Consumer Credit Card Act and Loaded Weapons?

Consumer Credit Card Act and Loaded Weapons?

Real Estate Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2008 · 456 posts · 42 votes

I was reading an article on concealed weapons today. Actually, it can be found here if you're interested in that

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090722/ap_on_go_co/us_concealed_weapons

but that isn't really the topic here. I read through this article and got to the end to see this:

In May, President Barack Obama signed into law a consumer credit card act that also restored the rights of people to carry loaded weapons in national parks.

lol! Now I knew about the Consumer Credit Card Act and I own both guns and credit cards but I fail to see how one has to do with the other. I was just floored. I'd never heard that before. But I thought I would show this as an example of how things get pushed through the system without the American people knowing about it. Hide it in with something really popular and run it through.

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Real Estate Investor · Member since 2008 · 340 posts · 34 votes
17y

I have noticed throughout this thread that others are using other countries as examples to prove a point. But be careful. Most of the counties that have been mentioned are social democracies, or democracies using the parliamentary system.

America is truly unique, in that it is a Republic that was born out of the ashes of a revolution against tyranny. True Republics are rare in the history of the world. Because they contain strong executive branches, they lend themselves to evolving into dictatorships.

The founding fathers knew this. They assumed that at some point the people would have to turn against a federalist government if it became too powerful and tyrannical. Hence, why gun ownership is at the core of this country’s founding.

Guns, muskets and cannons gave us our freedom and they protect our freedom against enemies foreign and domestic.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Originally posted by Mr_Investor:
    And maybe that is why you don't see any foreign country invading us. No country would stand a chance if they were to invade US soil.


    DO you really think that the possession of guns by individuals keep foreign governments from invading this country? Maybe it is the might and sophistication of the US military that keeps those "invaders" out?


    Considering that's exactly what an enemy general said about America, yes. It certainly is a major factor.
  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by MikeOH:
    The bottom line is that the citizens of the United States have RIGHTS to include the freedom of speech and the freedom to bear arms. When the morons in the government decide to take away my rights - they better come heavily armed! This is EXACTLY what I was talking about in a previous thread "Is ANYTHING worth fighting for". If Eddie is willing to have his rights turned into privileges, that's fine. I AM NOT!

    Mike


    Mike, I think you underestimate the democratic core of this country. I think that there is some kind of historical (And hysterical I might add) notion in some part of the country that the US government is "out to get us". The closest we ever got in modern history is the enactment of the patriot act.
  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Originally posted by MikeOH:
    The bottom line is that the citizens of the United States have RIGHTS to include the freedom of speech and the freedom to bear arms. When the morons in the government decide to take away my rights - they better come heavily armed! This is EXACTLY what I was talking about in a previous thread "Is ANYTHING worth fighting for". If Eddie is willing to have his rights turned into privileges, that's fine. I AM NOT!

    Mike


    This is why the issue of a president being a natural born citizen is so important. (Relax liberals, I'm not insinuating anything.) A natural born citizen just doesn't have that same upbringing within the US System and that same core perspective of what is a right and what is a privilege.



    Tim I don't think that was the reason. The reason,the way I see it, is to eliminate any possibility of loyal duality. If there is ever a case of a conflict between the US and the country of the president origin(Should the law allowed naturalized citizen to become presidents), that could raise a question of loyalty. I absolutely support that president should be natural born citizen.
  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Considering that's exactly what an enemy general said about America, yes. It certainly is a major factor.

    Who exactly are you referring to? Who is that "enemy general"?

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Considering that's exactly what an enemy general said about America, yes. It certainly is a major factor.


    Who exactly are you referring to? Who is that "enemy general"?



    General Yamomoto, WWII. It was the last time an enemy country had any real plans (that we know of) of an actual land invasion into the US in a time of war.
  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    The closest we ever got in modern history is the enactment of the patriot act.


