Subject to paperwork
Specialist · UT · Member since 2018 · 35 posts · 12 votes
Subject to paperwork
Most Popular Reply
Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votesQuote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
@Jay Hinrichs Regardless of what this TC's website says in the disclaimers, the pricing menu arguably reflects the unauthorized practice of law in several places. And yes there is post closing and servicing included plus loan doc prep, etc. I would think some fine tuning of the content is warranted... not trying to be a wet blanket here but just wow.
I get the impression that as @Jay Hinrichs says, having a TC under an active agent is both a good thing and is also under supervision of the agent/broker. That part I'm familiar with.
What is confusing to me, is that on a Subject To you rarely have an agent involved.
This TC seems to be implying they are independent, like maybe a notary.
They make sure that the paperwork is completed properly before going to escrow. Or, in some cases they take care of the paperwork (explaining things to sellers, getting signatures, closing outside of escrow) to free up the investor to look for more deals.
I think a lot of these deals are done without title reports, from what I've seen elsewhere. So the TC acts as the one to convince the seller that it's okay to sell using Subto, and act as the escrow agent. I mean it's so simple, right, talk with the seller to get them to sign a Docusign, it's just a few signatures, no money changing hands, what could go wrong.
Ken think of it as a loan processor that works for a mortgage company.. the processor cant quote rates or do the work of the RMLO but they do all the paper work behind the scenes thats what a good TC in the real estate brokerage does.. its quite legal and very much needed by top producing agents like my wife. TC maybe license or they may not be.. they are independent contractors so no they are NOT under the supervision of an agent.. Just like a loan processor TC have no real direct contact with any clients just with the agent they are supporting.. Its super common even agents that are not top producers use them as the brokerages encourage it.
37 Replies
- Real Estate Agent · Kailua-Kona, HI · Member since 2022 · 61 posts · 15 votes2y
Our team can help you with paperwork in Subto.
We have a team of Transaction Coordinators at Finish Line TC Services that specialize in creative financing through Paceʻs mentorship. We are here to answer any questions you may have on our services and how we can provide value to you and your business as TCʻs. We handle all 50 states plus Puerto Rico. Feel free to book a consult!
- Real Estate Agent · Kailua-Kona, HI · Member since 2022 · 61 posts · 15 votes2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quick question, if the Subto falls apart and the student gets sued, are you as the TC going to protect the interests of the student when they get sued?Quote from @Shenell Caldeira:
Our team can help you with paperwork in Subto.
We have a team of Transaction Coordinators at Finish Line TC Services that specialize in creative financing through Paceʻs mentorship. We are here to answer any questions you may have on our services and how we can provide value to you and your business as TCʻs. We handle all 50 states plus Puerto Rico. Feel free to book a consult!
Deal has already been negotiated between the Seller and Buyer, all docs are signed before I get it. We provide a "service". As a TC we are processing the paperwork and being the liaison between the Seller, Buyers, and escrow. Itʻs no different than any real estate transaction.
- Real Estate Agent · Kailua-Kona, HI · Member since 2022 · 61 posts · 15 votes2y
Some people donʻt like to deal with the paperwork, they rather concentrate on obtaining more deals, getting to contract thatʻs their focus. Some investors want to build a team to scale and TC work is one of those areas where we partner with them.
Yes I do have E&O insurance.
They are not in escrow yet, thatʻs where we come in. Cost varies on the type of deals, we are assisting the deal until COE.
- 2yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@Account Closed Sounds like providing brokerage services to me.
There are third party note servicing companies that specialize in this. They have account setup fees, monthly fees, ACH fees, etc. so it's not cheap but also not as suspect as this very vague arrangement.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes2yYour website says you offer "Subto Insurance". How does this work exactly? Thanks!
Quote from @Shenell Caldeira:
Our team can help you with paperwork in Subto.
We have a team of Transaction Coordinators at Finish Line TC Services that specialize in creative financing through Paceʻs mentorship. We are here to answer any questions you may have on our services and how we can provide value to you and your business as TCʻs. We handle all 50 states plus Puerto Rico. Feel free to book a consult!
- 2yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
@Account Closed Sounds like providing brokerage services to me.
There are third party note servicing companies that specialize in this. They have account setup fees, monthly fees, ACH fees, etc. so it's not cheap but also not as suspect as this very vague arrangement.
I think we are confusing what a TC is on the west coast.. My wife has a TC and so do all top end high producing agents.. TCs manage the literal paper file.. they follow all the dates and make sure the agent is in compliance ( agents dont get paid if their paper work is not perfect in our area LOL) the TC is just an assistant who specializes in handling real estate paper work.. I suspect in a sub too transaction they will assist the buyer with what is necessary to close those transactions ( as long as they know what is required or needed). TC s if not licensed cannot act as agents but most TC's are agents who tired of selling and are real good at coordinating the paper work.. this includes making sure all the disclosures are signed and dated properly etc etc.. My wife writes the contract then hands it over to her TC who then pings her on follows ups.. Like inspections were due this date mortgage contingency is due this date.. When top agents have 10 to 20 files go at any one time a TC is worth their weight in gold.. My wife pays 400.00 per file and its worth every penny.
