Smokies Advice- Age & BRs

Smokies Advice- Age & BRs

New to Real Estate · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2018 · 2 posts · 2 votes

Hi BP!  First time poster, couple month lurker ;)

Looking for advice for buying a STR in the Smokies. My sister bought 2 cabins recently from @AveryCarl and I think I've finally convinced my husband to get in on the action!

At this point in life, we are not interested in taking on self managing.  I know that's the way to make the most and some of you are rockstars at it, I just don't think I can swing it right now.  Through researching here I'm leaning toward one of the smaller PMs, but have not done a ton of research in that area.

My questions are around age and size... 

1)Is there any way a new construction would make sense? From what I see on MLS i'll pay maybe $100k more for a new 1br vs an old one... can you charge higher rent for new in this market, or do people not care? Presumably there would be fewer repairs for new consruction... could that make the numbers work out? Obviously the newer ones are pretty to look at but I'm wondering if the numbers would ever work

2) I have read that there is a niche for all numbers of 'bedrooms' (sleeping spaces)... if i had enough money to buy a couple small cabins or 1 bigger cabin, any recommendations?  It seems like multiple cabins would be more difficult than 1 big one, but then the big one would likely be more unpredictable, more seasonal, more likely to get trashed by big parties, etc.  And if im paying for PM, maybe it doesn't matter to me?  Will I pay a higher % PM on different size cabins or does that all work itself out in the price?

Thanks for reading :)

2Reply
112 views

Most Popular Reply

Real Estate Agent · Sevierville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y

@Karen Lomison Very exciting time for you!  I started off with small 1BR cabins, even though @Avery Carl advised me to go bigger, and just like @Justin Anderson suggested in his post, Avery was right re: go big if you can. While my 1BR cabins do great and cash flow very well and are consistently booked year-round, I now have 4 small ones and I've replaced 3 HVACs, 2 roofs, one well... you get the idea (they are all a bit older). I also have one brand new 3BR that I closed on in June, too early to do ROI analysis but I'm confident it's going to be better.

I do not regret my small purchases at all (eh, the one with the well issue I have a little regret about, LOL!) but were I to do it again knowing what I know, I'd definitely make a play for fewer big cabins vs. many smaller ones.

The other thing is - so many people feel more comfortable starting with small cabins, they are REALLY competitive to buy!  Multiple offers/selling for over asking is very common.  While that's still a possibility with a larger cabin, it's not quite as common.  

See this reply in the discussion

27 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Collin HaysBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    The Carls would be my go-to for a lot of these questions, but...

    Yes, a brand new cabin is attractive to many renters.  All other things being equal - view, amenties, location - yes it should rent for more and more often.

    Building in the smokies - hmmm.  I did it and it was a nightmare.  I only recommend it if you hire a babysitter for the contractor.  It took me almost 18 months to get a cabin built there and I swore I’d never attempt it again.

    That being said, I was in it for $330K furnished and it has done $60 a year since, and it’s easily worth $500K or more now due to its unique location, so I came out ok.

    But...you are far better off finding an existing home!

  • Collin HaysBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    I forgot to add, PMs are all over the board. Many will quote you 15%, but rest assured they are completely hosing you in such an arrangement and you won’t even know it.

    My best advice on PMs is to ask for a LIST (not one or two stooges) of homeowner client references.  If they can’t supply that, you know all you need to know.

    Avoid those requiring some silly “contract”.  Only the poor PMs feel the need to lock you in.  Any reputable business allows customers to do something different at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all.  If I don’t like McDonald’s, I should be able to switch to Wendy’s the next day, just because I want to.

  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    6y

    Check Avery's BP podcast. I think she mentioned that she would have rather bought a larger STR than several smaller 2 bedroom units and made more money with less hassle.

    Avery can better speak to this. 

    Based on this I am thinking about starting the search for a 4 or 5 bedroom cabin this fall in PF.

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Collin H. @Bryan Weiss check out Collin’s comment. Might be someone to reach out to...

