEW tax powers and jurisdiction for that power? Im not sure where anyone said anything about claiming more than one primary residence, although im sure it happens, but what does the IRS say about renting a house across the street from your PR in order to rent it? Since PR is assumably mortgaged, binding you to that property, and a rental is leased/temp, what is the policy if the PR remains PR without ever claiming another, even in another county? Like i said, PR is for tax purposes and voting registration but thats now a comparatively boring an moot point :) No Walmart wont dictate your life, but you are bound to adhere to its policies while under their employ. Otherwise it makes not one bit of difference what is or isn’t defined within those policies. Though, look where my own brain has got me so far, so maybe the apparat persuasion had it right all along

    Hey thanks again for being so respectful and opening me up to a new way of thinking, its priceless! 

     After that post I'm not the least bit surprised you lost your case. I can only imagine what your presentation is like in person if this is your persona online🤣 . On a side note, I appreciate your attempt at satire but you're probably best off concentrating on strs.

    Skyline Properties
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  • Realtor · Gatlinburg · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 957 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Seth Kristian:
    Quote from @Kelly Sennholz:
    Quote from @John Carbone:

    “Their line of questioning quickly pivoted to my daughter, where she goes to school, where i sleep”


    this line of questioning for renting out your house to someone…sounds like nazi Germany when they went around to houses looking for Jewish people. 

    First, this comment is very inappropriate. 

    Secondly, in a democracy, we work things out. The law and the political environment are the mechanisms for doing this. Sometimes, we are on the losing side of an argument, that is how democracies work. Your comparing this to Nazi Germany is insulting and ill informed.

    When corruption has played a part in how things go, that is wrong. We must support democracy full throatedly, in particular with all the openly anti-democracy folks floating around now. Buying a home is one of the most important financial decisions many can make to improve their lifelong wealth. We must support this, also, if we are to maintain the Horatio Algers America. That is a dream I believe in.


     * FIREWORKS *

    We’ll said!!

    Is your primary home zoned for multi family? If you put a Home Depot shed on your property and live in it you would meet qualifications, or living in a rv in a detached garage. 

    if you moved out of your primary residence to another property in the same vicinity then it’s not your primary residence from both a voting standpoint and a irs standpoint. 
  • Member since 2022 · 47 posts · 12 votes
    3y
    Quote from @John Carbone:
    Quote from @Seth Kristian:
    Quote from @Kelly Sennholz:
    Quote from @John Carbone:

    “Their line of questioning quickly pivoted to my daughter, where she goes to school, where i sleep”


    this line of questioning for renting out your house to someone…sounds like nazi Germany when they went around to houses looking for Jewish people. 

    First, this comment is very inappropriate. 

    Secondly, in a democracy, we work things out. The law and the political environment are the mechanisms for doing this. Sometimes, we are on the losing side of an argument, that is how democracies work. Your comparing this to Nazi Germany is insulting and ill informed.

    When corruption has played a part in how things go, that is wrong. We must support democracy full throatedly, in particular with all the openly anti-democracy folks floating around now. Buying a home is one of the most important financial decisions many can make to improve their lifelong wealth. We must support this, also, if we are to maintain the Horatio Algers America. That is a dream I believe in.


     * FIREWORKS *

    We’ll said!!

    Is your primary home zoned for multi family? If you put a Home Depot shed on your property and live in it you would meet qualifications, or living in a rv in a detached garage. 

    if you moved out of your primary residence to another property in the same vicinity then it’s not your primary residence from both a voting standpoint and a irs standpoint. 

     Funny you should mention that because I already have a studio in the detached garage. It just felt so weird to rent the “entire property” with the minor caveat of host is staying inside the garage… but its basically a finished economy in there, had a bed setup in there any everything. Food for thought

  • Member since 2022 · 47 posts · 12 votes
    3y
    Quote from @JD Martin:
    Quote from @Seth Kristian:
    Quote from @JD Martin:

    Thoughts:

    1. Cities can and do have the right to regulate commercial activity unless their state takes that right away (which is generally not permitted under state constitutions) so you have that working against you anyway.

    2. The no mail thing on a block for 2 months honestly sounds like a lie. You really wouldn't expect a hearing (or anyone else) to believe that because a mailman got bit - something that probably happens all the time in the US - no one on the block was able to receive home-delivered mail for two months? Mail delivers typically cover very large areas - what happened to all the other blocks - they couldn't get mail for 2 months as well? Or the other mail carriers all stepped up to cover all the other routes except your one block? Come on now. 