So I would assume this Agent in Hawaii has learned how to do sub too which is not all that complicated and will assist buyers and how to do things so they dont get messed up .. Its a valuable service as long as they know what they are doing and talking about of course. - 2yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
@Account Closed Sounds like providing brokerage services to me.
There are third party note servicing companies that specialize in this. They have account setup fees, monthly fees, ACH fees, etc. so it's not cheap but also not as suspect as this very vague arrangement.
Hmmm, interesting. I guess I need to get out more.
Thanks @Tom Gimer:I took it that their responsibility was to get the transaction completed, then they are out of the transaction, I hadn't considered they were receiving and forwarding checks on a monthly basis until the underlying note gets paid off.
There are only a few problems with going that route for creative finance.
1. there are few, willing "Servicers", to take that liability. 2. When the loan changes hands, the "servicing company" loses track and fails to contact you in time to resolve the issue which means the seller starts getting "lates" on their credit and the seller is not going to be happy about that 3. Some servicers actually do go out of business and checks stop getting forwarded. You won't know until your very angry seller calls in a rage that he is in foreclosure.
There are other reasons, when escrow amounts change, when the seller files bankruptcy, when the seller calls the bank to get their name off of the loan. You know, the usual Subto problems that no one will talk about.
In my opinion, Subto is not a "close the deal and forget the seller" transaction, the way a property bought off the MLS using bank financing may be. The buyer needs to know the status and the sentiment of the seller at all times. Things can change quickly.
PS a TC does not handle the transaction post close .. they just get the transaction to close it will be up to the buyer in a sub to deal to monitor the first in all aspects payments insurance escrows etc . the TC is NOT providing servicing functions.. in all sub to s I have done we of course service our own and I have about 200 of them I have done and my dad back in the 80s did over 1000 of them.. Although on the resell he did mainly AITD great CA debt instrument. really protects the sellers much more than a straight sub too.. I would never ever recommend a seller do a straight sub too. - 2yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Steve K.:
Your website says you offer "Subto Insurance". How does this work exactly? Thanks!Quote from @Shenell Caldeira:
Our team can help you with paperwork in Subto.
We have a team of Transaction Coordinators at Finish Line TC Services that specialize in creative financing through Paceʻs mentorship. We are here to answer any questions you may have on our services and how we can provide value to you and your business as TCʻs. We handle all 50 states plus Puerto Rico. Feel free to book a consult!
its does not exist in the strict insurance world there is no such thing. As an insurance policy for this transaction. - 2yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@Jay Hinrichs Regardless of what this TC's website says in the disclaimers, the pricing menu arguably reflects the unauthorized practice of law in several places. And yes there is post closing and servicing included plus loan doc prep, etc. I would think some fine tuning of the content is warranted... not trying to be a wet blanket here but just wow.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - 2yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
@Jay Hinrichs Regardless of what this TC's website says in the disclaimers, the pricing menu arguably reflects the unauthorized practice of law in several places. And yes there is post closing and servicing included plus loan doc prep, etc. I would think some fine tuning of the content is warranted... not trying to be a wet blanket here but just wow.
I did not look at their website.. I was just commenting on what a TC is here in our market.. Additionally I have recommended those wishing to earn money to get started investing a TC business can be a good gig.. Of course they cant act as an agent or practice law etc. I think there is a lot of cowboy stuff being bandied about on the Morby websites and between his members.
- Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
@Account Closed Sounds like providing brokerage services to me.
There are third party note servicing companies that specialize in this. They have account setup fees, monthly fees, ACH fees, etc. so it's not cheap but also not as suspect as this very vague arrangement.
Hmmm, interesting. I guess I need to get out more.
Thanks @Tom Gimer:I took it that their responsibility was to get the transaction completed, then they are out of the transaction, I hadn't considered they were receiving and forwarding checks on a monthly basis until the underlying note gets paid off.
There are only a few problems with going that route for creative finance.
1. there are few, willing "Servicers", to take that liability. 2. When the loan changes hands, the "servicing company" loses track and fails to contact you in time to resolve the issue which means the seller starts getting "lates" on their credit and the seller is not going to be happy about that 3. Some servicers actually do go out of business and checks stop getting forwarded. You won't know until your very angry seller calls in a rage that he is in foreclosure.
There are other reasons, when escrow amounts change, when the seller files bankruptcy, when the seller calls the bank to get their name off of the loan. You know, the usual Subto problems that no one will talk about.
In my opinion, Subto is not a "close the deal and forget the seller" transaction, the way a property bought off the MLS using bank financing may be. The buyer needs to know the status and the sentiment of the seller at all times. Things can change quickly.
I use a TC on my transactions of course and they can send contracts out and chase sigs for me etc. but they're careful not to write in additional provisions or cross over into doing an agents job. For a TC to claim that their E&O insurance would cover everything in a subto transaction or to act as a loan servicer post closing, or to provide "subto insurance" seems a little off to me.
I was curious about the subto insurance because there’s a tab for it on the website but it seems like it just goes to a normal landlord insurance company. This may be a case like when Pace commented on here a few months ago about what to do when a loan is called but then ghosted our follow-up questions because his comment didn’t make any sense…
- 2yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
@Jay Hinrichs Regardless of what this TC's website says in the disclaimers, the pricing menu arguably reflects the unauthorized practice of law in several places. And yes there is post closing and servicing included plus loan doc prep, etc. I would think some fine tuning of the content is warranted... not trying to be a wet blanket here but just wow.
