Pros and Cons of STR Property Managers
Member since 2024 · 31 posts · 16 votes
Pros and Cons of STR Property Managers
Most Popular Reply
Collin HaysBusiness Member
Property Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votesWith my first rental, I had a PM. But they were awful. Constant housekeeping complaints, bookkeeping errors, them using my property for their personal gain without me knowing it, charging outrageous "fees" that they didn't share with me, which effectively lowered my rents, and questionable repairs and maintenance expenses and quality. I used them for two years before embarking on self-managing. I started a PM from chance; a couple of owners next to me asked me to manage their cabins, and things developed from there.
Anywho...
A good PM is going to take care of every single detail, with minimum intervention from the homeowner. A good PM will also make as much or more money, net to the homeowner, than (s)he would on their own. So if it's a break-even scenario, why hire a PM? It's all in the value of the owner's time. To earn good money self-managing, the owner has to stay on top of things. Inquiries, expedient responses for assistance, repairs, and maintenance, frequent rate/yield analysis, etc. A good PM takes care of all of this. Most folks unhappy with PMs are co-managing their rental with the PM. That never works.
In 2020 and for about 3 years thereafter, self-managing was a cinch, because you could do a really poor job and still be flooded with business. That's when the DIY craze took off, folks started writing books, and it was the land of milk and honey.
Today, we've returned to reality, which is, you've got to work vacation rentals for them to really pay off. I am absolutely a proponent of self-management, but only if you have TIE. Time, Interest, and Energy. If you don't have TIE, and all of TIE, then you are leaving a lot of money on the table by not hiring a PM.
Not all PMs are created the same. We are a "boutique" PM. We manage 30-40 and leave it at that. I believe Andrew Steffin's operation is similar, perhaps slightly larger. We've got 3 FTEs, and cabin management is their only job, 365/24/7. And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim: We had about $1.3 million in rental revenues last year, and yours truly bagged all of $32K. Of course, I don't pay for the company to manage my own places, otherwise I wouldn't be in this business.
Sorry for my Saturday night soap box; I'm not sure if it answered your question.
24 Replies
- 2yCollin HaysBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
With my first rental, I had a PM. But they were awful. Constant housekeeping complaints, bookkeeping errors, them using my property for their personal gain without me knowing it, charging outrageous "fees" that they didn't share with me, which effectively lowered my rents, and questionable repairs and maintenance expenses and quality. I used them for two years before embarking on self-managing. I started a PM from chance; a couple of owners next to me asked me to manage their cabins, and things developed from there.
Anywho...
A good PM is going to take care of every single detail, with minimum intervention from the homeowner. A good PM will also make as much or more money, net to the homeowner, than (s)he would on their own. So if it's a break-even scenario, why hire a PM? It's all in the value of the owner's time. To earn good money self-managing, the owner has to stay on top of things. Inquiries, expedient responses for assistance, repairs, and maintenance, frequent rate/yield analysis, etc. A good PM takes care of all of this. Most folks unhappy with PMs are co-managing their rental with the PM. That never works.
In 2020 and for about 3 years thereafter, self-managing was a cinch, because you could do a really poor job and still be flooded with business. That's when the DIY craze took off, folks started writing books, and it was the land of milk and honey.
Today, we've returned to reality, which is, you've got to work vacation rentals for them to really pay off. I am absolutely a proponent of self-management, but only if you have TIE. Time, Interest, and Energy. If you don't have TIE, and all of TIE, then you are leaving a lot of money on the table by not hiring a PM.
Not all PMs are created the same. We are a "boutique" PM. We manage 30-40 and leave it at that. I believe Andrew Steffin's operation is similar, perhaps slightly larger. We've got 3 FTEs, and cabin management is their only job, 365/24/7. And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim: We had about $1.3 million in rental revenues last year, and yours truly bagged all of $32K. Of course, I don't pay for the company to manage my own places, otherwise I wouldn't be in this business.
Sorry for my Saturday night soap box; I'm not sure if it answered your question.
- Member since 2024 · 31 posts · 16 votes2y
Thank you so much for the context. Definitely seeing the wave of DIY hosts waning a bit now that competition is increasing.
Curious - what are the biggest things eating into your profit? Salaries for the FTE's? $1.3M in revenues is awesome, but I would've expected more of that to go to your bottom line.
Again, thanks for all the info and transparency!
- 2yCollin HaysBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
Quote from @Braedon Page:
Thank you so much for the context. Definitely seeing the wave of DIY hosts waning a bit now that competition is increasing.
Curious - what are the biggest things eating into your profit? Salaries for the FTE's? $1.3M in revenues is awesome, but I would've expected more of that to go to your bottom line.
Again, thanks for all the info and transparency!
To make a lot of money as a PM, I think you've got to make compromises that I'm simply not willing to make. Marking up repairs & maintenance, farming out customer service to people that can barely speak English, charge a lot of junk fees, etc.
I'm just not comfortable doing any of that.