    3. You said you moved to a rental house in order to keep renting this out as an AirBnb. Once you moved that became your primary residence. There is a definition of primary residence; you can look it up on the IRS site. In the case of the IRS it's designed to keep you from being able to just claim anywhere, anytime, selling properties without paying capital gains, paying taxes due, etc. 

    Honestly I think the best advice that was given to you is to sell and move on. Until it's determined that cities can't stop you from having STRs anywhere, anytime, they will be allowed to regulate this activity. You don't have to like it but you are/were obviously circumventing their regulations which is why your license was denied. Take your profit (no capital gains, it sounds like) and buy in another market where there's no regulation. 

    Clearly youre much smarter than i, and ill certainly think twice about challenging the city next time! People should really just leave all their personal affairs to the state. Thanks for the wisdom, its really opened my eyes!


    1. Cities can and do have the right to regulate commercial activity…

     A. Ok, great insight, i wasnt aware city municipalities had the power to supersede state constitution by way of reinterpreting jurisdictions

    2. The no mail thing on a block for 2 months honestly sounds like a lie

    A. Totally, in fact this whole thing is a charade. I dont even own a house, let alone a mailbox for a USPS carrier to deliver a mortgage. The two Belgian Malinois next door are just a spicy detail i like to use for engaging the minds of site contributors like yourself. Apologies for being such a Dastardly Dan, its just my modus operandi

    3. You said you moved to a rental house in order to keep renting this out as an AirBnb

    A. Let me move tongue from cheek first and ask, does Walmart policy dictate how you conduct your affairs? As an employee sure, because thats a contract. Ahem, sorry i should be asking you the questions…. Is the IRS a elected lawmaking body of government? What is the 16th Amendment and did it grant such a body NEW tax powers and jurisdiction for that power? Im not sure where anyone said anything about claiming more than one primary residence, although im sure it happens, but what does the IRS say about renting a house across the street from your PR in order to rent it? Since PR is assumably mortgaged, binding you to that property, and a rental is leased/temp, what is the policy if the PR remains PR without ever claiming another, even in another county? Like i said, PR is for tax purposes and voting registration but thats now a comparatively boring an moot point :) No Walmart wont dictate your life, but you are bound to adhere to its policies while under their employ. Otherwise it makes not one bit of difference what is or isn’t defined within those policies. Though, look where my own brain has got me so far, so maybe the apparat persuasion had it right all along

    Hey thanks again for being so respectful and opening me up to a new way of thinking, its priceless! 

     After that post I'm not the least bit surprised you lost your case. I can only imagine what your presentation is like in person if this is your persona online🤣 . On a side note, I appreciate your attempt at satire but you're probably best off concentrating on strs.


     Brilliant use of time here my friend! Your gratis wealth of knowledge and expertise are surely a blessing to each and every thread. We should definitely connect! 

  • Realtor · Gatlinburg · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 957 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Seth Kristian:
    Quote from @John Carbone:
    Quote from @Seth Kristian:
    Quote from @Kelly Sennholz:
    Quote from @John Carbone:

    “Their line of questioning quickly pivoted to my daughter, where she goes to school, where i sleep”


    this line of questioning for renting out your house to someone…sounds like nazi Germany when they went around to houses looking for Jewish people. 

    First, this comment is very inappropriate. 

    Secondly, in a democracy, we work things out. The law and the political environment are the mechanisms for doing this. Sometimes, we are on the losing side of an argument, that is how democracies work. Your comparing this to Nazi Germany is insulting and ill informed.

    When corruption has played a part in how things go, that is wrong. We must support democracy full throatedly, in particular with all the openly anti-democracy folks floating around now. Buying a home is one of the most important financial decisions many can make to improve their lifelong wealth. We must support this, also, if we are to maintain the Horatio Algers America. That is a dream I believe in.


     * FIREWORKS *

    We’ll said!!

    Is your primary home zoned for multi family? If you put a Home Depot shed on your property and live in it you would meet qualifications, or living in a rv in a detached garage. 

    if you moved out of your primary residence to another property in the same vicinity then it’s not your primary residence from both a voting standpoint and a irs standpoint. 

