What kind of Form/Estimate Sheet do you give your contractor?

What kind of Form/Estimate Sheet do you give your contractor?

Rental Property Investor · Somewhere over the Rainbow · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

Wondering what kind of form/estimate sheet you all give your contractor?

I've completed various renos, usually on the smaller side <40k and always used an excel spreadsheet with what is to be done, kind of broken down into categories - flooring, roofing, painting etc. Never done a full house flip however. 

For each category I have a price/estimate - then essentially compile everything to get to my estimate. I've typically found the subs I want to do individually - however I this next one I'm using a contractor. He's a small company and does a lot of the work himself, so he doesn't charge the 20-30% on top like most of them do. Found him through my property management company (he's one of the guys they use). I have also generally used verbal estimates (I know there is a better way to do this) and I give an amount to NOT go over. If this is to be exceeded, then I need to know why and about every cost from here on out. 

The other thing is payment - I NEVER pay for jobs up front. I will pay for materials and ask for receipts. I typically will split the jobs up into 3rds or 4ths and pay in sections of work completed. I do get a 1099 from from them to so I can add whatever the amount is into my cost basis and depreciate it. 

I was just trying to figure out what the "standard" was, for what you all do for larger renos and flips. There's a lot to keep track of and a lot that can fall through the cracks. And there's always the estimate vs the real cost.

Any advice to standardize and systemize this?!

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Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
3y

@Jeremy H. Your job as an investor is to create a scope of work of what you want done.

His job as a contractor is to quote the Job based on your scope of work. I would create a scope of work in order of operations

Exterior

Mechanicals

Framing

Drywall

Ect

Ect…

Let him bid per line item of work and you can decide to give him the full job or manage yourself by managing subs and give him some work.

As for payment schedule and receipts that’s up to you and the contractor.

If you were doing a job with our company we do not let clients but materials and we require 50% up front, 25%, 25%. We don’t negotiate because we don’t have to, we are booked out 4-16 weeks depending on job type and season.

If he’s a smaller contractor and isn’t doing a huge volume you can probably negotiate a payment schedule and you can pay for materials.

Just be careful because if you pay materials you are probably also on the hook for estimating materials.

If he tells you he can do the job for 5K in labor and gives you a rough estimate of 5K in materials and it ends up being 15k in materials and he has receipts for everything… who pays? You do!

That’s why we include all materials and labor in our quotes. Less surprises and easier for us and the client.

I can see why you would want to pay for materials on a smaller job while you build trust with a contractor, but it’s kind of a pain for you to verify every screw, and gallon of paint.

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  • Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2021 · 9k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    Give a project manager all these responsibilities. I split my contractors milestones by the week. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Somewhere over the Rainbow · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Eliott Elias:

    Give a project manager all these responsibilities. I split my contractors milestones by the week. 


     That sounds more time consuming than just doing it myself honestly. If I was doing 20 houses a year - ok. No need to hire out managing several small scale rehabs a year 

    I'm assuming you're doing the volume to hire a project manager?

  • Investor · Nutley, NJ · Member since 2017 · 72 posts · 56 votes
    3y

    Jeremy, what's your email address?  I can send you a couple of documents that I think will be helpful. 

  • Contractor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    I have a sheet I use that I can send you that is pretty thorough. I use it for my own rough rehab budget though, I don't ever give it to the contractor. If you'd like to see it shoot me a message.

    My process from my very first house flip 11 years ago until today has been to walk the project with my general contractor, explain everything that I'd like to have done in detail, and then give them a few days (up to a few weeks on bigger jobs) to give me a detailed estimate. Some of them send an estimate in excel. Some on a PDF. But they provide the line-item estimate in their own format.

    Any contractor I've ever worked with operates this way. This is whether I'm working with a smaller shop for a project that has a $30,000 budget... or building a new $2,000,000 spec. 

  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    @Jeremy H. Your job as an investor is to create a scope of work of what you want done.

    His job as a contractor is to quote the Job based on your scope of work. I would create a scope of work in order of operations

    Exterior

    Mechanicals

    Framing

    Drywall

    Ect

    Ect…

    Let him bid per line item of work and you can decide to give him the full job or manage yourself by managing subs and give him some work.

    As for payment schedule and receipts that’s up to you and the contractor.