I get the impression that as @Jay Hinrichs says, having a TC under an active agent is both a good thing and is also under supervision of the agent/broker. That part I'm familiar with.
What is confusing to me, is that on a Subject To you rarely have an agent involved.
This TC seems to be implying they are independent, like maybe a notary.
They make sure that the paperwork is completed properly before going to escrow. Or, in some cases they take care of the paperwork (explaining things to sellers, getting signatures, closing outside of escrow) to free up the investor to look for more deals.
I think a lot of these deals are done without title reports, from what I've seen elsewhere. So the TC acts as the one to convince the seller that it's okay to sell using Subto, and act as the escrow agent. I mean it's so simple, right, talk with the seller to get them to sign a Docusign, it's just a few signatures, no money changing hands, what could go wrong.
Ken think of it as a loan processor that works for a mortgage company.. the processor cant quote rates or do the work of the RMLO but they do all the paper work behind the scenes thats what a good TC in the real estate brokerage does.. its quite legal and very much needed by top producing agents like my wife. TC maybe license or they may not be.. they are independent contractors so no they are NOT under the supervision of an agent.. Just like a loan processor TC have no real direct contact with any clients just with the agent they are supporting.. Its super common even agents that are not top producers use them as the brokerages encourage it. - Real Estate Agent · Kailua-Kona, HI · Member since 2022 · 61 posts · 15 votes2y
Quote from @Steve K.:
Your website says you offer "Subto Insurance". How does this work exactly? Thanks!Quote from @Shenell Caldeira:
Our team can help you with paperwork in Subto.
We have a team of Transaction Coordinators at Finish Line TC Services that specialize in creative financing through Paceʻs mentorship. We are here to answer any questions you may have on our services and how we can provide value to you and your business as TCʻs. We handle all 50 states plus Puerto Rico. Feel free to book a consult!
Our company works with an affiliate at Steadily who does the insurance. When you do purchase Subto, you have to eventually obtain your own insurance.
- Real Estate Agent · Kailua-Kona, HI · Member since 2022 · 61 posts · 15 votes2yHi, I never said or claimed that my E&O would cover Subto Insurance, like a mobile notary, the company I work with they just require us to have it as would a realtor or a life and health agent. Just like a regular TC we donʻt make any provisions or cross over anything either. We work with an affiliate that assists owners that purchase through Subto for insurance. If you have FB, there is a free group that Pace created, Pace does talk about due on sale clause and does speak of his experience and other students will as well. If you want to know more, our team would be happy to get on a consultation.
Quote from @Steve K.:
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
@Account Closed Sounds like providing brokerage services to me.
There are third party note servicing companies that specialize in this. They have account setup fees, monthly fees, ACH fees, etc. so it's not cheap but also not as suspect as this very vague arrangement.
Hmmm, interesting. I guess I need to get out more.
Thanks @Tom Gimer:I took it that their responsibility was to get the transaction completed, then they are out of the transaction, I hadn't considered they were receiving and forwarding checks on a monthly basis until the underlying note gets paid off.
There are only a few problems with going that route for creative finance.
1. there are few, willing "Servicers", to take that liability. 2. When the loan changes hands, the "servicing company" loses track and fails to contact you in time to resolve the issue which means the seller starts getting "lates" on their credit and the seller is not going to be happy about that 3. Some servicers actually do go out of business and checks stop getting forwarded. You won't know until your very angry seller calls in a rage that he is in foreclosure.
There are other reasons, when escrow amounts change, when the seller files bankruptcy, when the seller calls the bank to get their name off of the loan. You know, the usual Subto problems that no one will talk about.
In my opinion, Subto is not a "close the deal and forget the seller" transaction, the way a property bought off the MLS using bank financing may be. The buyer needs to know the status and the sentiment of the seller at all times. Things can change quickly.
I use a TC on my transactions of course and they can send contracts out and chase sigs for me etc. but they're careful not to write in additional provisions or cross over into doing an agents job. For a TC to claim that their E&O insurance would cover everything in a subto transaction or to act as a loan servicer post closing, or to provide "subto insurance" seems a little off to me.
I was curious about the subto insurance because there’s a tab for it on the website but it seems like it just goes to a normal landlord insurance company. This may be a case like when Pace commented on here a few months ago about what to do when a loan is called but then ghosted our follow-up questions because his comment didn’t make any sense…
- Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes2y
Quote from @Shenell Caldeira:
Quote from @Steve K.:
Your website says you offer "Subto Insurance". How does this work exactly? Thanks!Quote from @Shenell Caldeira:
Our team can help you with paperwork in Subto.
We have a team of Transaction Coordinators at Finish Line TC Services that specialize in creative financing through Paceʻs mentorship. We are here to answer any questions you may have on our services and how we can provide value to you and your business as TCʻs. We handle all 50 states plus Puerto Rico. Feel free to book a consult!
Our company works with an affiliate at Steadily who does the insurance. When you do purchase Subto, you have to eventually obtain your own insurance.