     Funny you should mention that because I already have a studio in the detached garage. It just felt so weird to rent the “entire property” with the minor caveat of host is staying inside the garage… but its basically a finished economy in there, had a bed setup in there any everything. Food for thought

    Perhaps you should focus on legal ways to make it work then if that’s what you want to do or sell it. Anything further on this topic without addressing either of those two options doesn’t solve any problem. 
  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y

    @Seth Kristian

    Just one comment. Amazon.com destroyed many bookstores in the country because it turned out an upstart online company could sell books cheaper and better than everyone else. And then it went ahead and did much the same to many, many retailers.

    Uber/Lyft came in and destroyed the taxi business in many cities, for much the same reasons.

    There are many, many examples of this. Should the taxi business have failed? Yes, in a capitalist system, because it was less useful than the Uber/Lyft system that replaced it. Should the bookstores have failed? Absolutely. I can tell you, as one of them, that the people who tend to buy a hundred books a year cheered as they shut down these pretentious showrooms and their lousy attached coffeehouses pimping a greasy patina of philomathy.

    How and why should hotels and motels and resorts and their lobbyists be so terrified of STRs? How is it that someone like Seth, who I assume had absolutely no background in the professional hospitality business other than this STR, is able to bring a comparable or superior service to market than what the professional hospitality business can provide? There shouldn't be the GHOST of a chance that Seth can beat them out at their own game. And yet...here they all are quaking in fear of his little business.

    You gotta wonder what we're coming to.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y

    Can you move back in, reapply, and STR by the room? Jurisdictions are implementing three primary models across the country (1) STR disallowed under existing residential zoning (2) STR by the room allowed with homeowner physically living there (3) STR of whole home allowed without homeowner physically living there. This jurisdiction is #2, which is a very different model than #3.

  • Realtor · Gatlinburg · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 957 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Mike Dymski:

    Can you move back in, reapply, and STR by the room? Jurisdictions are implementing three primary models across the country (1) STR disallowed under existing residential zoning (2) STR by the room allowed with homeowner physically living there (3) STR of whole home allowed without homeowner physically living there. This jurisdiction is #2, which is a very different model than #3.


     If he lives in the detached garage studio he has, presumably this falls under option 2 if zoned for multi family?

  • Member since 2018 · 24 posts · 10 votes
    3y

    So sorry to hear this.  Hang in there and diversify into business-friendly states.  

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jim K.:

    @Seth Kristian

    How and why should hotels and motels and resorts and their lobbyists be so terrified of STRs? How is it that someone like Seth, who I assume had absolutely no background in the professional hospitality business other than this STR, is able to bring a comparable or superior service to market than what the professional hospitality business can provide? There shouldn't be the GHOST of a chance that Seth can beat them out at their own game. And yet...here they all are quaking in fear of his little business.

    You gotta wonder what we're coming to.


     Hi Jim,
    I think the difference is competition between bookstore vs Amzon and Uber vs taxi is two competiting business model.

    At the beginning of STR craziness, Airbnb is not a business per-se. It's just a platform to rent one folks room to another folk, and it's still a primary residence.
    The problem happened when the business is booming and during the scaling/expansion process, where people buying home just to be STR-ized and renter is getting wild also, so everyone said STR owner is the new enemy.

    Also, taxi business or bookstore has no claim of "territory", where hotel business has to pay taxes and all of that for the local gov. ; if STR doesn't expand like today ( let say there're only 1 STR per 10 miles wide), obviously STR-owner would not become enemy of everyone.

    I can understand why lot of avg people is mad at STR owner, because this business is also hijacking up the home price for avg folks.

  • Investor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 708 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jim K.:

    @Seth Kristian

    How and why should hotels and motels and resorts and their lobbyists be so terrified of STRs? How is it that someone like Seth, who I assume had absolutely no background in the professional hospitality business other than this STR, is able to bring a comparable or superior service to market than what the professional hospitality business can provide? There shouldn't be the GHOST of a chance that Seth can beat them out at their own game. And yet...here they all are quaking in fear of his little business.


    One of the reasons why the hotel industry lobbies against STRs is that they feel (rightly to a large extent) that they are being held to different standards. For example, many safety regulations (sprinkler in every room, regular inspections etc) simply do not apply to STRs. This makes it more expensive to run a hotel. The STR customer generally doesn't appreciate that they are accepting a larger risk by not being protected by sprinklers, etc. Until something bad happens, anyway... Also, there are certain types of hospitality taxes in some locations that are only levied on hotels and not private rentals.