    If you were doing a job with our company we do not let clients but materials and we require 50% up front, 25%, 25%. We don’t negotiate because we don’t have to, we are booked out 4-16 weeks depending on job type and season.

    If he’s a smaller contractor and isn’t doing a huge volume you can probably negotiate a payment schedule and you can pay for materials.

    Just be careful because if you pay materials you are probably also on the hook for estimating materials.

    If he tells you he can do the job for 5K in labor and gives you a rough estimate of 5K in materials and it ends up being 15k in materials and he has receipts for everything… who pays? You do!

    That’s why we include all materials and labor in our quotes. Less surprises and easier for us and the client.

    I can see why you would want to pay for materials on a smaller job while you build trust with a contractor, but it’s kind of a pain for you to verify every screw, and gallon of paint.

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  • Member since 2021 · 88 posts · 80 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jeremy Horton:

    I was just trying to figure out what the "standard" was, for what you all do for larger renos and flips. There's a lot to keep track of and a lot that can fall through the cracks. And there's always the estimate vs the real cost.

    Any advice to standardize and systemize this?!

    The whole point of hiring a GC “company” as you put it, is to NOT be the GC of your own project as you basically operated as on your prior projects. What does this “company” offer in terms of detail documentation? I didn't see in your post what they provide as opposed to what you are worried they don't provide. Sure, be prepared with simple scope of work clarity for your job, but if you’re doing spreadsheets, measurements, material breakdowns, and then trying to dictate the terms of payment releases, who’s contracting who here? You’re just describing this GC as a sub and not a real business provider. What level of documentation did this company offer? I sure didn't let my clients dictate my contractual documentation, but was happy to see they knew what they wanted. If you’re stating they don't provide much for documentation, well, you’re discount comes with a price and some risk, that you are trying to fill in for them. So is he a sub or really a GC?
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y

    @Jeremy Horton You are trying to be your own GC while hiring a GC. That may work on a small job with a small/new GC, but generally this concept will fail. I would suggest you either run the project or hire a GC to run the project.

    However if you insist, the typical way to do this is for you to give the GC a 'wish list' of sorts. He will of course find other stuff that you can't see because he's a pro and you're not. Then have him give you a detailed proposal with a price attached to each phase of work. I would suggest paying in thirds. 1/3 up front should get him the materials and a little profit, same for the 2/3, of course hold the 3/3 until the phase has been completed and inspected (if applicable). This is fair to both parties.

    Once you do this a couple times, you will likely learn (the hard way) not to get involved in the materials. You don't just save a buck, but you become totally responsible for everything related to them. You pay for $10k worth of lumber. Who arranges for delivery and meets the truck? Who inspects the lumber to make sure it's not warped and stacked correctly? Who unloads it? Who makes it safe so it doesn't get stolen? You get my point. Same with appliances/tile/cabinets/etc. 

    You want to buy them, you accept all responsibility. Any GC who allows otherwise is a rookie or a fool, and you don't want either running your project.

  • Real Estate Consultant · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 738 votes
    3y

    I have 3 different form fillable scope of work forms. Just different arrangement and details. I also require them to use a free program I link to them where they upload photos and videos. You can also link to your lender. Helps with draws. 

    I make these available in my Download Center as well. 

  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    @Matthew Irish-Jones

    I appreciate your post.  It seems to me that a lot of the advice on BP for new investors just will not work with good, busy contractors as you said.  New investors are typically told - don't pay up front, try to buy your own materials, and put penalty clauses in the contract.  But... a lot of busy, reputable contractors won't agree to these terms with someone they've never done business with.

    • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2020 · 223 posts · 89 votes
      1y

      @Nicholas L. I totally agree with this. New investor have little leverage. That's why I will pay a contractor to provide me with a detailed bid. Also, the contractor will buy all the materials including the finishes that I choose.

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nicholas L.:

    New investors are typically told - don't pay up front, try to buy your own materials, and put penalty clauses in the contract.  But... a lot of busy, reputable contractors won't agree to these terms with someone they've never done business with.

    Right. I would never do a deal like this. You'll lose every good, seasoned Contractor out there.
  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    @Nicholas L. Pretty much. New investors have the most risk because they don’t have established relationships with trusted vendors so they are trying to create business systems to protect themselves.