The link says "Get Subto Insurance", but then leads to Steadily who provides what looks to be just standard landlord insurance "coverage for fires, windstorms, water leaks, vandalism and more". I'm asking because Pace mentioned in the podcast that he offers subto insurance through one of his companies, but the closest thing we've been able to find is "assurance", which helps people figure out what to do when the loan is called for a fee (with no guarantees), but isn't actually insurance. Is what your affiliate offers actually "Subto Insurance"?
- Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes2y
Quote from @Shenell Caldeira:
Hi, I never said or claimed that my E&O would cover Subto Insurance, like a mobile notary, the company I work with they just require us to have it as would a realtor or a life and health agent. Just like a regular TC we donʻt make any provisions or cross over anything either. We work with an affiliate that assists owners that purchase through Subto for insurance. If you have FB, there is a free group that Pace created, Pace does talk about due on sale clause and does speak of his experience and other students will as well. If you want to know more, our team would be happy to get on a consultation.Quote from @Steve K.:
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
@Account Closed Sounds like providing brokerage services to me.
There are third party note servicing companies that specialize in this. They have account setup fees, monthly fees, ACH fees, etc. so it's not cheap but also not as suspect as this very vague arrangement.
Hmmm, interesting. I guess I need to get out more.
Thanks @Tom Gimer:I took it that their responsibility was to get the transaction completed, then they are out of the transaction, I hadn't considered they were receiving and forwarding checks on a monthly basis until the underlying note gets paid off.
There are only a few problems with going that route for creative finance.
1. there are few, willing "Servicers", to take that liability. 2. When the loan changes hands, the "servicing company" loses track and fails to contact you in time to resolve the issue which means the seller starts getting "lates" on their credit and the seller is not going to be happy about that 3. Some servicers actually do go out of business and checks stop getting forwarded. You won't know until your very angry seller calls in a rage that he is in foreclosure.
There are other reasons, when escrow amounts change, when the seller files bankruptcy, when the seller calls the bank to get their name off of the loan. You know, the usual Subto problems that no one will talk about.
In my opinion, Subto is not a "close the deal and forget the seller" transaction, the way a property bought off the MLS using bank financing may be. The buyer needs to know the status and the sentiment of the seller at all times. Things can change quickly.
I use a TC on my transactions of course and they can send contracts out and chase sigs for me etc. but they're careful not to write in additional provisions or cross over into doing an agents job. For a TC to claim that their E&O insurance would cover everything in a subto transaction or to act as a loan servicer post closing, or to provide "subto insurance" seems a little off to me.
I was curious about the subto insurance because there’s a tab for it on the website but it seems like it just goes to a normal landlord insurance company. This may be a case like when Pace commented on here a few months ago about what to do when a loan is called but then ghosted our follow-up questions because his comment didn’t make any sense…
Regarding how to avoid due on sale: Pace tried to explain it on here a few months go on a thread that I started: https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/921/topics/1139443-due-... but his answer was incorrect, and when several of us pointed that out and asked follow-up questions, he stopped replying. My understanding is anyone who asks hard questions on the facebook group get's politely escorted out of the group... I don't have a dog in the fight, I never use subto as a strategy personally, nor am I against it. I just thought it was odd, and all the posts from subto members on here saying weird stuff is also odd. Something is just off about it IMO.
- Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
@Jay Hinrichs Regardless of what this TC's website says in the disclaimers, the pricing menu arguably reflects the unauthorized practice of law in several places. And yes there is post closing and servicing included plus loan doc prep, etc. I would think some fine tuning of the content is warranted... not trying to be a wet blanket here but just wow.
I get the impression that as @Jay Hinrichs says, having a TC under an active agent is both a good thing and is also under supervision of the agent/broker. That part I'm familiar with.
What is confusing to me, is that on a Subject To you rarely have an agent involved.
This TC seems to be implying they are independent, like maybe a notary.
They make sure that the paperwork is completed properly before going to escrow. Or, in some cases they take care of the paperwork (explaining things to sellers, getting signatures, closing outside of escrow) to free up the investor to look for more deals.
I think a lot of these deals are done without title reports, from what I've seen elsewhere. So the TC acts as the one to convince the seller that it's okay to sell using Subto, and act as the escrow agent. I mean it's so simple, right, talk with the seller to get them to sign a Docusign, it's just a few signatures, no money changing hands, what could go wrong.Ken, some TC's work freelance, not in-house for a brokerage so anyone can hire them to push paperwork on a transaction. Some states require TC's to be licensed and it's obviously a good idea for them to carry E&O insurance whether it's required or not, because as you know anyone involved in a transaction can be sued if things go sideways, whether they did anything wrong or not. Would E&O actually cover a subto transaction? I don't know, maybe you do, from reading your comments I know you have much more experience in these matters than I.
TC's typically charge $200-500 per file IME. I just checked on their website, and their pricing starts at $800 for a cash deal, $1,000 for a subto deal, plus 30% if you haven't paid $8k+ or whatever it costs to be a "subto student". They can also set up loan servicing ($800 fee plus additional servicing fees), post closing services ($1,800 for HOA transfer, POA, insurance set up, mortgage portal setup, utility set up), or $2,300 for servicing and post closing package. According to the website they also offer document write ups for JV agreements, promissory notes, mortgage deed of trusts. This is outside the scope of what a typical TC does, IME. The "subto insurance" mentioned appears to be just regular landlord insurance, not insurance against a due on sale clause...