- 2yAndrew SteffensBusiness MemberTampa, FL · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Adding a bit to what Collin put - I like to add value where I can. We are at about 65 doors currently and we are partnered with Marriott, Jetblue and Allegiant Airlines, and about 10 others on top of Airbnb/VRBO. Marriott will not work with mom and pop or anyone under 50 units. They account for about 15-20% of our total bookings. We will also be going live with Hyatt and Amex Travel this year. This is one instance where I can add property exposure which will increase the bottom line for my clients. Other ways (off the top of my head):
- Dedicated Revenue Manager on top of dynamic pricing software
- 24/7 guest support
- Vendor discounts (i.e. roof replacements, AC repairs, etc)
As a new PM I think it is important to highlight where you add value instead of battling on price. There are PM's cheaper than I here in FL but I believe we will net the client more money.
We had some clients leave us on good terms in the past and told us they were barely, if at all, making more than when they were with us.
Good luck!
Vacation Rentals of Florida53 Reviews - Member since 2024 · 31 posts · 16 votes2y
Quote from @Andrew Steffens:
Adding a bit to what Collin put - I like to add value where I can. We are at about 65 doors currently and we are partnered with Marriott, Jetblue and Allegiant Airlines, and about 10 others on top of Airbnb/VRBO. Marriott will not work with mom and pop or anyone under 50 units. They account for about 15-20% of our total bookings. We will also be going live with Hyatt and Amex Travel this year. This is one instance where I can add property exposure which will increase the bottom line for my clients. Other ways (off the top of my head):
- Dedicated Revenue Manager on top of dynamic pricing software
- 24/7 guest support
- Vendor discounts (i.e. roof replacements, AC repairs, etc)
As a new PM I think it is important to highlight where you add value instead of battling on price. There are PM's cheaper than I here in FL but I believe we will net the client more money.
We had some clients leave us on good terms in the past and told us they were barely, if at all, making more than when they were with us.
Good luck!
That's amazing - would love to connect down the road when we get to that level (hopefully sooner than later) and talk about how you were able to do those partnerships - those are some big names.
- 2yAndrew SteffensBusiness MemberTampa, FL · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Quote from @Braedon Page:
Quote from @Andrew Steffens:
Adding a bit to what Collin put - I like to add value where I can. We are at about 65 doors currently and we are partnered with Marriott, Jetblue and Allegiant Airlines, and about 10 others on top of Airbnb/VRBO. Marriott will not work with mom and pop or anyone under 50 units. They account for about 15-20% of our total bookings. We will also be going live with Hyatt and Amex Travel this year. This is one instance where I can add property exposure which will increase the bottom line for my clients. Other ways (off the top of my head):
- Dedicated Revenue Manager on top of dynamic pricing software
- 24/7 guest support
- Vendor discounts (i.e. roof replacements, AC repairs, etc)
As a new PM I think it is important to highlight where you add value instead of battling on price. There are PM's cheaper than I here in FL but I believe we will net the client more money.
We had some clients leave us on good terms in the past and told us they were barely, if at all, making more than when they were with us.
Good luck!
That's amazing - would love to connect down the road when we get to that level (hopefully sooner than later) and talk about how you were able to do those partnerships - those are some big names.
Sure! I am open to having another call with you and @Bryan Vukelich whenever you would like!
Vacation Rentals of Florida53 Reviews - Real Estate Broker · Kaneohe, HI · Member since 2020 · 193 posts · 163 votes2y
Quote from @Andrew Steffens:
Quote from @Braedon Page:
Quote from @Andrew Steffens:
Adding a bit to what Collin put - I like to add value where I can. We are at about 65 doors currently and we are partnered with Marriott, Jetblue and Allegiant Airlines, and about 10 others on top of Airbnb/VRBO. Marriott will not work with mom and pop or anyone under 50 units. They account for about 15-20% of our total bookings. We will also be going live with Hyatt and Amex Travel this year. This is one instance where I can add property exposure which will increase the bottom line for my clients. Other ways (off the top of my head):
- Dedicated Revenue Manager on top of dynamic pricing software
- 24/7 guest support
- Vendor discounts (i.e. roof replacements, AC repairs, etc)
As a new PM I think it is important to highlight where you add value instead of battling on price. There are PM's cheaper than I here in FL but I believe we will net the client more money.
We had some clients leave us on good terms in the past and told us they were barely, if at all, making more than when they were with us.
Good luck!
That's amazing - would love to connect down the road when we get to that level (hopefully sooner than later) and talk about how you were able to do those partnerships - those are some big names.
Sure! I am open to having another call with you and @Bryan Vukelich whenever you would like!