    The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that they are on a shoe string budget and need the lower value home, with a lower value rent roll to make sense with Capital improvements.

    Options are limited and all pose different forms of risk. Many invent ways to protect themselves against risk, but it cost them time.

    The fact is quality contractors don’t negotiate prices because they don’t have to. Hell we don’t even provide quotes for some potential clients if they are too picky in the quoting process, want to buy their own materials, or want to do “some” work themselves while we are on site.

    You have to find a vendor that meets your specific needs. If it’s all about price you may be better off GC ing the job yourself as well as buying your own materials, but any GC allowing that or suspect.

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  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:

    If it’s all about price you may be better off GC ing the job yourself as well as buying your own materials, but any GC allowing that are suspect.

    Very suspect. Ask yourselves - why would a good quality Contractor, with plenty of work, allow a client to essentially control an important part of their business? If just doesn't make sense...
  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:

    If it’s all about price you may be better off GC ing the job yourself as well as buying your own materials, but any GC allowing that are suspect.

    Very suspect. Ask yourselves - why would a good quality Contractor, with plenty of work, allow a client to essentially control an important part of their business? If just doesn't make sense...

     Usually for one of two reasons. 

    1. They are desperate for work

    2. They are inexperienced


    Both are scary!

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  • Corby GoadeBusiness Member
    Investor · Boise, ID · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    There really is no standard, this is part of the reason it's so hard to find good contractors. 

    I don't give my GC any type of worksheet. He gives me a bid with a detailed SOW and if there are any discrepancies about the scope we discuss those details. If the price doesn't work for me, we discuss how we can adjust the scope or the materials to get it where it needs to be. Once that's finalized, we both sign off and that is the price, regardless of what happens during the job. The only changes in price are if I ask for a change order. 

    I'd be wary about subs that are too flexible on pricing or terms- that's a sign of either no experience or a scam. Contractors who are confident about their process and pricing are typically experienced and professional. There are exceptions of course, but when you pick the wrong guy, it can be a really painful and expensive way to learn. 

    Best of luck!

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y

    And also, as many already know - NEVER take the low bid. Not ever. Don't even take the middle bid. Take one of the two highest bids.

  • Rental Property Investor · Somewhere over the Rainbow · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Joel Forsythe:

    I guess it is more of a scope of work I provide - it looks like below. I am more pointing out exactly what I want done by the contractor. I do have a special plumbing/electrician/AC guys I use. Just because I know them, trust them, and they do great work for me at great prices. If the contractor has some one they'd like to use - I'm open to it. But I do want to know who they are and a quote from them as well.

    For example: I'll point out what color paint I want the interior walls, trim/cabinets/doors etc. I don't calculate how much paint I'd need. I have a good idea by just looking at the house since I've done several. I don't do measurements, DIY or any of that. 

    I do ask about payment though because I won't pay upfront - learned this lesson early on - I will pay for materials or for 1/4th or 1/3rd of the job. This usually covers materials plus a little. In my eyes legitimate contractors should have some working credit/capital. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Somewhere over the Rainbow · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

    @Jeremy Horton You are trying to be your own GC while hiring a GC. That may work on a small job with a small/new GC, but generally this concept will fail. I would suggest you either run the project or hire a GC to run the project.

    However if you insist, the typical way to do this is for you to give the GC a 'wish list' of sorts. He will of course find other stuff that you can't see because he's a pro and you're not. Then have him give you a detailed proposal with a price attached to each phase of work. I would suggest paying in thirds. 1/3 up front should get him the materials and a little profit, same for the 2/3, of course hold the 3/3 until the phase has been completed and inspected (if applicable). This is fair to both parties.

    Once you do this a couple times, you will likely learn (the hard way) not to get involved in the materials. You don't just save a buck, but you become totally responsible for everything related to them. You pay for $10k worth of lumber. Who arranges for delivery and meets the truck? Who inspects the lumber to make sure it's not warped and stacked correctly? Who unloads it? Who makes it safe so it doesn't get stolen? You get my point. Same with appliances/tile/cabinets/etc. 

    You want to buy them, you accept all responsibility. Any GC who allows otherwise is a rookie or a fool, and you don't want either running your project.

