HEALTH CARE LAW UPHELD
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
It's law, the Supreme Court held that the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) is valied under the taxing authority.
Yes, I know healthcare is one word....
However, states can opt out with the Medicaid portion. Now what?
I am 100% AGAINST the government requiring the people to purchase healthcare or face a penalty. I am also against the federal government forcing the states to provide healthcare for those that aren't covered by private insurance.
America became the great nation we were because of the free enterprise system. We are now on a course of becoming a socialist country. The working class will be taxed more and more to cover those that do not want to work, and provide for themselves. The government run healthcare system will be like every other government program, overpriced and impossible to access.
We are already paying billions of dollars in California in medical expenses for released convicts (because we can't afford to keep them in prison and 40,000 were released), sexual predators, drug addicts, alcoholics, etc. Why should the working taxpayers be required to pay more to cover those that choose not to work?
It's not even the direct penalties, etc. for the working class should they opt out of insurance. The entire system needs reformed. The liberals have expanded disability, healthcare, etc. to such extremes, that soon there will be no business left in California to create the tax base necessary to suport it. You can only tax people and business so much, and when there's more taking than giving, the country collapses, and we become Greece!
I'll stand for a free country, with personal choice, and a free enterprise system, and forego Big Brother thank you.
I have to agree with Alan, Health Care should NOT be a right, it is a service like any other service. Doctors, Nurses, and other Health Care Professionals did not go to college for all that time to become "civil servants." They chose to study to work in the PRIVATE SECTOR.
It is actually very simple, the MORE a government GIVES, the MORE they can TAKE AWAY. I heard it said once, "Democracy will CEASE to exist when people can vote themselves cash and benefits" No longer are people elected for their ability to LEAD, they are elected for their willingness to be Santa Claus.
I agree, kind of.
The funny thing is, I don't believe, necessarily, that there is a "right" to healthcare. I do believe that regulation needs to be put in place to reduce the bleeding, better quantify the losses and hold everyone accountable for their coexistence.
Do you feel the same way about government backed student loans, GI Bill, education grants, mortgage interest deductions, federal highway project funding, government sponsored medical studies, clean water laws, parks and national forests?
If a government can take more away because it has given more away, well, I guess we are back to where we started where the government didn't give us anything.
I agree with a lot that you have to say Mike. I think we have a problem with self interested pandering politicians. Funny thing is, Obama was not pandering with this bill. It is very unpopular and I think most people, including his constituents, were quite surprised that he suddenly brought this up and pushed it through when he did. Now when he publicly supports gay marriage and enacts the worker permit policy for immigration, whether you agree with him on those issues or not, I believe those acts were election year pandering. Otherwise why not have done them 3 years ago?
If healthcare is a right, then doesn't that mean that someone else must be forced to deliver that healthcare?
Apples and oranges.
As for Obamacare, you have to see it for what it is, and the political motivation behind it.
Free medical care seems to be a right of ever congressman/woman and there are plenty of volunteers ready to treat them who act in the free market system, getting paid to do so.
So it seems it's a right or a government obligation for some, but not others, is that the argument?
I heard someone today say, the real problem with Obammacare is the Obamma part, everyting else was practically invented by conservatives years ago.
GI Bill? Those are benefits to people who served our country as military personnel. Absolutely, it is part of their pay/benefits.
Education Grants? Why not just says all grants in general? I worked for 4 years as a Finance Director for a Non Profit and am very familiar with the Federal Grants Programs. I worked with DHHS, FTA, BIA, WIA and more. Programs such as Head Start, Substance Abuse Recovery, Public Transit, Worker ReTraining, and more. Most grant recipients are a complete sham. Studies show that by the second grade, a Head Start student is no more further ahead than a non Head Start student. Government substance abuse programs have a 90% failure rate (the person goes back to abusing drugs). I could go on, but the government has no business playing Santa Claus.
Mortgage Interest Deduction. With the current tax structure, I am all for it. If we would go to either a flat tax or a National Sales Tax, get rid of it. The Mortgage Interest Deduction is needed to counter the fact that the government takes more money from people who work harder and/or smarter. I don't see why the government thinks it is ok to take a higher percentage from those that make more money? Is it simply because they have more money? If so, that is about as immoral as it gets.