    Incidentally, since you mentioned Taxis, this is also still an issue with Uber/Lyft which generally are less regulated in terms of safety/insurance. People just don't realize the aded risk when they Uber. I assume that over time, regulations will probably catch up in all of these cases, but I'm going to predict that STR owners will complain bitterly when they are forced to install sprinklers in every room...

    I do get your larger point though that change generally is positive, but is always associated with pain for the status quo.

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y

    @Carlos Ptriawan and @Andrew S.

    Guys, I certainly don't think of myself as a some champion for the STR downtrodden, but in Athens, Greece, after the bottom fell out of the economy, AirBnb played a very large role in saving the average Athens and Thessaloniki family. The foreign-owned hotels and resorts screamed bloody murder, but that $50-$100 a night for a bedroom while children doubled up or slept on the couch in the living room went a long way to keeping a hell of a lot of people in their condos. You don't meet Greek people like me that argue STRs are necessarily a negative for the communities they appear in. They certainly returned the money spent on them to the local communities far more readily than the foreign-owned hotels chains.

  • Investor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 708 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jim K.:

    @Carlos Ptriawan and @Andrew S.

    Guys, I certainly don't think of myself as a some champion for the STR downtrodden, but in Athens, Greece, after the bottom fell out of the economy, AirBnb played a very large role in saving the average Athens and Thessaloniki family. The foreign-owned hotels and resorts screamed bloody murder, but that $50-$100 a night for a bedroom while children doubled up or slept on the couch in the living room went a long way to keeping a hell of a lot of people in their condos. You don't meet Greek people like me that argue STRs are necessarily a negative for the communities they appear in. They certainly returned the money spent on them to the local communities far more readily than the foreign-owned hotels chains.


     Jim,

    I don't have an axe to grind with STRs at all. I was just offering an explanation to your question of "how come an STR can compete with a hotel?". The answer is that STR tend to offer a slightly different product which a good number of people like. But also that the deck is stacked against hotels in this battle because they are far more highly regulated and taxed.

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y

    @Andrew S.

    I didn't mean to imply that you had an axe to grind. Really, I didn't Andrew. In my experience, you really do tell it like you see it, just like Carlos.

    My question about this whole deal is, how is it that the hotels, who employ people with hundreds on hundreds of years of collective experience in the hospitality industry, simply can't do better than a rando dude with zero professional experience like Seth and the STR he just started running a few years ago??? What's he got that they don't?

    You're not gonna convince me that the OP is carefully concealing a great talent at mounting charm offensives, for instance.

  • Realtor · Gatlinburg · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 957 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Andrew S.:
    Quote from @Jim K.:

    @Seth Kristian

    How and why should hotels and motels and resorts and their lobbyists be so terrified of STRs? How is it that someone like Seth, who I assume had absolutely no background in the professional hospitality business other than this STR, is able to bring a comparable or superior service to market than what the professional hospitality business can provide? There shouldn't be the GHOST of a chance that Seth can beat them out at their own game. And yet...here they all are quaking in fear of his little business.


    One of the reasons why the hotel industry lobbies against STRs is that they feel (rightly to a large extent) that they are being held to different standards. For example, many safety regulations (sprinkler in every room, regular inspections etc) simply do not apply to STRs. This makes it more expensive to run a hotel. The STR customer generally doesn't appreciate that they are accepting a larger risk by not being protected by sprinklers, etc. Until something bad happens, anyway... Also, there are certain types of hospitality taxes in some locations that are only levied on hotels and not private rentals.

    Incidentally, since you mentioned Taxis, this is also still an issue with Uber/Lyft which generally are less regulated in terms of safety/insurance. People just don't realize the aded risk when they Uber. I assume that over time, regulations will probably catch up in all of these cases, but I'm going to predict that STR owners will complain bitterly when they are forced to install sprinklers in every room...

    I do get your larger point though that change generally is positive, but is always associated with pain for the status quo.

    Is it safer being in a 10th floor hotel with a sprinkler system in every room needing to go down 10 flights of stairs in a fire as opposed to being in a SFH with an easy path to exit like hundreds of millions people do on a regular basis? I'm going to sleep extra well the next hotel im at knowing that the inspected sprinkler in my room will save me.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jim K.:

    @Andrew S.

    I didn't mean to imply that you had an axe to grind. Really, I didn't Andrew. In my experience, you really do tell it like you see it, just like Carlos.

    My question about this whole deal is, how is it that the hotels, who employ people with hundreds on hundreds of years of collective experience in the hospitality industry, simply can't do better than a rando dude with zero professional experience like Seth and the STR he just started running a few years ago??? What's he got that they don't?