- 2yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Steve K.:
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
@Jay Hinrichs Regardless of what this TC's website says in the disclaimers, the pricing menu arguably reflects the unauthorized practice of law in several places. And yes there is post closing and servicing included plus loan doc prep, etc. I would think some fine tuning of the content is warranted... not trying to be a wet blanket here but just wow.
I get the impression that as @Jay Hinrichs says, having a TC under an active agent is both a good thing and is also under supervision of the agent/broker. That part I'm familiar with.
What is confusing to me, is that on a Subject To you rarely have an agent involved.
This TC seems to be implying they are independent, like maybe a notary.
They make sure that the paperwork is completed properly before going to escrow. Or, in some cases they take care of the paperwork (explaining things to sellers, getting signatures, closing outside of escrow) to free up the investor to look for more deals.
I think a lot of these deals are done without title reports, from what I've seen elsewhere. So the TC acts as the one to convince the seller that it's okay to sell using Subto, and act as the escrow agent. I mean it's so simple, right, talk with the seller to get them to sign a Docusign, it's just a few signatures, no money changing hands, what could go wrong.Ken, some TC's work freelance, not in-house for a brokerage so anyone can hire them to push paperwork on a transaction. Some states require TC's to be licensed and it's obviously a good idea for them to carry E&O insurance whether it's required or not, because as you know anyone involved in a transaction can be sued if things go sideways, whether they did anything wrong or not. Would E&O actually cover a subto transaction? I don't know, maybe you do, from reading your comments I know you have much more experience in these matters than I.
TC's typically charge $200-500 per file IME. I just checked on their website, and their pricing starts at $800 for a cash deal, $1,000 for a subto deal, plus 30% if you haven't paid $8k+ or whatever it costs to be a "subto student". They can also set up loan servicing ($800 fee plus additional servicing fees), post closing services ($1,800 for HOA transfer, POA, insurance set up, mortgage portal setup, utility set up), or $2,300 for servicing and post closing package. According to the website they also offer document write ups for JV agreements, promissory notes, mortgage deed of trusts. This is outside the scope of what a typical TC does, IME. The "subto insurance" mentioned appears to be just regular landlord insurance, not insurance against a due on sale clause...
I could not find their website on BP.. not sure how you found it.. whats the plus 30% you mean 1k to TC a sub to deal plus 300.00 if your not a 8k morby student ? producing Notes in most states is something that the title company will require an attorney to do.. an individual can prep their own note we do it often.. Some states i think IL for instance an attorney has to do the Deeds as well.
I can see where those with zero sub to experience would think this has value.. Ken s deal is 15k for the same stuff from what I have seen them comment on.. Although Kens partner and I am guessing they are partners Mike does have a lot of experience at sub to. - Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes2y
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Steve K.:
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
@Jay Hinrichs Regardless of what this TC's website says in the disclaimers, the pricing menu arguably reflects the unauthorized practice of law in several places. And yes there is post closing and servicing included plus loan doc prep, etc. I would think some fine tuning of the content is warranted... not trying to be a wet blanket here but just wow.
I get the impression that as @Jay Hinrichs says, having a TC under an active agent is both a good thing and is also under supervision of the agent/broker. That part I'm familiar with.
What is confusing to me, is that on a Subject To you rarely have an agent involved.
This TC seems to be implying they are independent, like maybe a notary.
They make sure that the paperwork is completed properly before going to escrow. Or, in some cases they take care of the paperwork (explaining things to sellers, getting signatures, closing outside of escrow) to free up the investor to look for more deals.
I think a lot of these deals are done without title reports, from what I've seen elsewhere. So the TC acts as the one to convince the seller that it's okay to sell using Subto, and act as the escrow agent. I mean it's so simple, right, talk with the seller to get them to sign a Docusign, it's just a few signatures, no money changing hands, what could go wrong.Ken, some TC's work freelance, not in-house for a brokerage so anyone can hire them to push paperwork on a transaction. Some states require TC's to be licensed and it's obviously a good idea for them to carry E&O insurance whether it's required or not, because as you know anyone involved in a transaction can be sued if things go sideways, whether they did anything wrong or not. Would E&O actually cover a subto transaction? I don't know, maybe you do, from reading your comments I know you have much more experience in these matters than I.
TC's typically charge $200-500 per file IME. I just checked on their website, and their pricing starts at $800 for a cash deal, $1,000 for a subto deal, plus 30% if you haven't paid $8k+ or whatever it costs to be a "subto student". They can also set up loan servicing ($800 fee plus additional servicing fees), post closing services ($1,800 for HOA transfer, POA, insurance set up, mortgage portal setup, utility set up), or $2,300 for servicing and post closing package. According to the website they also offer document write ups for JV agreements, promissory notes, mortgage deed of trusts. This is outside the scope of what a typical TC does, IME. The "subto insurance" mentioned appears to be just regular landlord insurance, not insurance against a due on sale clause...
I could not find their website on BP.. not sure how you found it.. whats the plus 30% you mean 1k to TC a sub to deal plus 300.00 if your not a 8k morby student ? producing Notes in most states is something that the title company will require an attorney to do.. an individual can prep their own note we do it often.. Some states i think IL for instance an attorney has to do the Deeds as well.