Big mahalo Andrew - we'll be in touch at some point in the coming days. Hope all is well with you
- 2yAndrew SteffensBusiness MemberTampa, FL · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Quote from @Bryan Vukelich:
Quote from @Andrew Steffens:
Quote from @Braedon Page:
Quote from @Andrew Steffens:
Adding a bit to what Collin put - I like to add value where I can. We are at about 65 doors currently and we are partnered with Marriott, Jetblue and Allegiant Airlines, and about 10 others on top of Airbnb/VRBO. Marriott will not work with mom and pop or anyone under 50 units. They account for about 15-20% of our total bookings. We will also be going live with Hyatt and Amex Travel this year. This is one instance where I can add property exposure which will increase the bottom line for my clients. Other ways (off the top of my head):
- Dedicated Revenue Manager on top of dynamic pricing software
- 24/7 guest support
- Vendor discounts (i.e. roof replacements, AC repairs, etc)
As a new PM I think it is important to highlight where you add value instead of battling on price. There are PM's cheaper than I here in FL but I believe we will net the client more money.
We had some clients leave us on good terms in the past and told us they were barely, if at all, making more than when they were with us.
Good luck!
That's amazing - would love to connect down the road when we get to that level (hopefully sooner than later) and talk about how you were able to do those partnerships - those are some big names.
Sure! I am open to having another call with you and @Bryan Vukelich whenever you would like!
Big mahalo Andrew - we'll be in touch at some point in the coming days. Hope all is well with you
Likewise, talk soon!
Vacation Rentals of Florida53 Reviews - Property Manager · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2021 · 6 posts · 2 votes2y
Quote from @Collin Hays:
With my first rental, I had a PM. But they were awful. Constant housekeeping complaints, bookkeeping errors, them using my property for their personal gain without me knowing it, charging outrageous "fees" that they didn't share with me, which effectively lowered my rents, and questionable repairs and maintenance expenses and quality. I used them for two years before embarking on self-managing. I started a PM from chance; a couple of owners next to me asked me to manage their cabins, and things developed from there.
Anywho...
A good PM is going to take care of every single detail, with minimum intervention from the homeowner. A good PM will also make as much or more money, net to the homeowner, than (s)he would on their own. So if it's a break-even scenario, why hire a PM? It's all in the value of the owner's time. To earn good money self-managing, the owner has to stay on top of things. Inquiries, expedient responses for assistance, repairs, and maintenance, frequent rate/yield analysis, etc. A good PM takes care of all of this. Most folks unhappy with PMs are co-managing their rental with the PM. That never works.
In 2020 and for about 3 years thereafter, self-managing was a cinch, because you could do a really poor job and still be flooded with business. That's when the DIY craze took off, folks started writing books, and it was the land of milk and honey.
Today, we've returned to reality, which is, you've got to work vacation rentals for them to really pay off. I am absolutely a proponent of self-management, but only if you have TIE. Time, Interest, and Energy. If you don't have TIE, and all of TIE, then you are leaving a lot of money on the table by not hiring a PM.
Not all PMs are created the same. We are a "boutique" PM. We manage 30-40 and leave it at that. I believe Andrew Steffin's operation is similar, perhaps slightly larger. We've got 3 FTEs, and cabin management is their only job, 365/24/7. And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim: We had about $1.3 million in rental revenues last year, and yours truly bagged all of $32K. Of course, I don't pay for the company to manage my own places, otherwise I wouldn't be in this business.
Sorry for my Saturday night soap box; I'm not sure if it answered your question.
Hey guys wanted to pitch in here (I'm new to BP), I'm a little confused with your statement Collin. How are you only bringing in 32K from 1.3 million in rental revenues.
I started my PM company a few months ago with 5 properties projected to bring in 400K a year with our company projected to bring in 70K in gross revenue.
Can you explain why YOUR margins are so slim?
- 2yCollin HaysBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
With my first rental, I had a PM. But they were awful. Constant housekeeping complaints, bookkeeping errors, them using my property for their personal gain without me knowing it, charging outrageous "fees" that they didn't share with me, which effectively lowered my rents, and questionable repairs and maintenance expenses and quality. I used them for two years before embarking on self-managing. I started a PM from chance; a couple of owners next to me asked me to manage their cabins, and things developed from there.
Anywho...
A good PM is going to take care of every single detail, with minimum intervention from the homeowner. A good PM will also make as much or more money, net to the homeowner, than (s)he would on their own. So if it's a break-even scenario, why hire a PM? It's all in the value of the owner's time. To earn good money self-managing, the owner has to stay on top of things. Inquiries, expedient responses for assistance, repairs, and maintenance, frequent rate/yield analysis, etc. A good PM takes care of all of this. Most folks unhappy with PMs are co-managing their rental with the PM. That never works.
In 2020 and for about 3 years thereafter, self-managing was a cinch, because you could do a really poor job and still be flooded with business. That's when the DIY craze took off, folks started writing books, and it was the land of milk and honey.
Today, we've returned to reality, which is, you've got to work vacation rentals for them to really pay off. I am absolutely a proponent of self-management, but only if you have TIE. Time, Interest, and Energy. If you don't have TIE, and all of TIE, then you are leaving a lot of money on the table by not hiring a PM.
Not all PMs are created the same. We are a "boutique" PM. We manage 30-40 and leave it at that. I believe Andrew Steffin's operation is similar, perhaps slightly larger. We've got 3 FTEs, and cabin management is their only job, 365/24/7. And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim: We had about $1.3 million in rental revenues last year, and yours truly bagged all of $32K. Of course, I don't pay for the company to manage my own places, otherwise I wouldn't be in this business.