    We've done much worse less than one lifetime ago. Internment camps, draft (which you mentioned), McCarthyism.... We forget that we have a national election of a branch of government every 2 years and can change course on things that turn out to not be right.
  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Originally posted by MikeOH:
    The bottom line is that the citizens of the United States have RIGHTS to include the freedom of speech and the freedom to bear arms. When the morons in the government decide to take away my rights - they better come heavily armed! This is EXACTLY what I was talking about in a previous thread "Is ANYTHING worth fighting for". If Eddie is willing to have his rights turned into privileges, that's fine. I AM NOT!

    Mike


    This is why the issue of a president being a natural born citizen is so important. (Relax liberals, I'm not insinuating anything.) A natural born citizen just doesn't have that same upbringing within the US System and that same core perspective of what is a right and what is a privilege.



    Tim I don't think that was the reason. The reason,the way I see it, is to eliminate any possibility of loyal duality. If there is ever a case of a conflict between the US and the country of the president origin(Should the law allowed naturalized citizen to become presidents), that could raise a question of loyalty. I absolutely support that president should be natural born citizen.


    Yes, but you don't need duality of two competing countries to have an internal duality of the system you were raised in vs. the system you are supposed to lead. A person raised as a communist or under a monarchy or theocracy would bring that with them into office.
  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Considering that's exactly what an enemy general said about America, yes. It certainly is a major factor.


    Who exactly are you referring to? Who is that "enemy general"?



    General Yamomoto, WWII. It was the last time an enemy country had any real plans (that we know of) of an actual land invasion into the US in a time of war.


    I love historic lessons as long as they are relevant. In WWII the ratio of power might in the world was different. The American might was not tested prior to the US participation. Today, the reality is different. (Although, even then, I don't think that personal gun possession would have been the cause to the Japanese defeat.)
    US Military has no parallel today with regard to size and sophistication (Mainly sophistication ...) Even if the Chinese start marching tomorrow through the Bering Strait, the personal guns would not be the ones to stop them. It would be the US military.
  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Considering that's exactly what an enemy general said about America, yes. It certainly is a major factor.


    Who exactly are you referring to? Who is that "enemy general"?



    General Yamomoto, WWII. It was the last time an enemy country had any real plans (that we know of) of an actual land invasion into the US in a time of war.


    I love historic lessons as long as they are relevant. In WWII the ratio of power might in the world was different. The American might was not tested prior to the US participation. Today, the reality is different. (Although, even then, I don't think that personal gun possession would have been the cause to the Japanese defeat.)
    US Military has no parallel today with regard to size and sophistication (Mainly sophistication ...) Even if the Chinese start marching tomorrow through the Bering Strait, the personal guns would not be the ones to stop them. It would be the US military.


    I'm not disagreeing with you in the practicalities of what probably would happen, but you're disregarding the "deterrent" factor. Even if by some means currently unknown some military force broke through the US military, they would be facing a second armed force 30 times more numerous. That's an effective deterrent. Sure my property may be protected by 5 dobermans, but if criminals knew that even if they got through the 5 dobermans they'd be facing 150 more guard dogs - they'd pick someplace else.
  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    [ I love historic lessons as long as they are relevant. In WWII the ratio of power might in the world was different. The American might was not tested prior to the US participation. Today, the reality is different. (Although, even then, I don't think that personal gun possession would have been the cause to the Japanese defeat.)
    US Military has no parallel today with regard to size and sophistication (Mainly sophistication ...) Even if the Chinese start marching tomorrow through the Bering Strait, the personal guns would not be the ones to stop them. It would be the US military.


    I'm not disagreeing with you in the practicalities of what probably would happen, but you're disregarding the "deterrent" factor. Even if by some means currently unknown some military force broke through the US military, they would be facing a second armed force 30 times more numerous. That's an effective deterrent. Sure my property may be protected by 5 dobermans, but if criminals knew that even if they got through the 5 dobermans they'd be facing 150 more guard dogs - they'd pick someplace else.