    You're not gonna convince me that the OP is carefully concealing a great talent at mounting charm offensives, for instance.

    The hotel brands with larger suites are coming and rapidly expanding. stayAPT Suites, Choice Everhome, Hilton LivSmart, Sonder, and WaterWalk, to name a few. Not the same as a home but much larger rooms with full kitchens, dedicated living room, separate bedroom, amenities, located in the shopping, retail, and entertainment areas, efficiencies of scale, and no STR issues.

  • Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    Just because you USED to live in a place doesn't mean its your primary residence forever. Local governments do have definitions for Primary residence. Think about tax laws and property tax rates. There is a difference between homeowners and investors. Local governments have long distinguished between the two even before airbnb. By your own admission you moved out and rented another place to make your primary home a STR. So you are on the wrong side of the law (whether you like the law or not) and the city has a right to enforce the law. Im not saying the law is good or bad. I have mixed feelings. I wouldn't want my neighbor to make his home a STR but I like having STR options when I travel. Your choice is to keep or sell the property. Im sure Denver prices have shot up like other desirable cities. You can sell and 1041 the gains into other states where laws are more to your liking. But STR will always carry huge regulation risk which most people ignore at their peril.

  • Member since 2022 · 47 posts · 12 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jim K.:

    @Seth Kristian

    Just one comment. Amazon.com destroyed many bookstores in the country because it turned out an upstart online company could sell books cheaper and better than everyone else. And then it went ahead and did much the same to many, many retailers.

    Uber/Lyft came in and destroyed the taxi business in many cities, for much the same reasons.

    There are many, many examples of this. Should the taxi business have failed? Yes, in a capitalist system, because it was less useful than the Uber/Lyft system that replaced it. Should the bookstores have failed? Absolutely. I can tell you, as one of them, that the people who tend to buy a hundred books a year cheered as they shut down these pretentious showrooms and their lousy attached coffeehouses pimping a greasy patina of philomathy.

    How and why should hotels and motels and resorts and their lobbyists be so terrified of STRs? How is it that someone like Seth, who I assume had absolutely no background in the professional hospitality business other than this STR, is able to bring a comparable or superior service to market than what the professional hospitality business can provide? There shouldn't be the GHOST of a chance that Seth can beat them out at their own game. And yet...here they all are quaking in fear of his little business.

    You gotta wonder what we're coming to.


    Well said Jim! Ive actually been the service business for a very long time, but NOTHING like STR, not even close. The only thing i had going into it was a good attitude and two fingers to cross. Turns out some few years later with over 350 ratings and 5 stars for a little denver bungalow that i wasnt half bad at it. I had a brick and mortar business downtown for 13 years until the cooties shut it down at 2020. Airbnb was never meant as a primary gig until my business took a massive hit then. After that bnb was all i had but everyday im less and less concerned over it. Ill pivot and create something else or maybe sell.

    As far as wondering what we're coming to, i was wondering the same thing after reading so many statist warriors so staunchly affirming city regs on here i about forgot what country i lived in. Noblesse Oblige i suppose. Though i hold nothing against successful investors (truly!) at all, i have much to learn from them. Its the self appointed STR gentry, holding their noses at the problems for those feeling the full force and whiplash at the end of the city's bullwhip.

    Sorry for the tangent there, back to your point. Capitalism would have no problem with a better product or service bearing out in the marketplace, but thats not what we have, not in this case or the aforementioned in your post. As for where this is all going, or where weve ended up? Its hard to say while individual enterprise may strive and gain individually, there’s much hesitation and less time to see the same outcome with a collective interest, insofar as bargaining. That is to say a consortium of hosts beginning at local/city levels, to state levels and so on. Its a much more powerful position to have! 

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Seth Kristian:

    I love that term! 

    But it is indeed a fine line between one's property rights and the rights of the society (neighborhood) as a whole. When I used to build/remodel custom homes in a little SoCal beach town, I would occasionally come up against the most Dictatorial, Totalitarian, Marxist/Fascist organization known to mankind.......a small town Historical Review Board run by a bunch of blue-haired old ladies and given virtually unlimited powers by the City Council. Their word was based on zero experience or knowledge and their whims were not subject to challenge by the Homeowner or Contractor. Absolute power. Struck fear into the hearts of big burly Contractors more than a run-in with a heavily armed street gang in the Barrio....

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