Sorry for my Saturday night soap box; I'm not sure if it answered your question.
Hey guys wanted to pitch in here (I'm new to BP), I'm a little confused with your statement Collin. How are you only bringing in 32K from 1.3 million in rental revenues.
I started my PM company a few months ago with 5 properties projected to bring in 400K a year with our company projected to bring in 70K in gross revenue.
Can you explain why YOUR margins are so slim?
Already did.
- Property Manager · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2021 · 6 posts · 2 votes2y
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
With my first rental, I had a PM. But they were awful. Constant housekeeping complaints, bookkeeping errors, them using my property for their personal gain without me knowing it, charging outrageous "fees" that they didn't share with me, which effectively lowered my rents, and questionable repairs and maintenance expenses and quality. I used them for two years before embarking on self-managing. I started a PM from chance; a couple of owners next to me asked me to manage their cabins, and things developed from there.
Anywho...
A good PM is going to take care of every single detail, with minimum intervention from the homeowner. A good PM will also make as much or more money, net to the homeowner, than (s)he would on their own. So if it's a break-even scenario, why hire a PM? It's all in the value of the owner's time. To earn good money self-managing, the owner has to stay on top of things. Inquiries, expedient responses for assistance, repairs, and maintenance, frequent rate/yield analysis, etc. A good PM takes care of all of this. Most folks unhappy with PMs are co-managing their rental with the PM. That never works.
In 2020 and for about 3 years thereafter, self-managing was a cinch, because you could do a really poor job and still be flooded with business. That's when the DIY craze took off, folks started writing books, and it was the land of milk and honey.
Today, we've returned to reality, which is, you've got to work vacation rentals for them to really pay off. I am absolutely a proponent of self-management, but only if you have TIE. Time, Interest, and Energy. If you don't have TIE, and all of TIE, then you are leaving a lot of money on the table by not hiring a PM.
Not all PMs are created the same. We are a "boutique" PM. We manage 30-40 and leave it at that. I believe Andrew Steffin's operation is similar, perhaps slightly larger. We've got 3 FTEs, and cabin management is their only job, 365/24/7. And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim: We had about $1.3 million in rental revenues last year, and yours truly bagged all of $32K. Of course, I don't pay for the company to manage my own places, otherwise I wouldn't be in this business.
Sorry for my Saturday night soap box; I'm not sure if it answered your question.
Hey guys wanted to pitch in here (I'm new to BP), I'm a little confused with your statement Collin. How are you only bringing in 32K from 1.3 million in rental revenues.
I started my PM company a few months ago with 5 properties projected to bring in 400K a year with our company projected to bring in 70K in gross revenue.
Can you explain why YOUR margins are so slim?
Already did.
Yeah, but then you also said "And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim" which is probably the most untrue statement.
- 2yCollin HaysBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votesYou do you.
Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
With my first rental, I had a PM. But they were awful. Constant housekeeping complaints, bookkeeping errors, them using my property for their personal gain without me knowing it, charging outrageous "fees" that they didn't share with me, which effectively lowered my rents, and questionable repairs and maintenance expenses and quality. I used them for two years before embarking on self-managing. I started a PM from chance; a couple of owners next to me asked me to manage their cabins, and things developed from there.
Anywho...
A good PM is going to take care of every single detail, with minimum intervention from the homeowner. A good PM will also make as much or more money, net to the homeowner, than (s)he would on their own. So if it's a break-even scenario, why hire a PM? It's all in the value of the owner's time. To earn good money self-managing, the owner has to stay on top of things. Inquiries, expedient responses for assistance, repairs, and maintenance, frequent rate/yield analysis, etc. A good PM takes care of all of this. Most folks unhappy with PMs are co-managing their rental with the PM. That never works.
In 2020 and for about 3 years thereafter, self-managing was a cinch, because you could do a really poor job and still be flooded with business. That's when the DIY craze took off, folks started writing books, and it was the land of milk and honey.
Today, we've returned to reality, which is, you've got to work vacation rentals for them to really pay off. I am absolutely a proponent of self-management, but only if you have TIE. Time, Interest, and Energy. If you don't have TIE, and all of TIE, then you are leaving a lot of money on the table by not hiring a PM.
Not all PMs are created the same. We are a "boutique" PM. We manage 30-40 and leave it at that. I believe Andrew Steffin's operation is similar, perhaps slightly larger. We've got 3 FTEs, and cabin management is their only job, 365/24/7. And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim: We had about $1.3 million in rental revenues last year, and yours truly bagged all of $32K. Of course, I don't pay for the company to manage my own places, otherwise I wouldn't be in this business.
Sorry for my Saturday night soap box; I'm not sure if it answered your question.
Hey guys wanted to pitch in here (I'm new to BP), I'm a little confused with your statement Collin. How are you only bringing in 32K from 1.3 million in rental revenues.
