Reducing Flood Insurance Costs

Reducing Flood Insurance Costs

Jupiter, FL · Member since 2014 · 95 posts · 32 votes

Flood insurance is a major issue given the weather conditions the eastern seaboard has seen in the last few years. Many expect it will continue to be an issue with climate change. I am sure many of you are seeing rate increases that are hurting your bottom line.

What can be done to reduce premiums and protect our investments? Several mitigation techniques can often significantly impact your costs. Lower premiums mean more cash flow and often a more valuable property.

There are Wet and Dry flood mitigation techniques that applicable in different settings. This can mean something as simple as having foundation flood vents installed for a crawl space or garage. This can also be as complex as a dry flood proofing system preventing water from going through building entrances.

More and more we are seeing entire buildings raised to reduce premiums and protect structures. Properties can also have some of their crawl spaces or basements filled in to reduce premiums. 

Beyond that work with Flood Insurance maps themselves can reduce premiums with a Letter of Map Amendment. 

My point is that "the price" isn't always "the price" if there is something you can do to change it. You can use this to get better returns from your current properties and as a competitive advantage with value add investing in new ones. Additionally mitigation techniques might help reduce vacancy in the event of a flood or hurricane by reducing the amount of damage a structure receives and thus reducing the time needed for repairs.

So at this point you are probably wondering well how much can I save and how much will this cost? Well that depends on what is going on with your elevation certificate and what your current premiums are. You can potentially save thousands annually but varies from case to case.

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Rental Property Investor · Port Richey, FL · Member since 2015 · 45 posts · 45 votes
8y

I hate to say it, but there is a lot of misinformation in this thread.  I own multiple properties on the west coast of Florida in flood zones.  There are so many variables that go into flood quotes.  I have three houses directly on the beach.  All are in a VE zone.  House A is in a BFE (Base Flood Elevation) of 15 and is elevated 17 feet.  House B & C are in BFEs of 13.  House B is elevated to 14 feet, house C is on the ground 10 feet below the BFE.

With the same amount of coverage, $250K, tell me which premium is for which house?

$2,300

$6,900

$6,700

If you guessed the house on the ground (House C) is the cheapest, you are right!  Next cheapest is the house only 1 foot above BFE (House B) and the most expensive is the house 2 feet above BFE (House A).

Grandfathering impacts rates more than anything.  Flood vents, break-away walls and such have such a little effect on rates.

FEMA and private flood companies are ridiculous when they are not grandfathered in and you can't really get around it.

Just trying to figure out how they really rate the buildings with different features, I had my agent go through each building type in the same location, with the same elevation.  This would take an hour to give you insight on how it impacted rates, but nominally.  With flood vents, without, with break-away walls, without.  It always came to BFE and an assumable policy (grandfathering).

http://premierflood.com/e-comm/building-diagrams.p...

What I had come to find out, diagram 5 which allows flood waters to flow without restriction were still very high (Building B).  

(Building A) which is diagram 6 due to an elevator that is on the outside of the main structure.

Finally, Building C is a diagram 1B which actually lifts the house on stem walls which makes it perfect that a house is 16" off the ground so it can more easily float away.

All that said, the most important thing is to not let grandfathering expire.

If it does, you are not going to significantly impact your rates with breakaway walls (diagram 6) or flood vents.

Also, I would love if it was true that FEMA would pay 75% to raise my house that is on the ground in the flood zone. It would save me the $85K I am about to spend raising it (there is some limited grant monies available, but it is not easy to get and you have to wait over a year to see if you might get some of it as the process is pretty drawn out). If that was the case, why is not every ground level house on the beach being raised? Simply FEMA does not pay for houses that have not been flooded and you can only get a grant if you have been flooded and there are is a series of criteria you have to meet to get a partial payment, if any. If FEMA really did that, why would anyone be stupid enough to buy flood insurance if FEMA is just going to give it to you anyway?

