New investor (Bay Area based) focused on fundamentals and long-term wealth
CA · Member since 2024 · 2 posts · 3 votes
New investor (Bay Area based) focused on fundamentals and long-term wealth
Most Popular Reply
Drew SygitBusiness Member
Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votesYou’re ALWAYS better off investing locally, where it’s easier to:
- Learn the market
- Network to find deals
- Network to find contractors
- Be more hands-on
- Driveby property to keep tabs on it
- Network to find a decent Property Management Company (PMC)
If you invest OOS, your biggest challenge won't be finding properties to meet your goals on paper, it’ll be successfully outsourcing all of the above.
The biggest mistake we see OOS investors making in our market, over and over again, is not fully understanding Neighborhood/Property/Tenant Classes and how they impact your probability of success!
They all run their ROI numbers assuming Class A results – when buying Class B, C & even D rentals.
Then they’re shocked when their performance expectations aren't met😞
If you choose to invest OOS, and have little to no landlord experience, we highly recommend targeting Class B Neighborhoods/Properties/Tenants. If you target Class C, you better be prepared emotionally & financially for plenty of challenges.
You can find Class B properties in the Midwest to BRRRR, but it will take more digging and YOU will need to understand how to analyze & identify them - because a lot of agents, wholesalers, PMCs, etc. will try to sell you Class C or D misrepresented as Class B:
- Many of them don't know/care what Class the properties are, so they're incompetent.
- Others know exactly what they are doing, so should be labeled as crooks!
EITHER WAY YOU LOSE!
Here's some copy & paste advice you might find useful:
Why is Property Class so important for investors to understand and apply in their investing strategies?
Because the Property Class dictates the Class of the tenant pool that the property will attract.
The Tenant Class greatly impacts rental income stability and property maintenance/damage by tenants.
Both Property Class and Tenant Class will affect what type of contractors, handymen and property management companies you should target and be willing to deal with a property.
The Property Class will also impact the maintenance & renovations you do to, “Maintain to the Neighborhood”.
Why is that important?
Well, if you buy & renovate a property in Class D area to Class A standards, what Tenant Class will actually rent it?
Or, if you put several Class D tenants in a Class A four-plex, what do you think will happen to the property?
So, if you fail to apply the correct assumptions to a property, your expectations won’t be met, and it may even be a financial disaster.
We use the following to rank Property Classes, in order of importance:
- Property Tenant Pool: closely linked to location, but not always.
- Property Location: closely linked to tenant pool, but not always.
- Property Condition & Amenities: it’s important to, “Maintain to the Neighborhood.”
Key metrics for each Property Class:
Class A Properties:
Tenant Pool: Majority of FICO scores 680+, no convictions/evictions in last 7 years.
Tenant Default: 0-5% probability of eviction or early lease termination.
Section 8: Class A rents are too high and won’t be approved.
Vacancies: 5-10%, depending on market conditions.
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, 3-5 years for positive cashflow, but you get highest relative rent & value appreciation.
Class B Properties:
Tenant Pool: Majority of FICO scores 620-680, some blemishes, no convictions/evictions in last 5 years.
Tenant Default: 5-10% probability of eviction or early lease termination.
Vacancies: 10-15%, depending on market conditions.
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, 1-3 years for positive cashflow, balanced amounts of relative rent & value appreciation.
Section 8: Class B rents are usually too high for the Section 8 program.
Class C Properties:
Tenant Pool: Majority of FICO scores 560-620, many blemishes, but should have no convictions/evictions in last 3 years. Verifying recent 2-years of rental history very important! Same for 2-years of job/income stability.
Tenant Default: 10-20% probability of eviction or early lease termination.
Section 8: Class C rents usually meet program requirements, proper screening still recommended.
Vacancies: 10-20%, depending on market conditions and tenant screening.
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Should cashflow immediately, at the lower end of relative rent & value appreciation.
Class D Properties:
Tenant Pool: Majority of FICO scores under 560, little to no good tradelines, lots of collections & chargeoffs, but should have no convictions/evictions in last 12 months. Verifying last 2-years of rental history and income/employment extremely important to find the “best of the worst”.
Tenant Default: 20-30% probability of eviction or early lease termination.
Section 8: Class D rents meet program requirements, often challenges to pass Section 8 inspection.
Vacancies: 20%+, depending on market conditions and tenant screening.
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, all cashflow with little, maybe even negative, relative rent & value appreciation.
Where did we get our FICO credit score information from?