I can see where those with zero sub to experience would think this has value.. Ken s deal is 15k for the same stuff from what I have seen them comment on.. Although Kens partner and I am guessing they are partners Mike does have a lot of experience at sub to.Jay the website is just the company name dot com: Finishlinetcservices.com. I just googled “creative finance tc” and a handful of other similar brand new TC companies popped up with similar offerings, all priced well above what a typical TC charges per file, like $1,000 for a cash deal and up (my TC charges $200 for that), and yes they add 30% if you’re not a “subto student”. My title company handles a promissory note for $50, they’re charging $250. All these prices on these websites are absurd, 4-5x the going rate.
It seems “the community” has pivoted away from competing with each other for a handful of marginal subto “deals” into providing overpriced services to each other. They even have tabs like “apply for gator lending” although some of the tabs don’t really go anywhere except “schedule a consult”. Like the “subto insurance” tab that goes to regular landlord insurance.
Seems like a lot of people are making money off “the community”. In the absence of actually being able to find subto transactions (which will never exist in the volume they need with all the members of the community all chasing a limited number of naive or desperate sellers willing to sell that way) they’re all becoming TC’s to sell services to each other.
Remember that one example somebody provided on here awhile back that was an overly complex deal structure where a bunch of people made money off the transaction, when it was basically just a simple flip made ridiculously complicated and less profitable with a bunch of extra fingers from “the community” in the cookie jar? She could have just gotten a bridge loan for less, cut all those middle men from “the community” out and skipped all those unnecessary steps and saved thousands. A title company will provide much of this for free as part of a transaction.
I’m not a negative person and I love creative strategies, but ever since all the shills began posting a bunch of BS comments on here, spamming the forums, I’ve been highly skeptical of the whole operation and now what I see is this all imploding in a legal mess/ circular firing squad at some point. It seems like a bunch of naive people all in one place, following bad advice blindly. What if someone just takes out a bunch of gator loans and doesn’t pay them back, lol. They’re unsecured, unregulated, uninsured loans, right so what’s actually there to protect anyone? Or some of these sellers might smarten up and speak to lawyers… Ticking time bomb with good branding?
- 2yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Steve K.:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Steve K.:
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
@Jay Hinrichs Regardless of what this TC's website says in the disclaimers, the pricing menu arguably reflects the unauthorized practice of law in several places. And yes there is post closing and servicing included plus loan doc prep, etc. I would think some fine tuning of the content is warranted... not trying to be a wet blanket here but just wow.
I get the impression that as @Jay Hinrichs says, having a TC under an active agent is both a good thing and is also under supervision of the agent/broker. That part I'm familiar with.
What is confusing to me, is that on a Subject To you rarely have an agent involved.
This TC seems to be implying they are independent, like maybe a notary.
They make sure that the paperwork is completed properly before going to escrow. Or, in some cases they take care of the paperwork (explaining things to sellers, getting signatures, closing outside of escrow) to free up the investor to look for more deals.
I think a lot of these deals are done without title reports, from what I've seen elsewhere. So the TC acts as the one to convince the seller that it's okay to sell using Subto, and act as the escrow agent. I mean it's so simple, right, talk with the seller to get them to sign a Docusign, it's just a few signatures, no money changing hands, what could go wrong.Ken, some TC's work freelance, not in-house for a brokerage so anyone can hire them to push paperwork on a transaction. Some states require TC's to be licensed and it's obviously a good idea for them to carry E&O insurance whether it's required or not, because as you know anyone involved in a transaction can be sued if things go sideways, whether they did anything wrong or not. Would E&O actually cover a subto transaction? I don't know, maybe you do, from reading your comments I know you have much more experience in these matters than I.
TC's typically charge $200-500 per file IME. I just checked on their website, and their pricing starts at $800 for a cash deal, $1,000 for a subto deal, plus 30% if you haven't paid $8k+ or whatever it costs to be a "subto student". They can also set up loan servicing ($800 fee plus additional servicing fees), post closing services ($1,800 for HOA transfer, POA, insurance set up, mortgage portal setup, utility set up), or $2,300 for servicing and post closing package. According to the website they also offer document write ups for JV agreements, promissory notes, mortgage deed of trusts. This is outside the scope of what a typical TC does, IME. The "subto insurance" mentioned appears to be just regular landlord insurance, not insurance against a due on sale clause...
I could not find their website on BP.. not sure how you found it.. whats the plus 30% you mean 1k to TC a sub to deal plus 300.00 if your not a 8k morby student ? producing Notes in most states is something that the title company will require an attorney to do.. an individual can prep their own note we do it often.. Some states i think IL for instance an attorney has to do the Deeds as well.
I can see where those with zero sub to experience would think this has value.. Ken s deal is 15k for the same stuff from what I have seen them comment on.. Although Kens partner and I am guessing they are partners Mike does have a lot of experience at sub to.Jay the website is just the company name dot com: Finishlinetcservices.com. I just googled “creative finance tc” and a handful of other similar brand new TC companies popped up with similar offerings, all priced well above what a typical TC charges per file, like $1,000 for a cash deal and up (my TC charges $200 for that), and yes they add 30% if you’re not a “subto student”. My title company handles a promissory note for $50, they’re charging $250. All these prices on these websites are absurd, 4-5x the going rate.