There is more I can go into on this, I am just pressed for time tonight and I stumbled across this thread.  

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Jupiter, FL · Member since 2014 · 95 posts · 32 votes
    9y

    Raising mechanicals can help lower flood insurance rates as they are less likely to be damaged by flood water. Above are two examples.

    Here are some engineered foundation flood vents mentioned in first post. They help relieve hydrostatic pressure on foundations by allowing water to flow freely in and out of the building during a flood. This model opens automatically with floats as opposed to pressure which prevents rodents from entering the building on a normal day.

    Different vents cover different areas. What I mean by this is while some vents can cover 50 square feet of interior space, others cover 200 square feet of area. This can dramatically influence the amounts of openings required for your building. 

    Also I don't recommend using air vents as they must be permanently disabled in the open position. If ventilation is a concern and you need vents than this could be a good solution for you as it opens when it is hot and closes when it is cold while still protecting against flood and rodents. 

    This is flexwall a point of use storage dry flood proofing system that is used in commercial applications. It was designed by the guys who make NASA's space suits and is reinforced with kevlar to help protect against impacts during a flood. The technology has been used to protect critical infrastructure in NY like the transit system.

  • Real Estate Broker · Boca Raton, FL · Member since 2014 · 98 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Tom Brooks Good post.... this is definitely interesting. I live on the west coast of Florida now, but I also have properties on the east coast. The thought of reducing the cost of flood insurance crossed my mind as I'm sure it did other coastal investors, with the recent hurricane. What sort of recommendations do you have for properties that don't have a crawl space? Would lifting my air condenser onto a platform on any property reduce the flood insurance? There was also a man in Texas that purchased a dam that surrounded his property,  (you have probably seen it being in your line of work), I thought that was interesting, but of course not very practical on a routine basis, but I wondered if something of that nature could be applied in a similar fashion to hurricane shutters.... i.e. you install hurricane shutters and your premium goes way down and they essentially pay for themselves in a couple of years. Could buying an artificial dam for your property work the same way? Again, I know not very practical on a routine basis and the storage would be difficult to overcome, but if something like that saved thousands per year I'd find a way to build some sort of storage for it! The article is below:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637271/Texas-man-uses-dam-filled-WATER-house-dry-27-inch-flood.html

  • Insurance Agent · West Long Branch · Member since 2015 · 206 posts · 64 votes
    9y

    @Tom Brooks Per the NFIP Guidelines Dry Flood Proofing (Flood Panels) Will only provide a credit for commercial properties (non-residential) and thats only after extensive modeling has been done and provided to FIMA and thats only if FEMA Engineers Approve the models. This process of getting such approval can take several months to more than a year.

  • Jupiter, FL · Member since 2014 · 95 posts · 32 votes
    9y

    @Fausto Carosella Every property is different. The artificial dam you are referring would not reduce premiums for most properties and could be expensive. ROI on some techniques like vents can be very good. I would recommend reaching out to a company called smartvent. They have a team called FRE that can review your your elevation certificates and insurance policies on a property by property basis to look for potential reductions. Our company will do this for free if you mention me and BP. You can then take the mitigation steps and get that insurance rate through us or your current provider.

    @Anthony Lee To your point dry flood proofing is generally only used on commercial properties and there is a process. My point with all of this is that there are opportunities to save that people are not taking advantage of because they are unaware. Additionally flood proofing can be about protecting you property and not just premiums.

  • Investor · London · Member since 2017 · 160 posts · 82 votes
    8y

    @Tom Brooks

    Hi Tom, Many thanks for a great, helpful article. I have a friend who bought a new construction property near the beach in the Northeast that was significantly elevated (from memory 12 feet) and her flood premiums were quite low.

    It didn't look unattractive and their back porch had great views as a result of the height.

    So as I've been researching Florida properties (specifically Orlando) I noticed how few of the homes were elevated, even the new builds. Perhaps the builders are avoiding flood zones so they're not elevating for that reason.