Check out this chart:
|
FICO Score |
Pct of Population |
Default Probability |
|
800 or more |
13.00% |
1.00% |
|
750-799 |
27.00% |
1.00% |
|
700-749 |
18.00% |
4.40% |
|
650-699 |
15.00% |
8.90% |
|
600-649 |
12.00% |
15.80% |
|
550-599 |
8.00% |
22.50% |
|
500-549 |
5.00% |
28.40% |
|
Less than 499 |
2.00% |
41.00% |
Make sure you understand the Class of properties you are looking at and the corresponding results to expect.
Metro Detroit has 132 cities, the City of Detroit 183 Neighborhoods, which we’re analyzing and classifying. Check out the map on our website where we’ve made this all easy to follow.
We can also share numerous examples of properties & portfolios we’ve assisted investors with!
DM us if you’d like to discuss this logical approach in greater detail!
Horror Stories from those that did NOT Understand What they were Buying:
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/48/topics/1137397-baltimore-a-path-to-never-ending-pain
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/432/topics/1231840-sell-at-a-loss-or-rent-at-a-loss
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/311/topics/840134-memphis-turnkey-tenant-turnover-costs
Logical Property Management4.9459 Reviews
6 Replies
- 9moDrew SygitBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
You’re ALWAYS better off investing locally, where it’s easier to:
- Learn the market
- Network to find deals
- Network to find contractors
- Be more hands-on
- Driveby property to keep tabs on it
- Network to find a decent Property Management Company (PMC)
If you invest OOS, your biggest challenge won't be finding properties to meet your goals on paper, it’ll be successfully outsourcing all of the above.
The biggest mistake we see OOS investors making in our market, over and over again, is not fully understanding Neighborhood/Property/Tenant Classes and how they impact your probability of success!
They all run their ROI numbers assuming Class A results – when buying Class B, C & even D rentals.
Then they’re shocked when their performance expectations aren't met😞
If you choose to invest OOS, and have little to no landlord experience, we highly recommend targeting Class B Neighborhoods/Properties/Tenants. If you target Class C, you better be prepared emotionally & financially for plenty of challenges.
You can find Class B properties in the Midwest to BRRRR, but it will take more digging and YOU will need to understand how to analyze & identify them - because a lot of agents, wholesalers, PMCs, etc. will try to sell you Class C or D misrepresented as Class B:
- Many of them don't know/care what Class the properties are, so they're incompetent.
- Others know exactly what they are doing, so should be labeled as crooks!
EITHER WAY YOU LOSE!
Here's some copy & paste advice you might find useful:
Why is Property Class so important for investors to understand and apply in their investing strategies?
Because the Property Class dictates the Class of the tenant pool that the property will attract.
The Tenant Class greatly impacts rental income stability and property maintenance/damage by tenants.
Both Property Class and Tenant Class will affect what type of contractors, handymen and property management companies you should target and be willing to deal with a property.
The Property Class will also impact the maintenance & renovations you do to, “Maintain to the Neighborhood”.
Why is that important?
Well, if you buy & renovate a property in Class D area to Class A standards, what Tenant Class will actually rent it?
Or, if you put several Class D tenants in a Class A four-plex, what do you think will happen to the property?
So, if you fail to apply the correct assumptions to a property, your expectations won’t be met, and it may even be a financial disaster.
We use the following to rank Property Classes, in order of importance:
- Property Tenant Pool: closely linked to location, but not always.
- Property Location: closely linked to tenant pool, but not always.
- Property Condition & Amenities: it’s important to, “Maintain to the Neighborhood.”
Key metrics for each Property Class:
Class A Properties:
Tenant Pool: Majority of FICO scores 680+, no convictions/evictions in last 7 years.
Tenant Default: 0-5% probability of eviction or early lease termination.
Section 8: Class A rents are too high and won’t be approved.
Vacancies: 5-10%, depending on market conditions.
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, 3-5 years for positive cashflow, but you get highest relative rent & value appreciation.Class B Properties:
Tenant Pool: Majority of FICO scores 620-680, some blemishes, no convictions/evictions in last 5 years.
Tenant Default: 5-10% probability of eviction or early lease termination.
Vacancies: 10-15%, depending on market conditions.
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, 1-3 years for positive cashflow, balanced amounts of relative rent & value appreciation.
Section 8: Class B rents are usually too high for the Section 8 program.Class C Properties:
Tenant Pool: Majority of FICO scores 560-620, many blemishes, but should have no convictions/evictions in last 3 years. Verifying recent 2-years of rental history very important! Same for 2-years of job/income stability.
Tenant Default: 10-20% probability of eviction or early lease termination.
Section 8: Class C rents usually meet program requirements, proper screening still recommended.
Vacancies: 10-20%, depending on market conditions and tenant screening.
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Should cashflow immediately, at the lower end of relative rent & value appreciation.
