Former poker player, very new at real estate

Former poker player, very new at real estate

Barcelona, Barcelona · Member since 2018 · 4 posts · 2 votes

Hi!

Im Fredrik from Oslo, Norway and 31 years old. Just found this community by browswing the internett, actually looking for a community like this.  Im 31 years old and just moved to Barcelona. Been living around the world the last 10 years, mainly in Asia and South America. 

Last 5 years I've been a professional online poker player, and still am. But due to AI and not knowing wether Im playing vs a human being or a computer these days, its time for me to move into new ventures.  I am very very excited about being a beginner at something again. Finding this forum with loads of information that im ready to dive into is both overwhelming, but more extremely exciting. It reminds me when I was starting out at poker, had no clue of where to start, and finally found an online community where I could start learning endlessly. 

I became very good at poker ( after years of effort and a roller coaster of emotion), and I'm today considered by many, one of the absolute best, if not the best heads up players in poker in the world online. The last year, as online poker has been dying, Ive been playing mainly live in Macau China, and still does that 5-6 months a year depending on when games are running.

Therefor the rest of the year, I got all the time in the world to pursue something else. I was recommended a real estate book called property magic by a friend, and quickly realized the potential. Its something I could see myself learning more about, as its more to it than what I in the past been thinking. The fact that you with experience and education can become very good at it and that you are never truly a master is something that attracts me. I enjoy putting endless of hours into on skill and trying to become great at something.  My rise through the stakes in poker is something that gave me endless joy, and I can see similarities to RE already.

Im just looking to learn from the people/members on biggerpockets, as if its one thing thats sure, is that Im a complete beginner and has no experience in this. Looking to, as I get better, participate as much as I can. As an note from poker was that the day I got truly good, was the day I took on students and taught others, as I had to really ask myself why Im doing things. so being active in an forum/community seems like a great thing. So Im just looking to network, learn, and maybe find someone that will teach me one day.

Ive been fortunate in poker and therefore starting out with substantially more capital than most does in RE I believe. Im sure this could be both a blessing and a curse. So for now the only thing that really matters to me is learning, and im not in a rush to make money. Last month Ive read through some books on RE and starting scouting this forum and articles. I feel im just touching the tip of an iceberg, and just very excited to move into something new. Looking forward to interact with you guys in the forums.  Any advice on anything is deeply appreciated of where I should go from now. 

My plan is to start out with buying a few apartments in Barcelona when I get to know the city better. For now I will just scout listings, go to viewings, learn the neighborhoods, talk to people and continue learning. Commercial real estate down the line looks also very interesting. Just finished a book on that called crushing it by Brian Murray. Sky is the limit.

One of my issues atm is that it will get hard for me to get a mortgage in any bank. I can show to any income, as they dont consider my poker winnings income. I do want to leverage as I realize the power of that, but yeah. Havent spoken to any bank yet, so this is just speculations. I got enough to buy several apartments without an mortgage, but I would like to leverage my money.

Regards

Fredrik Kaarem

2Reply
57 views

Most Popular Reply

Barcelona, Catalunya · Member since 2017 · 9 posts · 7 votes
8y

Welcome to Barcelona, @Fredrik Kaarem

Take a look at the BRRRR strategy, and assume that 'BR' is all cash. The banks will step-up to refi once they see solid cashflow on the rents and good debt coverage. You will need to be speaking with the national banks, as most of the non-Spanish banks won't take on Spanish Real Estate Investments without a strong track record. Further, consider local residency and starting your SL / Holding process sooner-than-later... or the taxes and bureaucracy can become painful.

The market in Barcelona is a little tricky right now... still deals to be had, but you'll need to really dig around and define your objectives.

If you are looking to buy individual flats, talk to @Adrià Creixell and @Erwin Groenendijk -- both of these guys have been running pretty hard the past couple years and doing well. If you decide to look at acquiring buildings, I would be happy to share some experiences.

As Jay mentioned, take some caution and keep your cards close to your chest. Double that for Spain.

See this reply in the discussion

18 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    8y

    Whoa- super cool background, Fredrik! Very unique.

    I have an almost as unique approach to get $ out of free and clear apt bldgs (5+ unit commercial) I think.

    Commercial lenders in my area don't like cash out refi's, so they'll only go up to 50-60% of value. Theyll rate and term refi up to 70%, so I self-encumbered them and my houses with my own generic sounding s-corp I originally started as my mgt co.  I just placed about $600k of 'loans' on a 10 unit and will let simmer a while. Don't need the capital now anyway.

    Self-encumbring also doubles as some liability protection  by appearing leveraged. Try and run this by legal and tax pros in your area but don't be surprised if they look at you cross-eyed.  Mine did, but I'm used to it. As long as you know how to record the reconveyance or satisfaction...

    An option might be to buy with cash at discounts and refi later. Your 'income' won't matter as much as the property's.  Good luck an congrats killing it in poker!

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    @Steve Vaughan banking is much different on the other side of the pond.