     Ok - good deal - thanks. This is very close to how I'm doing it now. I should have described the spreadsheet I make as a scope of work. I do have it broken down into categories/stages of a reno. 

    I will give specifics - say if I'm replacing flooring - I will tell them the exact flooring I want to use, exact paint colors, siding material etc. There are some things I want done a certain way, some others I don't care how it's done ie: replacing rotted wood. 

    I don't get involved in the materials either - I will tell them if I want to use a certain material over another - ie hardiplank siding as opposed to wood/vinyl etc. I leave it up to them to source the material, schedule delivery - basically be responsible for everything material related. I also am not a contractor so I don't know exactly what they would need/prefer to use. It's just messy, in my opinion, to get involved in materials. 

    I have found that it's better the more detail I give - I do tell them exactly what should be done and I leave room for their suggestions. If I'm suggesting something dumb - I'd like to know and I'd like to know why so I can learn it and we can do it the correct way. Also if they are painting - they already have to scrape and sand/clean so I have them replace rotted wood and seal up all the doors/windows/eaves. If they come across something that I didn't mention - I like to know (ie: if there is some flashing missing - they're going to see it when they paint - I'd like to have the flashing repaired/replaced) I have zero problem adding in stuff that either needs to be done or will prevent a problem in the future, if that makes sense. 

    I do have my own electrican/plumber/HVAC guy. Why? Because I know and trust them and they have done great work at great prices. I leave an option here to the GC - they are free to use someone they know/like/does good work - but I like to know who it is and a quote from them. If I use my guys then I give them my guys numbers so they are free to meet/schedule etc with them. 

    I give them something like you see below - this is a list I make while the house is under contract, then I typically do a walk through with them as well (or 2 or 3). 

    So I guess in your case, you're not giving the contractor a scope of work/"wishlist". What information do you provide to them?

  • Member since 2021 · 88 posts · 80 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jeremy Horton:
    Quote from @Joel Forsythe:

    I guess it is more of a scope of work I provide - it looks like below. I am more pointing out exactly what I want done by the contractor. I do have a special plumbing/electrician/AC guys I use. Just because I know them, trust them, and they do great work for me at great prices. If the contractor has some one they'd like to use - I'm open to it. But I do want to know who they are and a quote from them as well.

    For example: I'll point out what color paint I want the interior walls, trim/cabinets/doors etc. I don't calculate how much paint I'd need. I have a good idea by just looking at the house since I've done several. I don't do measurements, DIY or any of that. 

    I do ask about payment though because I won't pay upfront - learned this lesson early on - I will pay for materials or for 1/4th or 1/3rd of the job. This usually covers materials plus a little. In my eyes legitimate contractors should have some working credit/capital.

    Jeremy, that looks great to show a serious contractor some effort, that you want to be thorough and you want both parties working towards the best detailed scope of work possible.

    Its also great that you have some subs you’ve learned from, learned to trust. The way you stated it is just right, its respectful to the GC, who is by contract the top of the liability chain for all sub work. There’s no one model for how a builder/remodeler is going to run their business, and they will have their own trusted team likely for their numbers they bid. Like you, if it were me, I only use my team. However, a good GC likes to hear about great tradesmen out there and I would absolutely get their info from you. If one of my “guys” is slammed, perhaps I get a bid from one of your guys if they are legit. Its really not a big deal. In the end, the contractor decides, it his contract.

    Payment and release schedules? I guess you’ll just have to see what the business owner provides. I come from a background where exceedingly detailed release schedule descriptions were used to identify progress payments through a project in an ebb and flow manner. Sure, a company has to be fundamentally capitalized to a degree, but its simply not black and white, and by no means am I going to front 6 figure projects for months on my dime if work is being performed.  I believe in fairness and transparent field progress points, and as a business owner, I made sure field productivity was tied to being paid for in a timely fashion according to my terms. Generalized release terms like you describe, 1/3 this 1/4 that or whatever, is rookie crap as far as I’m concerned, it shows they dont even know how to get paid properly.  
  • Rental Property Investor · Somewhere over the Rainbow · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Joel Forsythe:
    Payment and release schedules? I guess you’ll just have to see what the business owner provides. I come from a background where exceedingly detailed release schedule descriptions were used to identify progress payments through a project in an ebb and flow manner. Sure, a company has to be fundamentally capitalized to a degree, but its simply not black and white, and by no means am I going to front 6 figure projects for months on my dime if work is being performed.  I believe in fairness and transparent field progress points, and as a business owner, I made sure field productivity was tied to being paid for in a timely fashion according to my terms. Generalized release terms like you describe, 1/3 this 1/4 that or whatever, is rookie crap as far as I’m concerned, it shows they dont even know how to get paid properly.  