Federal Highway Project Funding? The Constitution gives the Feds control of interstate commerce, which includes highways, airports, rail lines, sea ports, pipelines and more. Of course the Government is in charge of that.
I won't go into the rest of the items, but the amount of waste that I see in the Government at all levels just astounds me. If any private business ran itself like the Government, they would be in bankruptcy in no time.
Have you ever heard of Public Housing, aka The Projects? That is what Obamacare will turn the US Health Care Industry into.
I am a very strong believer in the Private Sector with the government's role being ONLY to be the referee or umpire. Right now, the government acts like the Umpire, the Team Owner, the Players Union President, the Front Office and the Players Agent. We, as the actual players, have no idea what is going on.
Apples and oranges.
As for Obamacare, you have to see it for what it is, and the political motivation behind it.
Not apples and oranges. Simply other roles in which government is involved in areas beyond our "rights" that don't have nearly the flaming opposition as the current bill being discussed.
Mike M, I believe all these items are related that I bring up. They all have to do with things government doesn't need to be involved in, yet they are and we all benefit from it. I totally agree that government spending is wasteful in a lot of area - but that is not an argument against the fundamental need to hold everyone accountable for the health care system that they will indefinitely use. And as for the other items, clean water, parks and national forests, why not go into those? Anyway, I do understand where you come from and I don't think it is unreasonable. In fact, I love Ron Paul's book revolution. But I just don't think the utopian take on things is realistic.
How do you feel about child support? Should that be a government enforced action? I pay it and resent the hell out of it. But I do understand that it is, in most cases, a good policy. So, even though the affect it has on my finances are woeful and I and along with many others end up paying way more than the actual costs, I still acknowledge that society is probably better off for the policy. A prime example of where "government should keep its nose to itself" but didn't because the vast majority of those in society can't be trusted to do the right thing motivated by the private market. Because utopia does not exist and our needs extend beyond the scope of an economic assessment like "private market" and "capitalism".
And BTW, federal highway funding reaches beyond interstate highways. It is (and this here is actually a feather for the opposition's cap) part of how the fed will coerce states to comply with there wishes - funding of state road projects. Nonetheless, local roads are better for it.
Mike, saying that OC will be the same as public housing is a stretch, an opinion, the're no more alike than the GI Bill and OC, and the GI Bill was met with the same heated debate as the healthcare issue as being a social program, now it's widely accepted as a benefit. The same will likely happen to healthcare over time, as people get to know the new systems and see that doctors and hospitals aren't going broke.
Government is not really efficient either.
And then there is Medicare, if you're not on it seems you soon will be. Are you willing to try and stay off of it, buy your own coverage or pay your own way? Would you refuse your social security benefits?
Funny to me how people seem to agree to accept government assistance, help, benefits, tax advanages and credits or coverage when it's to them, but it's not right when it's for others.
I wanted to touch on this, too. In a truly free market, we would just pay soldiers more rather than offer this benefit. Thankfully, our elected representatives had the foresight at the time to recognize that an educated public would do more for our society in the future than some private market Benjamen's in the pocket would right now (right now as in back then).
As for the government shouldn't be in the business of insuring loans...Why not? Home ownership, despite current issues is one of the great catalysts of our economy and, ultimately, world standing.
Did you know that Obama is responsible for making direct student loans from the government now rather than student loans being insured? That's right.
Now I can't draw a straight line to how these policies protect my rights to the pursuit of happiness, but I have a pretty big hunch that I can be much happier in a highly educated economic powerhouse than, say, Honduras where they turn you around at the door if you are sick but don't have any money.
You can reply with simply "unrelated" or "apples and oranges" but that will not be true. It is all interrelated and connected. Buzz words and catch phrases are simply not sufficient for policy required to run this large and complex country.
Bill
I paid INTO Social Security and Medicare, why shouldn't I reap the benefit? If I had never paid into Social Security and Medicare, then I would not expect to draw from it. Then again, I was FORCED to pay into them. In my mind, being FORCED and being FREE just do not seem to mix very well.