It seems “the community” has pivoted away from competing with each other for a handful of marginal subto “deals” into providing overpriced services to each other. They even have tabs like “apply for gator lending” although some of the tabs don’t really go anywhere except “schedule a consult”. Like the “subto insurance” tab that goes to regular landlord insurance.
Seems like a lot of people are making money off “the community”. In the absence of actually being able to find subto transactions (which will never exist in the volume they need with all the members of the community all chasing a limited number of naive or desperate sellers willing to sell that way) they’re all becoming TC’s to sell services to each other.
Remember that one example somebody provided on here awhile back that was an overly complex deal structure where a bunch of people made money off the transaction, when it was basically just a simple flip made ridiculously complicated and less profitable with a bunch of extra fingers from “the community” in the cookie jar? She could have just gotten a bridge loan for less, cut all those middle men from “the community” out and skipped all those unnecessary steps and saved thousands. A title company will provide much of this for free as part of a transaction.
I’m not a negative person and I love creative strategies, but ever since all the shills began posting a bunch of BS comments on here, spamming the forums, I’ve been highly skeptical of the whole operation and now what I see is this all imploding in a legal mess/ circular firing squad at some point. It seems like a bunch of naive people all in one place, following bad advice blindly. What if someone just takes out a bunch of gator loans and doesn’t pay them back, lol. They’re unsecured, unregulated, uninsured loans, right so what’s actually there to protect anyone? Or some of these sellers might smarten up and speak to lawyers… Ticking time bomb with good branding?
Gothca.. i am sure there is a fullfilment company behind the main guy just pumping out thousands upon thousands of e mails and tik toks and u tubes.. as we know get rich in real estate with no credit and no money sells . its just how you package it. to be fair and balanced you also have Mike H . promoting his service on almost every single thread about owner finance and sub too.. although he is more up front about it.. IE your going to pay him 15k for his services and he does say you need money to do this.. of course you need the 15k to pay him to teach you and provide whatever written collaeral he provides for that fee.. Sub to is just not that complicated.. but its not appropriate for the way folks are trying to use it.. IE take title to a property and leave a long term loan in place. I dont care who is setting that up .. crap happens and these deals are going to get unwound and original sellers are going to get hurt.. all the sub to's I did and do are short term flips.. we pay off the mortgage within 6 to 18 months .. I think thats an appropriate application of the niche. Along with having the actual financial ability to execute..
With this huge herd of beginners out there being talked into this stuff you know there is going to be heartache along the way.. they have even moved into selling their cars sub too.. what ta disaster that is.. LOL - 2yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Steve K.:
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
@Jay Hinrichs Regardless of what this TC's website says in the disclaimers, the pricing menu arguably reflects the unauthorized practice of law in several places. And yes there is post closing and servicing included plus loan doc prep, etc. I would think some fine tuning of the content is warranted... not trying to be a wet blanket here but just wow.
I get the impression that as @Jay Hinrichs says, having a TC under an active agent is both a good thing and is also under supervision of the agent/broker. That part I'm familiar with.
What is confusing to me, is that on a Subject To you rarely have an agent involved.
This TC seems to be implying they are independent, like maybe a notary.
They make sure that the paperwork is completed properly before going to escrow. Or, in some cases they take care of the paperwork (explaining things to sellers, getting signatures, closing outside of escrow) to free up the investor to look for more deals.
I think a lot of these deals are done without title reports, from what I've seen elsewhere. So the TC acts as the one to convince the seller that it's okay to sell using Subto, and act as the escrow agent. I mean it's so simple, right, talk with the seller to get them to sign a Docusign, it's just a few signatures, no money changing hands, what could go wrong.Ken, some TC's work freelance, not in-house for a brokerage so anyone can hire them to push paperwork on a transaction. Some states require TC's to be licensed and it's obviously a good idea for them to carry E&O insurance whether it's required or not, because as you know anyone involved in a transaction can be sued if things go sideways, whether they did anything wrong or not. Would E&O actually cover a subto transaction? I don't know, maybe you do, from reading your comments I know you have much more experience in these matters than I.
TC's typically charge $200-500 per file IME. I just checked on their website, and their pricing starts at $800 for a cash deal, $1,000 for a subto deal, plus 30% if you haven't paid $8k+ or whatever it costs to be a "subto student". They can also set up loan servicing ($800 fee plus additional servicing fees), post closing services ($1,800 for HOA transfer, POA, insurance set up, mortgage portal setup, utility set up), or $2,300 for servicing and post closing package. According to the website they also offer document write ups for JV agreements, promissory notes, mortgage deed of trusts. This is outside the scope of what a typical TC does, IME. The "subto insurance" mentioned appears to be just regular landlord insurance, not insurance against a due on sale clause...
I could not find their website on BP.. not sure how you found it.. whats the plus 30% you mean 1k to TC a sub to deal plus 300.00 if your not a 8k morby student ? producing Notes in most states is something that the title company will require an attorney to do.. an individual can prep their own note we do it often.. Some states i think IL for instance an attorney has to do the Deeds as well.