I started my PM company a few months ago with 5 properties projected to bring in 400K a year with our company projected to bring in 70K in gross revenue.
Can you explain why YOUR margins are so slim?
Already did.
Yeah, but then you also said "And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim" which is probably the most untrue statement.
- Member since 2024 · 31 posts · 16 votes2y
Quote from @Collin Hays:
You do you.Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
With my first rental, I had a PM. But they were awful. Constant housekeeping complaints, bookkeeping errors, them using my property for their personal gain without me knowing it, charging outrageous "fees" that they didn't share with me, which effectively lowered my rents, and questionable repairs and maintenance expenses and quality. I used them for two years before embarking on self-managing. I started a PM from chance; a couple of owners next to me asked me to manage their cabins, and things developed from there.
Anywho...
A good PM is going to take care of every single detail, with minimum intervention from the homeowner. A good PM will also make as much or more money, net to the homeowner, than (s)he would on their own. So if it's a break-even scenario, why hire a PM? It's all in the value of the owner's time. To earn good money self-managing, the owner has to stay on top of things. Inquiries, expedient responses for assistance, repairs, and maintenance, frequent rate/yield analysis, etc. A good PM takes care of all of this. Most folks unhappy with PMs are co-managing their rental with the PM. That never works.
In 2020 and for about 3 years thereafter, self-managing was a cinch, because you could do a really poor job and still be flooded with business. That's when the DIY craze took off, folks started writing books, and it was the land of milk and honey.
Today, we've returned to reality, which is, you've got to work vacation rentals for them to really pay off. I am absolutely a proponent of self-management, but only if you have TIE. Time, Interest, and Energy. If you don't have TIE, and all of TIE, then you are leaving a lot of money on the table by not hiring a PM.
Not all PMs are created the same. We are a "boutique" PM. We manage 30-40 and leave it at that. I believe Andrew Steffin's operation is similar, perhaps slightly larger. We've got 3 FTEs, and cabin management is their only job, 365/24/7. And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim: We had about $1.3 million in rental revenues last year, and yours truly bagged all of $32K. Of course, I don't pay for the company to manage my own places, otherwise I wouldn't be in this business.
Sorry for my Saturday night soap box; I'm not sure if it answered your question.
Hey guys wanted to pitch in here (I'm new to BP), I'm a little confused with your statement Collin. How are you only bringing in 32K from 1.3 million in rental revenues.
I started my PM company a few months ago with 5 properties projected to bring in 400K a year with our company projected to bring in 70K in gross revenue.
Can you explain why YOUR margins are so slim?
Already did.
Yeah, but then you also said "And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim" which is probably the most untrue statement.
Genuinely curious though - your profit is around 2.5% of your total revenue. Is there not a way to boost that without charging junk fees and using VA's? What kind of management fee are you charging?
- 2yCollin HaysBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
Quote from @Braedon Page:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
You do you.Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
With my first rental, I had a PM. But they were awful. Constant housekeeping complaints, bookkeeping errors, them using my property for their personal gain without me knowing it, charging outrageous "fees" that they didn't share with me, which effectively lowered my rents, and questionable repairs and maintenance expenses and quality. I used them for two years before embarking on self-managing. I started a PM from chance; a couple of owners next to me asked me to manage their cabins, and things developed from there.
Anywho...
A good PM is going to take care of every single detail, with minimum intervention from the homeowner. A good PM will also make as much or more money, net to the homeowner, than (s)he would on their own. So if it's a break-even scenario, why hire a PM? It's all in the value of the owner's time. To earn good money self-managing, the owner has to stay on top of things. Inquiries, expedient responses for assistance, repairs, and maintenance, frequent rate/yield analysis, etc. A good PM takes care of all of this. Most folks unhappy with PMs are co-managing their rental with the PM. That never works.
In 2020 and for about 3 years thereafter, self-managing was a cinch, because you could do a really poor job and still be flooded with business. That's when the DIY craze took off, folks started writing books, and it was the land of milk and honey.
Today, we've returned to reality, which is, you've got to work vacation rentals for them to really pay off. I am absolutely a proponent of self-management, but only if you have TIE. Time, Interest, and Energy. If you don't have TIE, and all of TIE, then you are leaving a lot of money on the table by not hiring a PM.
Not all PMs are created the same. We are a "boutique" PM. We manage 30-40 and leave it at that. I believe Andrew Steffin's operation is similar, perhaps slightly larger. We've got 3 FTEs, and cabin management is their only job, 365/24/7. And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim: We had about $1.3 million in rental revenues last year, and yours truly bagged all of $32K. Of course, I don't pay for the company to manage my own places, otherwise I wouldn't be in this business.
Sorry for my Saturday night soap box; I'm not sure if it answered your question.
Hey guys wanted to pitch in here (I'm new to BP), I'm a little confused with your statement Collin. How are you only bringing in 32K from 1.3 million in rental revenues.
I started my PM company a few months ago with 5 properties projected to bring in 400K a year with our company projected to bring in 70K in gross revenue.
Can you explain why YOUR margins are so slim?
Already did.