    This argument becomes so theoretical that its looses it point.
    1. I don't think that personal possession of weaponry (Or lack thereof) is the main motivator or deterrent for any invasion.
    2. Beyond the federal government, every state have enough state's and local forces that are far more powerful then any personal held gun (National guard, state police, sheriff, local police forces, etc.)
  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    1. I don't think that personal possession of weaponry (Or lack thereof) is the main motivator or deterrent for any invasion.

    And I think it is, so we disagree. That's fine.

    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    2. Beyond the federal government, every state have enough state's and local forces that are far more powerful then any personal held gun (National guard, state police, sheriff, local police forces, etc.)


    What data do you have to back this up? They are all limited resources.
  • Barry O.Pro Member
    Investor · Imperial Beach, CA · Member since 2008 · 51 posts · 14 votes
    17y

    Interesting Augument on the military aspect.
    The last time the draft was going was 1973.
    So with todays all volunteer force you could never have a kent state again!
    The troops would deffinatly question an order fire.
    Also if you want a good example of what would happen if the US where invaded look to the state department disbading the Iraq miliitary and telling all those troops to just go home. They did and took their weapons with them.
    How long did it take us to get them to stop fighting us.
    Thats what would happen in the US if somebody invaded, only we are better armed as a civilian population.
    Now on the "right to bear arms" thats what keeps those banks and politicians from just plain stealing everything thats not nailed down! Would I ever give up my right to bear arms, right after I give up my right to vote and free speech. Which is when those rights will go away!

  • Barry O.Pro Member
    Investor · Imperial Beach, CA · Member since 2008 · 51 posts · 14 votes
    17y

    Police and national guard units are just a quick reaction force and could not last more than a couple of hours in an uprising of any duration. Not enough manpower or reserve assets to keep going in the fight.
    True power lays with those with nothing left to lose.
    So what are you going to do kill me, yea, not if I get you first.
    Which is why the government worlks so hard at keeping the sheople happy.

  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Barry Orell:
    Now on the "right to bear arms" thats what keeps those banks and politicians from just plain stealing everything thats not nailed down! Would I ever give up my right to bear arms, right after I give up my right to vote and free speech. Which is when those rights will go away!


    They are doing it anyway, arms or no arms. They just got more sophisticated at it.... :wink:
  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    1. I don't think that personal possession of weaponry (Or lack thereof) is the main motivator or deterrent for any invasion.


    And I think it is, so we disagree. That's fine.

    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    2. Beyond the federal government, every state have enough state's and local forces that are far more powerful then any personal held gun (National guard, state police, sheriff, local police forces, etc.)


    What data do you have to back this up? They are all limited resources.


    I didn't see any data to back up your claims either, but again this is a theoretical argument that IMO would be close to "never" materialize.
  • Barry O.Pro Member
    Investor · Imperial Beach, CA · Member since 2008 · 51 posts · 14 votes
    17y

    They are doing it anyway, arms or no arms. They just got more sophisticated at it....

    Yes, Just love that patriot act.
    Hay guys, just trying to keep the bad guys out!

  • Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    I didn't see any data to back up your claims either, but again this is a theoretical argument that IMO would be close to "never" materialize.


    Reread it then Eddie. I gave you data on the entire number of armed civilians in the US vs. the entirety of armed government employees. The entire number of armed civilians in the US vs. China's entire military force. All that data is here.
  • Real Estate Investor · ten mile, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 374 votes
    17y

    The other main difference in history is that almost all other countries are controlled by a socialist regeime who controls who can control or own property. Here we extent that right to everyone and it is exactly that pride in ownership that provides the incentive for everyone to fight for what is theirs, on their own, or as a collective protecting the collective interests of their property.

    This knowledge, that even if the military (or militaries including the reserves) could be breached as was the case at Pearl Harbour, when the occuping forces were to land and attempt that occupation they would be met with so terrible an onslaught that they will think twice about the invasion as practical (as the Japanese actually did). They could have practically sailed up the Mississippi River and split the country into two, but if the attempted to land anywhere there would have been opposition from behind every tree and blade of grass that could have concealled anyone or anything as did happen the last time that we were actually invaded by foreign troops.

  • Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    No, they're not doing it yet, but the socialists would like to. I believe that they'll start with free speech, as they're already doing in England and many other countries. Take away the freedom of speech and then you can take away just about everything else.

    That Russian general that predicted that the US would break up into separate countries isn't looking so stupid now. The Texas Governor said today that Texas might resist universal health care under the 10th Amendment. Could secession be next? It doesn't sound so crazy anymore. I'd be in favor of letting the socialists have the west coast and northeast and the capitalists could have the rest.

    Mike

  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by MikeOH:


    No, they're not doing it yet, but the socialists would like to. I believe that they'll start with free speech, as they're already doing in England and many other countries. Take away the freedom of speech and then you can take away just about everything else.

    That Russian general that predicted that the US would break up into separate countries isn't looking so stupid now. The Texas Governor said today that Texas might resist universal health care under the 10th Amendment. Could secession be next? It doesn't sound so crazy anymore. I'd be in favor of letting the socialists have the west coast and northeast and the capitalists could have the rest.

    Mike


    Mike, what is that about attacking the "Socialists" all the time. Is there anything more socialistic then the Section 8 program? And don't you enjoy that program? You cannot have it both ways.
    (Oh no,I just hijacked the thread again....
    :crazed: )
  • Real Estate Investor · Member since 2008 · 340 posts · 34 votes
    17y

    I have noticed throughout this thread that others are using other countries as examples to prove a point. But be careful. Most of the counties that have been mentioned are social democracies, or democracies using the parliamentary system.

    America is truly unique, in that it is a Republic that was born out of the ashes of a revolution against tyranny. True Republics are rare in the history of the world. Because they contain strong executive branches, they lend themselves to evolving into dictatorships.

    The founding fathers knew this. They assumed that at some point the people would have to turn against a federalist government if it became too powerful and tyrannical. Hence, why gun ownership is at the core of this country’s founding.

    Guns, muskets and cannons gave us our freedom and they protect our freedom against enemies foreign and domestic.

  • Real Estate Investor · ten mile, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 374 votes
    17y

    Please, any one of you that think any different than those arms as a deterrant, ask those countries as you may wish to invade us and watch us in action!!!!!!!!

    Heck, that might even solve some of our current political problems.

  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Matthew Gil:


    America is truly unique, in that it is a Republic that was born out of the ashes of a revolution against tyranny. True Republics are rare in the history of the world. Because they contain strong executive branches, they lend themselves to evolving into dictatorships.

    The founding fathers knew this. They assumed that at some point the people would have to turn against a federalist government if it became too powerful and tyrannical. Hence, why gun ownership is at the core of this country’s founding.

    Guns, muskets and cannons gave us our freedom and they protect our freedom against enemies foreign and domestic.


    Matthew, That was not what made America unique. The independence war was no different than any revolution. The difference is that it wasn't against American tyranny but an English one. The uniqueness of America is that it is not one state. It is a union of many states and founding fathers' intent was to preserve the sovereignty of each state. That is why many libertarians believe that the federal government lost its original and only role. To defend the union from foreign attack, everything else should have left to the state.
  • Real Estate Investor · ten mile, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 374 votes
    17y

    Sorry Eddie, but if you take that view,then America is not unique at all as there have been several "association" of states including the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the union of the twelve brothers of Israel.

    What is different is that it was formed as a Republic and not a democracy.

  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by jawsette:
    Sorry Eddie, but if you take that view,then America is not unique at all as there have been several "association" of states including the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the union of the twelve brothers of Israel.

    What is different is that it was formed as a Republic and not a democracy.

    On the other hand, Jawsette, Republic is not a unique form of government either. From the People's republic of China, to more democratic one The republic of Austria. And by the way, the people of Israel was a consortium of twelve tribes who, according to the old testament were the ancestors of those 12 brothers.
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