We will just have to wait and see since it is now law, and the Supreme Court is now allowed to levy taxes on us. But I believe that 10 years from now, the United States will look back at the passing of Obamacare and ask "What were we thinking?" The quality of US Health Care will drop dramatically.
And then there is Medicare, if you're not on it seems you soon will be. Are you willing to try and stay off of it, buy your own coverage or pay your own way? Would you refuse your social security benefits?
Funny to me how people seem to agree to accept government assistance, help, benefits, tax advanages and credits or coverage when it's to them, but it's not right when it's for others.
I won't be. It's my understanding that in order to receive SS, you have to simultaneously enroll in Medicare. Not doing so makes you ineligible for SS benefits. I want no part of either program despite my paying taxes into it since I was a teenager. Then again, I'm far from retirement so neither program may be around by the time I'm eligible. Once can hope.
Did you guys know you are not legally required to have a SSN? Of course, most people were assigned it while still being breast fed.
Some people have sucessfully gone to court to be disenrolled on the grounds they were involuntarily enrolled in the first place. Also, some have sued and won against banks and employers who have refused to open accounts for them, or hire them because they have no SSN.
If you have no SSN, they can't deduct FICA from your pay check.
It is a myth that you are legally required to have a SSN. Of course, without a SSN you can't join the military, work for the government or collect government benefits.
Can you imagine what would happen if parents of newborns started not getting SSN for them?
In case you are wondering about my claim above:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2682567/Social-Security-Number-Not-Required
Some people have sucessfully gone to court to be disenrolled on the grounds they were involuntarily enrolled in the first place. Also, some have sued and won against banks and employers who have refused to open accounts for them, or hire them because they have no SSN.
If you have no SSN, they can't deduct FICA from your pay check.
It is a myth that you are legally required to have a SSN. Of course, without a SSN you can't join the military, work for the government or collect government benefits.
Can you imagine what would happen if parents of newborns started not getting SSN for them?
I knew this. But who in their right mind not get a SS number for their children? I guess that would be the true litmus test of whether or not you were pure free market or not. Although there would definitely be bias against you for not having the SS number.
Geeez Tom, why not just renounce your citizenship?
No SSN? You'll need a pot full of money since you won't be working and if you do and don't pay you'll end up with free room and board.
No bank accounts, probably no driver's license, no ID that could be a problem.....that's just way off topic.....
Has anyone seen anything at all about how OC would be replaced? Any specific plan or modifications to the existing plan?
Later on, I'll be loading up on Medicare supplement policies I guess to ensure my estate is not gouged ten or fifteen years from now...hmmm, maybe 20 or 25, LOL
For those of you who hate cliches, here is one for you, "Government is NOT the solution, it is the PROBLEM". There are numerous books written on the subject so I will not enumerate on it here.
Have any of you ever wondered why the government waits until a problem is extremely large before addressing it? Imagine how WW2 would have turned out if the US jumped in as soon as Germany invaded Poland? Instead, we allowed Germany to take over Western Europe.
Regarding US Health Care, there are some very serious issues that need to be addressed. I have a very unique inside view of US Health Care, probably more than anyone else on BP. The amount of fraud and abuse in medicare and medicaid amounts to hundreds of billions of dollars annually. Why? Inefficiencies, lack of oversight and weak management. Did OC address the real problems? You decide.
Bill your showing your ignorance. The courts have already ruled being denied a job simply because you don't have a SSN is discriminatory and illegal. In fact, the link I posted is a handbook for employers on how to process unenumerated employees.
No SSN, no ID? You are brainwashed. Wait, my Drivers license. Look, no SSN. Don't worry Bill, got it covered. :-)
Also, banks can't stop you from openning an account simply because you don't have a SSN. Again, been tried in courts, the banks lose.
Who said anything about a drivers licence. You don't need a SSN to get a drivers license.
So you are equating "citizenship" with having a SSN? That's odd and slightly orwellian. Denounce citizenship? Funny you should mention that as a couple of well known and exceedingly rich liberals just did that. No, my citizenship is intact, and I am retired military. And yes, I couldn't have enlisted in the first place without a SSN.