Yeah, but then you also said "And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim" which is probably the most untrue statement.
Genuinely curious though - your profit is around 2.5% of your total revenue. Is there not a way to boost that without charging junk fees and using VA's? What kind of management fee are you charging?
We charge 20%. I have three full time people (other than me) that run day to day operations. That’s a lot for 30-40 properties but that’s the way I set it up and want it.
I am a demanding homeowner myself and assume the same of my clients. We’ve never lost a client to another management company in 19 years. We are pretty selective on who we will work for though.
- Member since 2024 · 31 posts · 16 votes2y
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Braedon Page:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
You do you.Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
With my first rental, I had a PM. But they were awful. Constant housekeeping complaints, bookkeeping errors, them using my property for their personal gain without me knowing it, charging outrageous "fees" that they didn't share with me, which effectively lowered my rents, and questionable repairs and maintenance expenses and quality. I used them for two years before embarking on self-managing. I started a PM from chance; a couple of owners next to me asked me to manage their cabins, and things developed from there.
Anywho...
A good PM is going to take care of every single detail, with minimum intervention from the homeowner. A good PM will also make as much or more money, net to the homeowner, than (s)he would on their own. So if it's a break-even scenario, why hire a PM? It's all in the value of the owner's time. To earn good money self-managing, the owner has to stay on top of things. Inquiries, expedient responses for assistance, repairs, and maintenance, frequent rate/yield analysis, etc. A good PM takes care of all of this. Most folks unhappy with PMs are co-managing their rental with the PM. That never works.
In 2020 and for about 3 years thereafter, self-managing was a cinch, because you could do a really poor job and still be flooded with business. That's when the DIY craze took off, folks started writing books, and it was the land of milk and honey.
Today, we've returned to reality, which is, you've got to work vacation rentals for them to really pay off. I am absolutely a proponent of self-management, but only if you have TIE. Time, Interest, and Energy. If you don't have TIE, and all of TIE, then you are leaving a lot of money on the table by not hiring a PM.
Not all PMs are created the same. We are a "boutique" PM. We manage 30-40 and leave it at that. I believe Andrew Steffin's operation is similar, perhaps slightly larger. We've got 3 FTEs, and cabin management is their only job, 365/24/7. And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim: We had about $1.3 million in rental revenues last year, and yours truly bagged all of $32K. Of course, I don't pay for the company to manage my own places, otherwise I wouldn't be in this business.
Sorry for my Saturday night soap box; I'm not sure if it answered your question.
Hey guys wanted to pitch in here (I'm new to BP), I'm a little confused with your statement Collin. How are you only bringing in 32K from 1.3 million in rental revenues.
I started my PM company a few months ago with 5 properties projected to bring in 400K a year with our company projected to bring in 70K in gross revenue.
Can you explain why YOUR margins are so slim?
Already did.
Yeah, but then you also said "And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim" which is probably the most untrue statement.
Genuinely curious though - your profit is around 2.5% of your total revenue. Is there not a way to boost that without charging junk fees and using VA's? What kind of management fee are you charging?
We charge 20%. I have three full time people (other than me) that run day to day operations. That’s a lot for 30-40 properties but that’s the way I set it up and want it.
I am a demanding homeowner myself and assume the same of my clients. We’ve never lost a client to another management company in 19 years.
Ok, those numbers make a lot more sense. Do you find yourself dedicating a lot of time to the business personally or is it almost entirely passive for you with your full-timers handling 99% of the day to day?
- 2yCollin HaysBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
Quote from @Braedon Page:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Braedon Page:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
You do you.Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
With my first rental, I had a PM. But they were awful. Constant housekeeping complaints, bookkeeping errors, them using my property for their personal gain without me knowing it, charging outrageous "fees" that they didn't share with me, which effectively lowered my rents, and questionable repairs and maintenance expenses and quality. I used them for two years before embarking on self-managing. I started a PM from chance; a couple of owners next to me asked me to manage their cabins, and things developed from there.
Anywho...
A good PM is going to take care of every single detail, with minimum intervention from the homeowner. A good PM will also make as much or more money, net to the homeowner, than (s)he would on their own. So if it's a break-even scenario, why hire a PM? It's all in the value of the owner's time. To earn good money self-managing, the owner has to stay on top of things. Inquiries, expedient responses for assistance, repairs, and maintenance, frequent rate/yield analysis, etc. A good PM takes care of all of this. Most folks unhappy with PMs are co-managing their rental with the PM. That never works.
In 2020 and for about 3 years thereafter, self-managing was a cinch, because you could do a really poor job and still be flooded with business. That's when the DIY craze took off, folks started writing books, and it was the land of milk and honey.
Today, we've returned to reality, which is, you've got to work vacation rentals for them to really pay off. I am absolutely a proponent of self-management, but only if you have TIE. Time, Interest, and Energy. If you don't have TIE, and all of TIE, then you are leaving a lot of money on the table by not hiring a PM.