  • Property Manager · Pigeon Forge · Member since 2016 · 199 posts · 208 votes
    6y

    I can definitely speak to this one...

    I own 4 cabins - 2 1BRs, a 7 BR and an 8 BR.  Three of these were bought from @Avery Carl who is awesome and will steer you right.  I hope/expect to buy another couple this year, too.

    1. Age of the cabin isn't a huge factor in booking and probably less important than a normal SFH or LTR in your home town. People look for the amenities, the reviews, the location and the price. Age of the cabin isn't on the listing and people won't even know. As with any new construction, you'll have a year of shakeout where you find things that aren't quite right -- a plumbing leak, a window seal, etc. But at the same time you'll have all new big ticket items - AC, water heater, roof, stain, etc. Older cabins will have had time to settle and any foundation issues should be easy to spot which is a bonus. New cabins should have a builder warranty. In my mind it's a bit of a wash, all things being equal. (I'd just be careful getting cabins that can feel really dated like some of the ugly A frames in Gatlinburg, the heart shaped jacuzzi tubs, etc)

    2. A real estate mentor of mine told me that I should go for the biggest cabin I could afford, so that's what made me start with a 7BR. That cabin should see upwards of 130k this year and product $3700/m in cash flow, even with the down 6ish weeks of COVID. My 1BR cabins will both see around 45k and throw off is around $1200/m after all expenses. If you factor in big expenses that didn't hit the small ones, the large cabins should have a better COC return over time.

    As for bookings...

    I average over 90% occupancy year round across all the cabins I own/manage.  Jan/Feb are slow but the rest of the year is generally ok.  During peak COVID I was still up around 75% booked while the area was under 10% booked for over 6 weeks.  (I've written programs to do data analysis of the local cabin mgmt companies as well as airbnb/vrbo so I can data mine it)

    I never, ever worry about my small cabins being booked.  Even up to 3 and 4 BR you will book very well for families that want a weekend getaway.  Big cabins tend to book further in advance and definitely felt the downturn more than the small ones.  But it's so nice to get a 9k Christmas week booking in July...

    That said, my booty is always puckered on checkout day for the big cabins wondering what sort of mess the guests left. While the smaller cabins can also get messy, a couple or family rarely trashes the place like a group of 5 families sharing a place.    If you're paying a PM it doesn't matter MUCH, but every now and then expect a bill when an oven door gets ripped off (2 months ago) or something similar.


    Regarding PMs, I've worked with two local companies that charged 25/30%.  One fired me as a client when I was booking more stays than they were (and not paying their commission, of course).  The other I fired after I purchased because I could do better than the 90k in bookings they already had for the year.

    While you can definitely manage yourself, PMs can do a better job for a few things:  on the ground help for guests (removing you from phone calls), setting pricing (maximizing your earnings) and maintaining your investment (keeping it in top shape).  Since this is your investment, be sure to get regular updates and stay on top of it.

    Let me share you an example from a client I just brought on board this week.  He has a beautiful new 3BR cabin in Gatlinburg. From Jan 1-May 31 he brought in $8,000 in bookings using Evolve Vacation Rentals.  Both of my 1BR cabins brought in $9,000 in bookings during that same time frame.  Evolve wasn't squeaking out every dollar for FIVE MONTHS of bookings because they're a big company and don't take a personal interest.   Be sure to ask those hard questions should you go the PM route.

    Happy to geek out about this stuff if you have questions.  I know Luke is happy to share all the specifics on the self-managed side, too.

  • Avery CarlBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · USA · Member since 2016 · 909 posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Justin Anderson they fired you? That’s hilarious!

    OP, there is certainly a time and place for PM’s! You just have to ask the right questions. When I started the only options were the 40% dinosaurs. The landscape has changed over the last several years. You have gotten feedback from a few I would trust with my rentals on this thread.