I can see where those with zero sub to experience would think this has value.. Ken s deal is 15k for the same stuff from what I have seen them comment on.. Although Kens partner and I am guessing they are partners Mike does have a lot of experience at sub to.I'm obviously new to Bigger Pockets so it's interesting to see your insights. Thanks
I’m thinking of starting using the Subto method so I wanted to see what all the noise is about. I checked into both (and a couple of others elsewhere) and here are the differences I’ve found
Pace Morby
With Pace Morby you are paying to be in a "community" but no personal training. No guarantee to buy a property and he teaches he's okay with paying more than market price for properties if it cash flows. Anyone can sign up and he pushes the "no money needed" stuff. Encourages you to borrow money to join. Doesn't much cover how to avoid Due on Sale. Says convert to Land Contract if DOS called. Friendly group. Hard to tell how many are actually able to buy a property. He is not personally available to answer questions, says to go to the community and someone there will probably help. (Who knows how reliable the information that "some random people" provides.) His people spamming Bigger Pockets doesn't make me comfortable. His sales people are pushy.
Mike Hern
On a phone call with Mike Hern, very personable, he actually teaches one on one and has weekly individual phone calls with you and if you don't buy a property you get your money back. Must have money for reserves or he won't take you. Buys only off market, not MLS. Must buy at low LTV. Uses lots of disclosures. Doesn't believe in trying to hide the transfer. He's been at it for a lot longer and has been through down markets. Says key to doing Subto is to expect the unexpected and have good exit strategies. Teaches complete real estate, finding leads, title reports & escrow, closing & holding, systems, methods, procedures, asset protection, tax sources, legal sources, the other methods of buying, etc. Of course his is for a year of one on one, picks up the phone when you have a question. Very thorough especially with beginners. Fills in the gaps for anyone. No upcharges and includes forms & services. He did say they have a monthly option of $1,500 a month, pay as you go, that gives you and him an opportunity to see if it's a good fit.
There may be other things for both but that’s what I’ve found.
I guess it depends on if you want the friendly “group” experience, that seems more focused on trying to get a deal, any deal, without worrying about what comes after that
or one on one training with a focus on profitability, not getting sued and is as concerned about how to manage properties after buying them. I’m probably going to give him a shot on the monthly pay as you go and see if it’s as good as I think.
They are very different approaches.
Excellent feed back let us know how it all goes.. Mike also talks about selling on lease option with 40k down.. I have done a lot of owner finance stuff and 40k option fee's are just not falling off the trucks. I suspect you can find one but I dont think its super common. Unless your buying 500k plus props. I had some new construction in Oregon ivyridgeestatescanby dot com check it out this is my project 90 brand new homes.. when things got slow last summer I thought I would lease option a few of my spec homes and Even asking for 20k down I got push back and never did close one . the folks with the 20 to 40k that I did find just bought them outright. So if your buying with Equity and the buyer decides to buy and cash you out thats a good thing too. But I am personally not convinced that 40k option payment buyers are out there in any great number. As for how to do it and experience I have no doubt the info is solid. - Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes2y
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Steve K.:
Your website says you offer "Subto Insurance". How does this work exactly? Thanks!Quote from @Shenell Caldeira:
Our team can help you with paperwork in Subto.
We have a team of Transaction Coordinators at Finish Line TC Services that specialize in creative financing through Paceʻs mentorship. We are here to answer any questions you may have on our services and how we can provide value to you and your business as TCʻs. We handle all 50 states plus Puerto Rico. Feel free to book a consult!
its does not exist in the strict insurance world there is no such thing. As an insurance policy for this transaction.Sherell There is no such fantasy as sub to insurance. Please advise who Underwrites that? Also how does a TC process a VA loan in default?
@Account Closed the servicer DOES NOT have to honor any authorization. Most refuse to speak to you. How are you getting hazard insurance that will actually pay if there is a claim?
- Member since 2023 · 3 posts · 0 votes2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
I'm closing on a property in Douglas County, Colorado subject to today. This is my first sub2 purchase. I'm trying to confirm if a signed POA along with a signed Auth to Release Info sheet is satisfactory for accessing the seller's mortgage in the future?
Congratulations on your first SubTo deal! Are you in the SubTo mentorship?
If you work with Top Tier TC, they provide the paperwork necessary for making all the post close changes that are necessary for your new investment property! Top Tier TC is Pace Morby's team of Transaction Coordinators working directly under Molly Tennant (Pace's Chief of Operations).
This is the link I used to get a quote to have someone help with my transaction -
- Member since 2023 · 3 posts · 0 votes2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
If I do a hybrid and I need paperwork for a carryback, how much do they charge to draw that up?Quote from @Kelly Humbarger:
Quote from @Account Closed:
I'm closing on a property in Douglas County, Colorado subject to today. This is my first sub2 purchase. I'm trying to confirm if a signed POA along with a signed Auth to Release Info sheet is satisfactory for accessing the seller's mortgage in the future?
Congratulations on your first SubTo deal! Are you in the SubTo mentorship?
If you work with Top Tier TC, they provide the paperwork necessary for making all the post close changes that are necessary for your new investment property! Top Tier TC is Pace Morby's team of Transaction Coordinators working directly under Molly Tennant (Pace's Chief of Operations).
This is the link I used to get a quote to have someone help with my transaction
They removed my link for some reason - I'm fairly new to this forum so maybe they don't allow links.
What paperwork are you looking for specifically? The POA paperwork or the Security Instruments?
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