Not all PMs are created the same. We are a "boutique" PM. We manage 30-40 and leave it at that. I believe Andrew Steffin's operation is similar, perhaps slightly larger. We've got 3 FTEs, and cabin management is their only job, 365/24/7. And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim: We had about $1.3 million in rental revenues last year, and yours truly bagged all of $32K. Of course, I don't pay for the company to manage my own places, otherwise I wouldn't be in this business.
Sorry for my Saturday night soap box; I'm not sure if it answered your question.
Hey guys wanted to pitch in here (I'm new to BP), I'm a little confused with your statement Collin. How are you only bringing in 32K from 1.3 million in rental revenues.
I started my PM company a few months ago with 5 properties projected to bring in 400K a year with our company projected to bring in 70K in gross revenue.
Can you explain why YOUR margins are so slim?
Already did.
Yeah, but then you also said "And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim" which is probably the most untrue statement.
Genuinely curious though - your profit is around 2.5% of your total revenue. Is there not a way to boost that without charging junk fees and using VA's? What kind of management fee are you charging?
We charge 20%. I have three full time people (other than me) that run day to day operations. That’s a lot for 30-40 properties but that’s the way I set it up and want it.
I am a demanding homeowner myself and assume the same of my clients. We’ve never lost a client to another management company in 19 years.
Ok, those numbers make a lot more sense. Do you find yourself dedicating a lot of time to the business personally or is it almost entirely passive for you with your full-timers handling 99% of the day to day?
I primarily handle the marketing and rates, as marketing and hotel management are part of my background. And homeowners are able to reach me anytime they want - they have my cell number.
- Member since 2024 · 31 posts · 16 votes2y
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Braedon Page:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Braedon Page:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
You do you.Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Chayton Wagner:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
With my first rental, I had a PM. But they were awful. Constant housekeeping complaints, bookkeeping errors, them using my property for their personal gain without me knowing it, charging outrageous "fees" that they didn't share with me, which effectively lowered my rents, and questionable repairs and maintenance expenses and quality. I used them for two years before embarking on self-managing. I started a PM from chance; a couple of owners next to me asked me to manage their cabins, and things developed from there.
Anywho...
A good PM is going to take care of every single detail, with minimum intervention from the homeowner. A good PM will also make as much or more money, net to the homeowner, than (s)he would on their own. So if it's a break-even scenario, why hire a PM? It's all in the value of the owner's time. To earn good money self-managing, the owner has to stay on top of things. Inquiries, expedient responses for assistance, repairs, and maintenance, frequent rate/yield analysis, etc. A good PM takes care of all of this. Most folks unhappy with PMs are co-managing their rental with the PM. That never works.
In 2020 and for about 3 years thereafter, self-managing was a cinch, because you could do a really poor job and still be flooded with business. That's when the DIY craze took off, folks started writing books, and it was the land of milk and honey.
Today, we've returned to reality, which is, you've got to work vacation rentals for them to really pay off. I am absolutely a proponent of self-management, but only if you have TIE. Time, Interest, and Energy. If you don't have TIE, and all of TIE, then you are leaving a lot of money on the table by not hiring a PM.
Not all PMs are created the same. We are a "boutique" PM. We manage 30-40 and leave it at that. I believe Andrew Steffin's operation is similar, perhaps slightly larger. We've got 3 FTEs, and cabin management is their only job, 365/24/7. And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim: We had about $1.3 million in rental revenues last year, and yours truly bagged all of $32K. Of course, I don't pay for the company to manage my own places, otherwise I wouldn't be in this business.
Sorry for my Saturday night soap box; I'm not sure if it answered your question.
Hey guys wanted to pitch in here (I'm new to BP), I'm a little confused with your statement Collin. How are you only bringing in 32K from 1.3 million in rental revenues.
I started my PM company a few months ago with 5 properties projected to bring in 400K a year with our company projected to bring in 70K in gross revenue.
Can you explain why YOUR margins are so slim?
Already did.
Yeah, but then you also said "And to give you some context on how "rich" the PMs are getting, in case you are wondering for your own PM business, the margins in this business are incredibly slim" which is probably the most untrue statement.
Genuinely curious though - your profit is around 2.5% of your total revenue. Is there not a way to boost that without charging junk fees and using VA's? What kind of management fee are you charging?
We charge 20%. I have three full time people (other than me) that run day to day operations. That’s a lot for 30-40 properties but that’s the way I set it up and want it.
I am a demanding homeowner myself and assume the same of my clients. We’ve never lost a client to another management company in 19 years.
Ok, those numbers make a lot more sense. Do you find yourself dedicating a lot of time to the business personally or is it almost entirely passive for you with your full-timers handling 99% of the day to day?
I primarily handle the marketing and rates. And homeowners are able to reach me anytime they want - they have my cell number.
Wow - that's definitely far beyond what most PM's offer. Impressive
- 2yCollin HaysBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
I do a fair amount of financial consulting; I formerly was a Series 7 registered representative.
We see ourselves as asset fiduciaries more than property managers per se; I don’t need to make a killing off my clients. If I make a little, it’s all good.