  • Real Estate Agent · Sevierville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Karen Lomison Very exciting time for you!  I started off with small 1BR cabins, even though @Avery Carl advised me to go bigger, and just like @Justin Anderson suggested in his post, Avery was right re: go big if you can. While my 1BR cabins do great and cash flow very well and are consistently booked year-round, I now have 4 small ones and I've replaced 3 HVACs, 2 roofs, one well... you get the idea (they are all a bit older). I also have one brand new 3BR that I closed on in June, too early to do ROI analysis but I'm confident it's going to be better.

    I do not regret my small purchases at all (eh, the one with the well issue I have a little regret about, LOL!) but were I to do it again knowing what I know, I'd definitely make a play for fewer big cabins vs. many smaller ones.

    The other thing is - so many people feel more comfortable starting with small cabins, they are REALLY competitive to buy!  Multiple offers/selling for over asking is very common.  While that's still a possibility with a larger cabin, it's not quite as common.  

  • Property Manager · Knoxville, TN · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 6 votes
    6y

    @Karen Lomison I’d agree with most everything written above. Whoever, you talk to make sure to check out some of their listings as a guest to see if you see added “booking fees” or “admin fees”. These are fees that PMs pocket and don’t share with the property owners, a practice called “rent shifting”. This is what Collin was getting at when he said that they are “hosing you”. One of our first clients thought he was paying a 20% commission but after I pointed out the rent shifting, we saw that he was actually paying anywhere from 30-50% to the PM.

  • Collin HaysBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Justin Anderson:

    I can definitely speak to this one...

    I own 4 cabins - 2 1BRs, a 7 BR and an 8 BR.  Three of these were bought from @Avery Carl who is awesome and will steer you right.  I hope/expect to buy another couple this year, too.

    1. Age of the cabin isn't a huge factor in booking and probably less important than a normal SFH or LTR in your home town. People look for the amenities, the reviews, the location and the price. Age of the cabin isn't on the listing and people won't even know. As with any new construction, you'll have a year of shakeout where you find things that aren't quite right -- a plumbing leak, a window seal, etc. But at the same time you'll have all new big ticket items - AC, water heater, roof, stain, etc. Older cabins will have had time to settle and any foundation issues should be easy to spot which is a bonus. New cabins should have a builder warranty. In my mind it's a bit of a wash, all things being equal. (I'd just be careful getting cabins that can feel really dated like some of the ugly A frames in Gatlinburg, the heart shaped jacuzzi tubs, etc)

    2. A real estate mentor of mine told me that I should go for the biggest cabin I could afford, so that's what made me start with a 7BR. That cabin should see upwards of 130k this year and product $3700/m in cash flow, even with the down 6ish weeks of COVID. My 1BR cabins will both see around 45k and throw off is around $1200/m after all expenses. If you factor in big expenses that didn't hit the small ones, the large cabins should have a better COC return over time.

    As for bookings...

    I average over 90% occupancy year round across all the cabins I own/manage.  Jan/Feb are slow but the rest of the year is generally ok.  During peak COVID I was still up around 75% booked while the area was under 10% booked for over 6 weeks.  (I've written programs to do data analysis of the local cabin mgmt companies as well as airbnb/vrbo so I can data mine it)

    I never, ever worry about my small cabins being booked.  Even up to 3 and 4 BR you will book very well for families that want a weekend getaway.  Big cabins tend to book further in advance and definitely felt the downturn more than the small ones.  But it's so nice to get a 9k Christmas week booking in July...

    That said, my booty is always puckered on checkout day for the big cabins wondering what sort of mess the guests left. While the smaller cabins can also get messy, a couple or family rarely trashes the place like a group of 5 families sharing a place.    If you're paying a PM it doesn't matter MUCH, but every now and then expect a bill when an oven door gets ripped off (2 months ago) or something similar.


    Regarding PMs, I've worked with two local companies that charged 25/30%.  One fired me as a client when I was booking more stays than they were (and not paying their commission, of course).  The other I fired after I purchased because I could do better than the 90k in bookings they already had for the year.