    Are people opposed to the look of the elevation? Is it an issue for elderly buyers? Small elevation would be fine I imagine with ramps but my friend's house would need a weird looking ramp! Thanks again.

  • Jupiter, FL · Member since 2014 · 95 posts · 32 votes
    8y

    @Jennifer S. Thanks for the follow up. Building over a few feet over base flood elevation is relatively inexpensive for new construction. For existing buildings a retrofit involves physically lifting a building which can be very expensive. Depending on a number of factors including the flood zone determination and various mitigation methods the insurance premiums can vary significantly under the current NFIP guidelines.  The NFIP program is actively being reviewed and we could see some changes in the near future.

    Flordia will soon be requiring by code, free board which basically means building to a certain hight over base flood elevation for new construction. There are costs associated with building more resilient structures and unfortunately this could be part of the reason some structures haven't been built as well as they could be. 

    Avoiding flood zones can be a good idea and in fact many would recommend this. Unfortunately in the past fill has been used as a means to develop in flood zones. The issue with this is the adverse impact on the flood plain. If this is done to a sizable area then structures that were not previously at risk are now put into harm's way.

    I don't think people are opposed to looking at elevations. I think the issue here is one of awareness. Inspections generally don't cover flood mitigation and people don't typically look into flood insurance unless they are required to for their mortgage or they have experienced a flood event. Another major issue is that floods still happen outside flood zones. People often overlook flood insurance and mitigation when they learn they are not in a flood zone or near the coast through a false sense of security. They also overlook this when it is not covered in their home inspections despite flood being the leading natural disaster in the US.

    We are seeing  flood events increase in frequency and intensity. I would encourage those looking to learn more about specific property risk to visit the flood risk evaluator which can review elevation certificates and flood zone determinations for mistakes. They can also make recommendations on various mitigation methods like raising mechanicals or using fill in a sub-grade space to potentially lower flood insurance premiums with your current insurer and so on. 

    There are other ways to learn about a property's risk from various other hazards. One example is Hazard Hub. While this is a bit outside of what I do and I don't know a whole ton about it; I think it could be useful when evaluating properties to purchase and perhaps considering additions things to insure for.

    The accessibility issue might or might not be an issue depending of height, the buyer's mobility and so on. I hope that helps.

  • Investor · London · Member since 2017 · 160 posts · 82 votes
    8y

    @Tom Brooks, thanks for the very helpful information. I'll look into the sites you shared. I first started digging into this issue when looking to buy in Boston in some years ago. At the time I was also looking at the seaside city of Quincy and was totally surprised to find that parts of Quincy bordering a river were at higher flood risk than some parts quite close to the ocean that were on higher ground. This was from the FEMA add in to Google Earth. Interestingly, a few weeks after I was researching this river (it's called a "Brook", how is that for misleading) flooded and there was TV footage of people's sofas floating.

    Since that day I've checked every property I am seriously considering into the FEMA - Google Earth thing. I'm looking for faster ways though, that system takes forever to load and is hard to understand for a layperson. I think awareness of these issues is only going to get stronger. Thanks again!

  • China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    @Tom Brooks My flood insurance guy tells me that if a property has a history of flood damage, FEMA will pay 100% of the cost to raise it up on pilings. If there is no history, but it's in a flood zone, they will pay 75%.

    The most altitude you can gain in your flood rating is 4 feet.

  • Rental Property Investor · Port Richey, FL · Member since 2015 · 45 posts · 45 votes
    8y

    I hate to say it, but there is a lot of misinformation in this thread.  I own multiple properties on the west coast of Florida in flood zones.  There are so many variables that go into flood quotes.  I have three houses directly on the beach.  All are in a VE zone.  House A is in a BFE (Base Flood Elevation) of 15 and is elevated 17 feet.  House B & C are in BFEs of 13.  House B is elevated to 14 feet, house C is on the ground 10 feet below the BFE.