- Member since 2022 · 272 posts · 253 votes2y
A majority of PMs don’t treat the place as their own. Once it’s in their fold, they seldom monitor price, or respond to reviews, etc. if things are operational they consider that “good enough”.
They also don’t know the little details, like where the wine opener is, and so you as the property owner still have to get involved.
and god forbid anything big happened like HVAC or plumbing, they will take 3 days just to get quotes. - Property Manager · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2019 · 58 posts · 38 votes2y
Great responses here! We are in the Indianapolis market and manage about 62 properties right now. 95% of those being STRs and MTRs. We do have a few that are LTRs that we kind of inherited.
I think to truly sell yourself and be an amazing PM you have to be in it for the right reasons. I love what I do. I started the company when I was 21 and sort of fell into it. I wanted to be in real estate, I just didn't know in what capacity. I stumbled into this, realized the opportunity I had and we are now at 62 doors in just about 2 years.
What I like to pride myself on is the true boutique feel and the sense of trust with our clients. I agree with some of the things Collin said (except for VAs, as we have 3). To maximize revenue most PMs charge BS fees and up charge maintenance and even deceive clients. I have seen it happen numerous times.
We are honest, transparent, and open with our clients. We obviously have to make money too. But at least our clients know when we charge them for something, the work is needed, done right, and guaranteed. Same with maintaining the home. We buy things that guests recommend all of the time. 99% of owners love this. Why not? Costs $40, $50, $100 here and there. But it makes a world of difference. Just treating every home like it is your own, and seeing the home through the eyes of a guest. Hiring inspectors to go in after the cleaners to ensure everything is ready for the guest to check in, being available 24/7/365, and sooo much more! I could go on! Haha, but I hope this helped! - Member since 2024 · 31 posts · 16 votes2y
Quote from @Gabe Chase:
Great responses here! We are in the Indianapolis market and manage about 62 properties right now. 95% of those being STRs and MTRs. We do have a few that are LTRs that we kind of inherited.
I think to truly sell yourself and be an amazing PM you have to be in it for the right reasons. I love what I do. I started the company when I was 21 and sort of fell into it. I wanted to be in real estate, I just didn't know in what capacity. I stumbled into this, realized the opportunity I had and we are now at 62 doors in just about 2 years.
What I like to pride myself on is the true boutique feel and the sense of trust with our clients. I agree with some of the things Collin said (except for VAs, as we have 3). To maximize revenue most PMs charge BS fees and up charge maintenance and even deceive clients. I have seen it happen numerous times.
We are honest, transparent, and open with our clients. We obviously have to make money too. But at least our clients know when we charge them for something, the work is needed, done right, and guaranteed. Same with maintaining the home. We buy things that guests recommend all of the time. 99% of owners love this. Why not? Costs $40, $50, $100 here and there. But it makes a world of difference. Just treating every home like it is your own, and seeing the home through the eyes of a guest. Hiring inspectors to go in after the cleaners to ensure everything is ready for the guest to check in, being available 24/7/365, and sooo much more! I could go on! Haha, but I hope this helped!I love this .
Interesting though that the general sentiment for how to be a good property manager seems to boil down to "pay attention to detail" and "actually care about the property, guest, and owner".
I understand that this is easier said than done but is the bar really so low for PM's?
- Property Manager · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2019 · 58 posts · 38 votes2y
Quote from @Braedon Page:
Quote from @Gabe Chase:
Great responses here! We are in the Indianapolis market and manage about 62 properties right now. 95% of those being STRs and MTRs. We do have a few that are LTRs that we kind of inherited.
I think to truly sell yourself and be an amazing PM you have to be in it for the right reasons. I love what I do. I started the company when I was 21 and sort of fell into it. I wanted to be in real estate, I just didn't know in what capacity. I stumbled into this, realized the opportunity I had and we are now at 62 doors in just about 2 years.
What I like to pride myself on is the true boutique feel and the sense of trust with our clients. I agree with some of the things Collin said (except for VAs, as we have 3). To maximize revenue most PMs charge BS fees and up charge maintenance and even deceive clients. I have seen it happen numerous times.
We are honest, transparent, and open with our clients. We obviously have to make money too. But at least our clients know when we charge them for something, the work is needed, done right, and guaranteed. Same with maintaining the home. We buy things that guests recommend all of the time. 99% of owners love this. Why not? Costs $40, $50, $100 here and there. But it makes a world of difference. Just treating every home like it is your own, and seeing the home through the eyes of a guest. Hiring inspectors to go in after the cleaners to ensure everything is ready for the guest to check in, being available 24/7/365, and sooo much more! I could go on! Haha, but I hope this helped!I love this .
Interesting though that the general sentiment for how to be a good property manager seems to boil down to "pay attention to detail" and "actually care about the property, guest, and owner".
I understand that this is easier said than done but is the bar really so low for PM's?
Unfortunately yes… Lots and I mean lots of PMs get into the business for the wrong reasons. I truly think of myself as a partner in every property. Their (our owner’s) success is my success. Gives me a sense of pride. I want ALL of my owners to be crushing it!
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