Class D Properties:
Tenant Pool: Majority of FICO scores under 560, little to no good tradelines, lots of collections & chargeoffs, but should have no convictions/evictions in last 12 months. Verifying last 2-years of rental history and income/employment extremely important to find the “best of the worst”.
Tenant Default: 20-30% probability of eviction or early lease termination.
Section 8: Class D rents meet program requirements, often challenges to pass Section 8 inspection.
Vacancies: 20%+, depending on market conditions and tenant screening.
Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, all cashflow with little, maybe even negative, relative rent & value appreciation.
Where did we get our FICO credit score information from?
Check out this chart:
FICO Score
Pct of Population
Default Probability
800 or more
13.00%
1.00%
750-799
27.00%
1.00%
700-749
18.00%
4.40%
650-699
15.00%
8.90%
600-649
12.00%
15.80%
550-599
8.00%
22.50%
500-549
5.00%
28.40%
Less than 499
2.00%
41.00%
Make sure you understand the Class of properties you are looking at and the corresponding results to expect.
Metro Detroit has 132 cities, the City of Detroit 183 Neighborhoods, which we’re analyzing and classifying. Check out the map on our website where we’ve made this all easy to follow.
We can also share numerous examples of properties & portfolios we’ve assisted investors with!
DM us if you’d like to discuss this logical approach in greater detail!
Horror Stories from those that did NOT Understand What they were Buying:
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/48/topics/1137397-baltimore-a-path-to-never-ending-pain
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/432/topics/1231840-sell-at-a-loss-or-rent-at-a-loss
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/311/topics/840134-memphis-turnkey-tenant-turnover-costs
Logical Property Management4.9459 Reviews - 9moBernice RetzloffPro MemberMemphis, TN · Member since 2024 · 234 posts · 100 votes
Hey @Cameron Jones! Happy new year and welcome!
Sounds like you’re taking a very thoughtful, disciplined approach, which honestly puts you ahead of a lot of people who rush into their first deal. Spending time really understanding underwriting, market fundamentals, and operations before deploying capital is never wasted time, especially if your focus is long-term wealth rather than chasing quick cash flow.
Being flexible on geography is also a big advantage, particularly coming from the Bay Area. Many investors start local for familiarity, then realize their goals are better served by markets where the fundamentals align more cleanly with their strategy and where professional property management can handle day-to-day ops as they scale.
If it’s helpful for context, I’m a real estate agent based in Memphis, TN, and I work primarily with out-of-state investors who take a similar long-term, fundamentals-first approach. Even for investors who aren’t prioritizing immediate cash flow, markets like Memphis can still make sense when you look at replacement cost, rent stability, and the ability to build a diversified portfolio with professional management.
Happy to connect, compare notes, or help answer questions as you continue learning and refining your strategy! Looking forward to seeing your journey unfold here in the community.
- 6445 Citation Dr # F Village of Clarkston, MI 48346 · Member since 2024 · 20 posts · 4 votes9mo
Hey Cameron!
Welcome to the community. It sounds like you have a very clear picture of what your goals are, with enough flexibility to stay open-minded about new things that can come your way.
You definitely came to the right place to learn the ins and outs of the industry the right way. There's a ton of information on these forums from all different sorts of investing. It can be overwhelming at times, but all in a positive way.
Do you have a timeline, unit count, or portfolio value goal?
- CA · Member since 2024 · 2 posts · 3 votes8mo
Thanks @Bernice Retzloff , I really appreciate the thoughtful welcome and perspective and happy New Year. I'm pleased to see my approach to really understanding the core concepts you outlined is a worthy endeavor and hope that it makes a big difference long term.
I'm planning to stay in learning and comparison mode for a bit and value hearing how experienced investors such as yourself think about different markets and approaches. Looking forward to learning from the discussions here!
Thank you, @Germain Lesur, appreciate the welcome.
Indeed I'm finding a lot of very valuable information already in my short time here. I do have clear objectives around building durable, well-underwritten investments, but I'm intending to get the framework and decision criteria right before setting specific unit count targets or timelines.
At a high level, I'm focused on long-term holds with conservative assumptions, professional management, and downside protection. After this is well optimized, I plan to get more specific on structure and scale.
Cameron
- 7moBo SmithPro MemberHinton, WV · Member since 2026 · 1k+ posts · 373 votes
Smart approach - fundamentals first saves you from expensive mistakes later. One thing that helped me early on: before you even look at deals, nail down your exact criteria numbers (min cash-on-cash, cap rates, markets). Makes underwriting way faster when you find properties. What's your biggest challenge right now - finding the right market or getting comfortable with the numbers?
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.