    With the same amount of coverage, $250K, tell me which premium is for which house?

    $2,300

    $6,900

    $6,700

    If you guessed the house on the ground (House C) is the cheapest, you are right!  Next cheapest is the house only 1 foot above BFE (House B) and the most expensive is the house 2 feet above BFE (House A).

    Grandfathering impacts rates more than anything.  Flood vents, break-away walls and such have such a little effect on rates.

    FEMA and private flood companies are ridiculous when they are not grandfathered in and you can't really get around it.

    Just trying to figure out how they really rate the buildings with different features, I had my agent go through each building type in the same location, with the same elevation.  This would take an hour to give you insight on how it impacted rates, but nominally.  With flood vents, without, with break-away walls, without.  It always came to BFE and an assumable policy (grandfathering).

    http://premierflood.com/e-comm/building-diagrams.p...

    What I had come to find out, diagram 5 which allows flood waters to flow without restriction were still very high (Building B).  

    (Building A) which is diagram 6 due to an elevator that is on the outside of the main structure.

    Finally, Building C is a diagram 1B which actually lifts the house on stem walls which makes it perfect that a house is 16" off the ground so it can more easily float away.

    All that said, the most important thing is to not let grandfathering expire.

    If it does, you are not going to significantly impact your rates with breakaway walls (diagram 6) or flood vents.

    Also, I would love if it was true that FEMA would pay 75% to raise my house that is on the ground in the flood zone. It would save me the $85K I am about to spend raising it (there is some limited grant monies available, but it is not easy to get and you have to wait over a year to see if you might get some of it as the process is pretty drawn out). If that was the case, why is not every ground level house on the beach being raised? Simply FEMA does not pay for houses that have not been flooded and you can only get a grant if you have been flooded and there are is a series of criteria you have to meet to get a partial payment, if any. If FEMA really did that, why would anyone be stupid enough to buy flood insurance if FEMA is just going to give it to you anyway?

    There is more I can go into on this, I am just pressed for time tonight and I stumbled across this thread.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Port Richey, FL · Member since 2015 · 45 posts · 45 votes
    8y

    Also, one other quick item...the grants that are out there are generally for state and local governments. The situations in which FEMA will "pay" to raise your house loosely is based upon a number of things. One being you had a FEMA flood policy (not a private market policy), two your house was flooded and three you had the ICC option which is the Increased Cost of Compliance (I think that is what it stood for) and what that is...it is where FEMA will pay to elevate your damaged property up to a certain amount. Think about it this way, many places will not let you rebuild back on the ground. So the ICC part of your insurance does not cover the cost to rebuild, but to raise the house to new building code requirements above the current BFE....and that is capped at something like $30K. So that only covers a part of it in reality as you may recall in my earlier post it is costing $85K to raise one of my houses (1200 sq ft house). So unless you are vacation renting and probably doing it with condos, I don't suggest purchasing annual rentals in and area with high flood rates hoping you will get them to go down. If it will be in a flood zone, make sure it is a low cost flood zone like a B, C or X zone that generally only cost $200 to $400 per year.

  • Investor · London · Member since 2017 · 160 posts · 82 votes
    8y

    @Bob Bello, thanks this is important information and thank you for taking the time to outline it.

    One of the reasons I'm going a bit patiently on my next cash flow driven investment (whether in FL or MA), is I want to better understand these issues before investing. With the rentals I'm looking at, a spike in flood insurance would greatly impact the cash flow. If properties outside the flood zones can also flood, I'm just trying to figure out how to assess the various risks. 

    I also have seen what happens to property prices where I live when they are not mortgage-able (slightly different case--I'm in the United Kingdom right now and banks don't like to lend on certain types of construction that I think US banks would find quite fine). Prices are much lower as it becomes an all cash market. That's not the end of the world but I don't want to take a hit on my own investment if the mortgage-ability changes after I buy it.