    But that all said.. yes interesting background..

    on your self dealing financing I am surprised your lenders have not connected the dots.. but then again not always the sharpest tools.. you would have a tax return for those entities they should be able to see they are yours :)

    @Fredrik Kaarem  this is a very nice forum.. but just like any where in the world there are a lot of scammers that troll BP looking for newer investors and those with money.. so be vary cautious when your approached by those with great ideas and your money.

    I think you are on the right track keep your investments close to you where you can keep an eye on them.. I know most banks over your way will do or require 50% cash down before you get a loan..

    Not sure on the income requirement.. in the states as long as your paying tax on gambling winnings you can be a professional gambler and use that income for loan purposes.

    WElcome to BP.. hope you make some great connections here.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Steve Vaughan banking is much different on the other side of the pond.

    But that all said.. yes interesting background..

    on your self dealing financing I am surprised your lenders have not connected the dots.. but then again not always the sharpest tools.. you would have a tax return for those entities they should be able to see they are yours :)

    @Fredrik Kaarem  this is a very nice forum.. but just like any where in the world there are a lot of scammers that troll BP looking for newer investors and those with money.. so be vary cautious when your approached by those with great ideas and your money.

    I think you are on the right track keep your investments close to you where you can keep an eye on them.. I know most banks over your way will do or require 50% cash down before you get a loan..

    Not sure on the income requirement.. in the states as long as your paying tax on gambling winnings you can be a professional gambler and use that income for loan purposes.

    WElcome to BP.. hope you make some great connections here.

    My main purpose for self-encumbering is to appear leveraged to any asset check snoopers, but good points. I haven't seen anyone mention that as an idea before here and  I have no idea how Norway banking works.

    Mostly wanted to respond to thank you for mentioning me in a beware of scammers warning :)    Yes, Fredrik. Keep your cards close to the vest out there!

  • Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Jay Hinrichs You took the words out of my mouth. @Steve Vaughan banking is very different everywhere outside of the US. The US is a very business-friendly country with amazing laws that help an entrepreneur (relative to most countries). What you are proposing might not necessarily work in other countries. 

    @Fredrik Kaarem You've got an interesting background. I would use your "status" as a solid poker player to start networking with business people/entrepreneurs you will invariably meet when playing poker. 

    These folks will be your best conduit to banking and investment relationships. Plus, private bankers will also be able to guide you as to who best to structure your portfolio to ensure you get the best banking services. In particular, as a European if you know the right bankers it will be very easy for you to open accounts within private banks (especially in Asia). You can then "transfer" your banking relationships to European banks. 

    In Europe and Asia, bankers, in particular, are a great resource to connect investors with opportunities. This is because of the inefficiency of the RE markets outside the US. 

    The US is a great example of a market that is becoming less and less inefficient because of the amount of data available. That is not the case in most other (even developed) markets. 

  • Barcelona, Barcelona · Member since 2018 · 4 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @Steve Vaughan  

    Wow what a great place. Got response already and advices . Thanks Steve. I will look into the approaches you recommend here, very interesting. The fact you saying that my income dosent matter as much as the propertys suprised me, is this more for commercial properties as they will most likely generate more NOI?

    @Jay Hinrichs
    Yeah I have been approved a tax emigrant from Norway since haven't lived there for 9 years, so as long as I don't stay in one place more than 180 days in a calendar year, I'm not taxable to anywhere atm. Therefor as I don't file any taxes, I don't officially have an income either.  

    Yeah I'm having a meeting with a bank tomorrow, if you say they could potentially give me 50%, then I guess that isn't too bad to begin with.

    I will take your advice on scammers on this forum very seriously. Highly apprecaited.

    Thanks guys

  • Rental Property Investor · Sandefjord, Norway · Member since 2015 · 202 posts · 87 votes
    8y

    @Fredrik Kaarem hello, great to see another Norwegian with aspirations of investing in real estate abroad. I myself live in Dubai and invest in several countries. I’ve been a full time investor for 5 years now and would be happy to share the knowledge I’ve accumulated over the years. 

    I’m no expert on the Barcelona market, but given the political situation in that region, it seems like there is too much risk to justify the reward. Seems like -EV if u ask me. Given the chance of a new financial crisis is getting higher and higher, to me it makes a lot more sense to play defense until the market has calmed down. 

    Depending on your investment goals, I would suggest you consider investing in USA because of its tax laws and if cash flow is what you are after, then look to the Midwest. I got 6 houses in Indianapolis and they are performing very nicely. 

    If you have more capital than your average start up investor, I would suggest you consider start investing in commercial properties that are in industries that are resilient to market crashes at this point. 

    I’m buying an apartment complex in Florida this year with about 30 apartments which will likely be very resilient to a crash situation. Doctors offices can also perform strongly. Happy to share more in private conversations so reach out if you like!

  • Barcelona, Barcelona · Member since 2018 · 4 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @Omar Khan

    Omar yeah I heard about private banking in places like Hong kong or Singapore might be the right place for me to go and something I will look more seriously into now that you are mentioning the same thing. 