    While you can definitely manage yourself, PMs can do a better job for a few things:  on the ground help for guests (removing you from phone calls), setting pricing (maximizing your earnings) and maintaining your investment (keeping it in top shape).  Since this is your investment, be sure to get regular updates and stay on top of it.

    Let me share you an example from a client I just brought on board this week.  He has a beautiful new 3BR cabin in Gatlinburg. From Jan 1-May 31 he brought in $8,000 in bookings using Evolve Vacation Rentals.  Both of my 1BR cabins brought in $9,000 in bookings during that same time frame.  Evolve wasn't squeaking out every dollar for FIVE MONTHS of bookings because they're a big company and don't take a personal interest.   Be sure to ask those hard questions should you go the PM route.

    Happy to geek out about this stuff if you have questions.  I know Luke is happy to share all the specifics on the self-managed side, too.

    Regarding the topic of booking your property yourself in tandem with your PM, we would have fired you, too!  Haha.  "Too many cooks in the kitchen".  It is challenge enough to keep up with our own reservations - guest correspondence, payments, chargebacks, calendars, emails.  Sharing these responsibilities intermittently with the homeowner is a recipe for frustration and embarrassment for all parties.  

    If our clients want to micromanage, I steer them to self-manage.  It's not dissimilar to other investments.  In the stock market, if you are an active investor/trader, get yourself a low/no commission account and have at it.  If you want someone else to do the work, hire an investment pro or invest in a good mutual fund. If you hire an investment pro, you can't call him/her every day with your own suggestions on when/what to buy & sell.

    My mother decided to buy a couple of STRs in the Smokies for income, and wanted our management co. to run them.  Knowing she is the very definition of micromanager, I told her "Mom, I'll do it, but only on the condition that you don't call me for every expense that you see on your statement.  Consider the investments a mutual fund and enjoy the income."  So far, so good!  :)

  • Property Manager · Pigeon Forge · Member since 2016 · 199 posts · 208 votes
    6y

    To be fair, I asked permission before I did it.  It all started when I kept having mid-week vacancies they weren't filling - for me every night empty is money lost and for them it's no big deal because they have 300+ cabins.

    They didn't/don't see Airbnb/vrbo as competition and laughed at the thought of me being able to fill vacancies.  I grabbed an ical to prevent double bookings and handled all support of guests I booked, so there was no overlap or confusion.  I was making 50% more bookings than they were before they finally balked.

    That said, I agree that too many cooks can be bad and I'd never recommend what I did to anyone that isn't anal (like your mom).  :)

  • New to Real Estate · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2018 · 2 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    Thank you all for the great advice!  I will definitely be reaching out to learn more.  It's a bit intimidating to get started and I don't want to break any of the rules :)

    One more question that is top of mind:  what do you all think about the big cabins that are right next to a bunch of other cabins?  Does privacy not matter much at a certain size?  From my personal experience, I would want more privacy when vacationing with my husband than a family reunion, but it'd still be nice to have a little bit!  When I look at some of these streets that pack in the cabins... do they still rent well as long as the other things (brs, price, reviews, view) are good?

  • Investor · Blacksburg, VA · Member since 2020 · 65 posts · 33 votes
    6y

    @Avery Carl, @Julie McCoy, @Dylan Robinson, @Collin Hays you guys are freakin rockstars! Sooo much good info! My wife and I are soooo close to getting into this market, but like yal have mentioned, the smaller cabins (2/2, 3/2, 3/3) are REALLY competitive! Yikes! We spent the better part of today running analysis on properties to see if any thing made sense, and to be honest it was slim pickins. Should we be looking for that 4+ bedroom right off the bat? I'm not afraid to go big....if it makes sense! We've already got preapproval for a a substantial amount, and have the capital, but it needs to make sense. The mountain views, indoor pools, hot tubs, etc all seem great, but are the numbers making sense in this new environment of technology and sellers squeezing every penny out of their property? I'm from East TN (went to Oak Ridge High School), and I remember going up to the Smokies as a kid. I didn't track rental property values as a child obviously, but holy crap, this market is super competitive it seems!