    I hope I wasn't giving misinformation-I didn't mean to imply the FEMA zones are perfect predictors, for me it was just an eye opener that rivers could trigger a worse score than things closer to the beach. Call me naive, it was my first US property purchase!...My friend who bought a raised house, it was new construction so no cost to raise an existing building.

    One question I had about Building C/diagram 1B, did you mean the 16' height means it could float away more easily? Thanks again

  • China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    @Bob B. The information I quoted on FEMA payments for raising homes came directly from Tim Carty, owner of Murphy Carty Insurance in Scituate, MA.

    Scituate is an oceanfront community that has many homes that are in VE through AE flood zones.  It's one of the towns that's frequently featured on national news programs when storms impact the northeast.

    Perhaps things are different in Florida, but I have every reason to trust Tim as he's been selling flood insurance for a very long time.

    Full disclosure - I have no relationship with Murphy Carty Insurance other than as a customer for my home, auto, business and builder's risk policies.  I have never received any compensation from them whatsoever.

  • China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    @Jennifer S. One of the tools you might look at is the GIS map for each particular town you're interested in.

    Google "[town name] GIS". Many (not all) of the GIS maps have a FEMA flood layer.

    This image is from a property I just put under contract in Plymouth MA.  The ocean is at the top right.

    As I understand it, VE stand for "velocity", meaning the property is expected to suffer damage from wind driven water.  The number following it is the predicted depth of the 100 year flood.  VE is unofficially known as "Very Expensive".  The AE zones are "Almost as Expensive".  

    "X" means that the property is not expected to flood and flood insurance is not required.

  • Rental Property Investor · Port Richey, FL · Member since 2015 · 45 posts · 45 votes
    8y

    Charlie,

    I understand you are simply repeating what has been told to you, but that can get us in trouble as an agent (liability wise).

    I am an investor and agent myself. I have roughly 50 properties here in Florida. FEMA regulations do not change by state. We were just hit by the last major storm Irma. So we have been through it here too.

    So let's help the BP community. If what Tim is saying is true, can you ask him to kindly share a link to the FEMA program application that will raise the houses for free if previously damaged or that FEMA will pay 75% if not previously damaged? It will help everyone on the BP forums.

    Here is one FEMA link that speaks to it to a certain extent.

    https://www.fema.gov/news-release/2013/01/29/eleva...

    Here is the FEMA link for the grant program.

    https://www.fema.gov/flood-mitigation-assistance-g...

    Maybe there are others I am missing. Additionally, as I mentioned in the previous posts, the grant process is very drawn out. I may be wrong, but I don't think a homeowner can apply directly for Flood Mitigation Assistance per se. It must be sponsored through the State. That said, the Mitigation Assistance program only applies to those already insured by the FEMA program (you can't have private flood insurance which is usually cheaper). So if you already have FEMA insurance and you are damaged, you already have insurance coverage and ICC coverage (although it may not cover 100% of your repair and elevation costs due to FEMA payment caps).

    Here is the question I would pose to Tim. Why does he sell flood insurance when he can just tell his clients to let FEMA pay to rebuild their houses if they get damaged in the storm? Is he providing his clients with the process to get their houses raised or is he still selling them flood insurance? Ask him what ICC is and what are the limits?

    Please don't take any of this personal, I just want to see the right information out there.  If I am incorrect, it would be awesome to know as I can obviously save myself $85K in raising my house.  But there were also comments about buying a house and expecting by installing flood vents or filling in a crawl space would significantly reduce flood premiums.  I have spent countless days/weeks/hours on how to reduce the flood premiums and I have found those items has such a minute impact they rarely pay for themselves even over a 5 year or greater period.

    If anyone feels I have posted incorrect information, please feel free to correct me.  I am just looking to make sure someone does not erroneously go down the wrong path.

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