It's not that off topic. These big government programs all require a SSN. SS is voluntary. Being robbed every two weeks via FICA withholding, is voluntary. If you don't have a SSN, politicians and bureaucrat pencil necks wet themselves. That alone is reason enough to do it.
Oh, one last thing. If OC doesn't get repealed and we have to live with it, the IRS will be enforcing it. If you don't have a SSN, how will they enforce that with people who don't have a SSN?
It's simple:
THERE IS NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT TO HAVE A SSN. NO SSN, YOU WAIVE RIGHT TO GOV CERTAIN GOV BENEFITS. PARTICIPATION IS BIG GOV PROGRAMS (including Obamacare) IS THEREFORE, DE FACTO VOLUNTARY.
Thomas Cullen,
You don't need a SS number, but you do need some sort of ID number. This number takes the place of the SS number and could be what a resident uses or someone on a worker permit or visa uses. I know people with these numbers (each scenario, actually) and the employers still withholds all taxes and FICA. You could not get a DL or fill out a college application or any other paperwork necessitated function without a government granted ID number of some sort to substitute the SS number.
I don't know if the employers are supposed ot withhold FICA or not, but they do in these cases that I know of.
In fact, my wife was a resident when I met her (no she did not qualify for citizenship by marrying me, but she did eventually get her citizenship). The only difference between resident and citizen is the possiblity of deportation (unlikely except for committing serious crimes) and no voting rights. Otherwise, social security, medicade, ect are all the same.
I'd be interested in hearing from someone who does not have a SS that works for an employer who withholds taxes that does not also have FICA withheld. Those that I know have had it withheld.
And no, employers can't refuse to hire you without a SS number. Try proving that's the reason they didn't hire you....
You seem to be very...pro - no SS number. Have you put in your application to rescind? If not, why?
Brian,
A U.S. is NOT legally required to have a SSN. That is a big myth. It is also a myth that U.S. citizens (who do NOT work for the Fed or State goverment, including military and National Guard) are legally required to pariticipate in SS.
A U.S. employer operating within the US and territorites are NOT legally required to withhold FICA of such employees who do not have a SSN, and have chosen NOT to participate. All they are legally requied to do is get the employee to sign a waiver which informs the employee of the benefit he/she are subject to lose.
U.S. citizens can write a letter to their local SSA office, and turn in their original SS card and rqst their existing SSN be recinded. It's been done. People just don't know. They are "gulleyble". :-)
I am not a fan of SS or any other ponzi scheme. It has turned into just another method in which the government can obscond with our money, spend it, ibuy votes, and increase the debt hanging over our heads, and that of our decedants. Now that is another topic!
If a young person with an existing SSN chooses to recind their account, there are certain ramifications:
1. Can't work for the government of military.
2. Can't collect benefits.
3. Can't have FICA taxes withheld
4. Will have to educate employers, banks, CC companies...etc.
5. Be accused of being unpatriotic and denouncing their citizenship. Which incidently, is a birth right, and not the result of gulleybly signing up for some government program.
Lol,
A doctor gives free medical advice and it's shot down by two of the usual suspects because it disagrees with their politics. Glad to see I've missed nothing new on Bigger Pockets. It comes to this folks. Who are you going to listen to on healthcare? A doctor, a software engineer, or a realtor?
Really? Medical advice? More like policy opinions. I'm a civil engineer. Does my opinion on anything related to transportation trump any non civil engineer? My company pays a bean counter to keep track of the money, not an engineer. Is that a mistake? Are bus drivers the most qualified to do mechanical repairs to buses?
Obvisoly there are some real coooooks on here, I just sugest you live in reality, toss your ssn and don't use it, see how life goes while you argue such points from the bank to your employer, good luck with that, where does you employer send the FICA or anything they are required to hold,,,,,I know, you're different, you have rights......LMAO! Good luck!
Back to healthcare....
Umm.... Yes it does. LOL That's kind of the point of an engineering license isn't it?
Don't toss your credentials under the bus just to sustain your politics. Your politics aren't worth that cost.
Go BLIMEY, I've seen a ghost! From Indiana!!
Healthcare people........!