  • Avery CarlBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · USA · Member since 2016 · 909 posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Adam Cade I’d have to see your spreadsheets to be able to answer definitively on some of your questions/comments on 1-3 beds. Not everything on the market is going to make sense, but it shouldn’t be terribly difficult to get a 1-3 that makes sense if you have a little patience.

    However, you are correct that the ROI is significantly higher in the 4 bedroom and up range. Indoor pools are going to add an average of 50k in gross annual income compared to a comparable property without one. I'm in the beginning stages of a 1031, and the next purchase I make in this market will mostly likely be a >4 bed plus pool property.

  • Real Estate Agent · Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2019 · 956 posts · 600 votes
    6y

    @Adam Cade I clicked on this just so I could tell you about whatever I read and then saw that you were already here!

  • Investor · Blacksburg, VA · Member since 2020 · 65 posts · 33 votes
    6y

    haha nice! @Kiera Underwood you're freakin awesome!!! That means alot that you took a mental note of our conversation and went searching for amplifying info! People on this forum are just awesome!!

  • Investor · Blacksburg, VA · Member since 2020 · 65 posts · 33 votes
    6y

    @Avery Carl thanks for the inputs! We are looking hard! Stuff is not staying on the market long! And at above asking price...!! We're gonna keep our ear to the ground, but holy moly people aren't fooling around in the Smokies! Over 50% appreciation in 3 years...will this market plateau? For our goals, it's gonna be hard to get into the market with that kind of appreciation it seems.

  • Rental Property Investor · Destin, FL · Member since 2019 · 11 posts · 9 votes
    6y

    I closed at the beginning of June with @Avery Carl’s help and took the advice of everyone and went big (5 bedrooms with a pool) for my first one. Obviously it’s still really early, but I have zero regrets so far. I’m active military with a pretty demanding job at times, but with the right processes in place and a great cleaning crew, a caveman really could do it. 

    I know the market has really picked up, but even at what I paid, my cash on cash this year is projected to be pretty awesome. I know I hit the “post-Covid boom” perfectly, so I’ll stay humble until I see another few months. I’m well above what I projected for thus far.

    When I do this again, there’s no doubt I’m waiting until I have enough stashed up to go 5+ BRs with a pool. I could go smaller earlier, but I wouldn’t see the point. When some guest messages me with the dumbest question ever that’s literally in 3 different messages or guidebooks I’ve already sent him...it’s an easier reply when I remember I’m getting a lot of money to answer his lazy question. That would be a harder pill for me to swallow if it was a 1 BR making significantly less.
     
    Happy to talk numbers @Adam Cade if you are interested. I’m a moderate excel sheet dork...not varsity level...but I’m on the team :)

  • Investor · Blacksburg, VA · Member since 2020 · 65 posts · 33 votes
    6y

    @Johnny Duray thanks for the input! Glad to hear that you are seeing success so far! And I appreciate your thoughts. Like I mentioned in a few posts up, I'm not afraid to go big right out of the gate, if the numbers make sense. That's also good to hear that you feel you got it at a price point which works for your excel sheet goals! It seems like all the 2/2 and 3/3 cabins are getting gobbled up at over asking price! Yikes! Maybe it's time to step up to the plate and go big on the first purchase. I'd love to chat offline when you get a chance! And thats inspiring to hear that you're active duty too. I can totally sympathize with having a demanding job. Some times its a 8 hour day...sometimes its a 16 hour day.

  • Member since 2020 · 15 posts · 6 votes
    6y

    @Johnny Duray Great to hear it's going so well! Do you mind sharing who your cleaners are for your pool cabin? I'm a new investor in the area and the cleaners I've been using seem like they're a little overwhelmed, it's making me nervous.

  • Investor · Blacksburg, VA · Member since 2020 · 65 posts · 33 votes
    6y

    @Josh Madigan do you mind sharing your investment strategy and what you're looking for in a property? Thanks man!