    And yes I do meet a lot of interesting people at the poker table, but these days they are often Chinese with very limited English, although yes very successful individuals.

    Thanks for the advice. Already very happy about participating here.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Fredrik Kaarem:

    @Steve Vaughan  

    Wow what a great place. Got response already and advices . Thanks Steve. I will look into the approaches you recommend here, very interesting. The fact you saying that my income dosent matter as much as the propertys suprised me, is this more for commercial properties as they will most likely generate more NOI?

    @Jay Hinrichs
    Yeah I have been approved a tax emigrant from Norway since haven't lived there for 9 years, so as long as I don't stay in one place more than 180 days in a calendar year, I'm not taxable to anywhere atm. Therefor as I don't file any taxes, I don't officially have an income either.  

    Yeah I'm having a meeting with a bank tomorrow, if you say they could potentially give me 50%, then I guess that isn't too bad to begin with.

    I will take your advice on scammers on this forum very seriously. Highly apprecaited.

    Thanks guys

    Exactly. Commercial property doesn't rely as much on your income for loans as residential does. In the US anyway... 

  • Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Fredrik Kaarem Major European banks have branches in HK and Singapore. In particular - Standard Chartered, HSBC, Lloyds, Citi and some smaller Swiss banks - are great for what you're trying to do i.e. develop banking relationships in Asia to use lending services in Europe. 

  • Barcelona, Catalunya · Member since 2017 · 9 posts · 7 votes
    8y

    Welcome to Barcelona, @Fredrik Kaarem

    Take a look at the BRRRR strategy, and assume that 'BR' is all cash. The banks will step-up to refi once they see solid cashflow on the rents and good debt coverage. You will need to be speaking with the national banks, as most of the non-Spanish banks won't take on Spanish Real Estate Investments without a strong track record. Further, consider local residency and starting your SL / Holding process sooner-than-later... or the taxes and bureaucracy can become painful.

    The market in Barcelona is a little tricky right now... still deals to be had, but you'll need to really dig around and define your objectives.

    If you are looking to buy individual flats, talk to @Adrià Creixell and @Erwin Groenendijk -- both of these guys have been running pretty hard the past couple years and doing well. If you decide to look at acquiring buildings, I would be happy to share some experiences.

    As Jay mentioned, take some caution and keep your cards close to your chest. Double that for Spain.

  • Investor · Barcelona, Catalunya · Member since 2017 · 14 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    Hey @Fredrik Kaarem! 

    I'm also Norwegian, living in Barcelona. Happy to share my (fairly limited) experience with the Barcelona property market. I only own one apartment here, but I've done quite a lot of research that might be useful for you, depending on your needs. I also work at Schibsted Media Group - owner of Fotocasa and Habitaclia (2nd and 3rd biggest real estate websites in Spain), so I have a pretty good overview of the online aspects of the Spanish real estate market.

    Happy to meet up for a beer sometime to talk more :)

  • Investor · Barcelona & Valencia (Spain) · Member since 2017 · 322 posts · 177 votes
    8y

    A good choice to come to Barcelona, @Fredrik Kaarem, although the weather today is feeling like North Europe ;-)

    Good to see that already experienced and knowledgeable people are responding to your post. Like @Dougan Milne, @Alexander Svanevik, and @Adrià Creixell, they are definitely the ones to talk to with the local feeling.  

    As there is input given by multiple people, what do you (and the others) say about coming all together after the information has sinked in? Adria and me are organizing a Real Estate meet up the 28th of March in the evening. Interesting to hear several backgrounds at once.

    Cheers,

    Erwin

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    8y

    Welcome to BP. There is another prominent BP member who played poker, namely @J Scott ...

  • Barcelona, Barcelona · Member since 2018 · 4 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    Overwhelmed by the responses and friendliness here. @Erwin Groenendijk  I would love to attend!

  • Investor · Saint Nicolas, Québec · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 20 votes
    8y

    heads up for rollz

    I played full time for 1 year, I wasn't good enough to pull good money and was miserable (fish on a heater 100%) so moved on, my hourly plummeted when I went full time, glad I tried thought. Good luck man, poker > RE is a great move, do not hesitate to partner up with someone with residency/income, 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

    You will lose motivation to grind eventually especially if you buy right and get decent income from RE fast, so better be ready to adapt your financial life. ;)

  • Investor · Barcelona & Valencia (Spain) · Member since 2017 · 322 posts · 177 votes
    8y

    @Fredrik Kaarem, @Dougan Milne, @Alexander Svanevik, here is our Meet up link: 

    https://www.meetup.com/Real-Estate-Investors-in-Ba...

    Looking forward to meet you guys having a beer

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    8y

    My brother was a professional poker player before joining me and my dad investing in real estate. Seems to be a bit of a trend. Anyways, welcome and best of luck!

  • Investor · Taylor Mill, KY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 964 votes
    8y

    @Fredrik Kaarem awesome background, welcome to BP!

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.