  • Member since 2020 · 15 posts · 6 votes
    6y

    My strategy from the beginning was to seek larger properties for a few reasons.  Your ratio of expenses to $ invested is much more favorable on a larger property vs multiple smaller properties.  I also knew I wanted to buy multiple properties and eventually self manage so fewer, larger properties was much more appealing from a time commitment perspective.  Whereas @Johnny Duray seems to of closed his deal at the perfect time, I purchased my first property at close to the worst possible time, beginning of December 2019.  The first few months were rocky but since June the place is at 100% occupancy giving me the confidence to pull the trigger on another a slightly discounted deal that was put on hold through Covid March-June.  The second property is a new construction 6br pool cabin that I'm excited to list in the coming days.  Shoutout to @Avery Carl for helping me navigate all of this through these crazy times.

  • Investor · Blacksburg, VA · Member since 2020 · 65 posts · 33 votes
    6y

    @Josh Madigan thanks for the input! That's awesome that your property is turning around! 100% occupancy rocks! It boosts my confidence that you went big right out of the gate on your first purchase! My wife and I are waffling back and forth between starting small, or just going full send and buy one big property that will sustain good cash flow for several years, without having to accumulate lots of smaller ones! Would love to chat offline when you get a chance man!

  • New to Real Estate · Prairie Village, KS · Member since 2020 · 12 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    Feeling like we need a "trying to get into the Smoky Mtns" support group! We're doing the same as many of you but hot damn this market is not kidding around. 

  • Property Manager · Pigeon Forge · Member since 2016 · 199 posts · 208 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Amanda Carlo:

    Feeling like we need a "trying to get into the Smoky Mtns" support group! We're doing the same as many of you but hot damn this market is not kidding around. 

    If you're going < 3 bedrooms, my suggestion would be to lock in your preapproval and set up your daily email notifications for new listings.  When you get that email in the morning, if one matches your criteria, make an offer at/around list IMMEDIATELY.  I bet I made 10 offers before snagging one in that price range.  After they accept, THEN you have your inspector go in and make sure it's not sliding down the hill.   I'd often search late at night after the agents add the new properties and before the emails go out just to see if I could find a gem.  Just work your spreadsheets and make sure you know what the most is that you want to pay.

    Be sure to get a good inspector, of course.  One of my cleaners yesterday was telling me about a Gatlinburg house that passed inspection with flying colors, but after closing the city came and shut them down.  Turns out the deck wasn't properly attached to the house and the supports were rotting.  He has no idea how much it is to repair, but it'll be at least 30k.  When you're counting on local experts to help vet your deal, make sure they're experts.

    Most cabins will still cash flow just fine (and way better than a LTR in local markets).  

  • New to Real Estate · Prairie Village, KS · Member since 2020 · 12 posts · 5 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Justin Anderson:
    Originally posted by @Amanda Carlo:

    Feeling like we need a "trying to get into the Smoky Mtns" support group! We're doing the same as many of you but hot damn this market is not kidding around. 

    If you're going < 3 bedrooms, my suggestion would be to lock in your preapproval and set up your daily email notifications for new listings.  When you get that email in the morning, if one matches your criteria, make an offer at/around list IMMEDIATELY.  I bet I made 10 offers before snagging one in that price range.  After they accept, THEN you have your inspector go in and make sure it's not sliding down the hill.   I'd often search late at night after the agents add the new properties and before the emails go out just to see if I could find a gem.  Just work your spreadsheets and make sure you know what the most is that you want to pay.

    Be sure to get a good inspector, of course.  One of my cleaners yesterday was telling me about a Gatlinburg house that passed inspection with flying colors, but after closing the city came and shut them down.  Turns out the deck wasn't properly attached to the house and the supports were rotting.  He has no idea how much it is to repair, but it'll be at least 30k.  When you're counting on local experts to help vet your deal, make sure they're experts.

    Most cabins will still cash flow just fine (and way better than a LTR in local markets).  

     This is WONDERFUL advice! Thank you so much.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.