    Ok - I gotcha. Field productivity and timely payment is exactly what I was looking for. There's a balance here between me as an owner not getting burned by a contractor and the contractor not getting burned/fronting too much. That's exactly what I'm trying to find. It sounds like you work on a much bigger scale than myself but there's still some good takeaways that can be scaled down. 

    The contractor I have for this next rehab, he mentioned paying in phases, which I'm 100% good with. That's really what it is - paying for each section/phase of field productivity, if you will. 

    One other thing I forgot to mention  -I don't mess with materials. I think it's messy. It's easier for everyone if the contractor can order exact what he needs and be responsible for all of that. I do however mention what type of material I want to use - ie if we're replacing siding I'll mention hardiplank as opposed to wood/vinyl/metal. Same with flooring/paint - stuff where the color/material matters essentially. 

    So with you being a contractor is there anything you like to see from a client? Detailed list? Anything that makes it easier on you while being fair to the client?

  • Member since 2021 · 88 posts · 80 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jeremy Horton:

    So with you being a contractor is there anything you like to see from a client? Detailed list? Anything that makes it easier on you while being fair to the client?

    As a reno/remodel project, and it sounds like you might be dealing with a mostly field based GC (as opposed to a large operation with public office and showroom) you help by being prepared up front to go over selection based materials as soon as possible. Anything that has catalogue based design make and models will require your approval, with specific pricing and availability. Your project needs siding you said; but you will have to know what product you want, what design line, color. The GC may not have a care or preference, and you’ll hear the infamous “whatever you want”. On the flip side he/she may say they think X Brand is the best, or “we only install X Brand” but there will still choices you have to be ready to make. Decision making on Selections at the beginning will create more accuracy in the cost, but even more important, fast discovery if the product you want is out of stock, wont be in stock when you need it, or even discontinued. A novice mistake is putting off final selection decisions, which can lead to surprise cost differences and delays on the job site. Its not a slight to any professional tradesmen, but don't assume they are gonna serve up all your required decision options on a silver platter, you need to be ready to research products.

    Investors tend to make quicker decisions than primary home owners, so that’s already good common ground to build on.

    And lastly, this decision process gets muddy and confusing for people. Never let the final decision be verbal between you and the contractor.  Even though you may be trouble shooting live with the GC while he’s on the line with a supplier, bouncing between options, politely ask for an email summarizing the approved product details.  
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jeremy Horton:
    I do have my own electrican/plumber/HVAC guy. Why? Because I know and trust them and they have done great work at great prices. I leave an option here to the GC - they are free to use someone they know/like/does good work - but I like to know who it is and a quote from them.

    Well if you don't mind input from a grizzled old GC, it's not a good idea to have your own subs. A good GC will roll with his own team of trusted subs that he uses maybe 5-10 times a year. He will not need or want your guys (unless in a rare case his guys are busy/sick/etc.

    And you don't get to see my sub's bids, or any of my operating expenses. They are none of your business. Do you ask your local steakhouse how much they paid for that cut of prime rib? You should only be concerned about my final price to you, and more importantly, do you trust me to do the job properly?

    If you ever find a GC that will show you his costs, that means he is either a rookie, or he is desperate for work.

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jeremy Horton:

    I actually like getting detail like this from customers. It helps me to prepare my own (the real) SOW. (And I can hold you to what you asked for later). This is a good idea IMO..... :-)


    • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2020 · 223 posts · 89 votes
      1y

      @Bruce Woodruff so it is better to walk the project with the GC and explain to them what is needed and let them write the SOW?

    • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
      Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Tyrone Marson:

      @Bruce Woodruff so it is better to walk the project with the GC and explain to them what is needed and let them write the SOW?


      Absolutely! No disrepect to anyone...but the average customer, even a long-time investor, does not have the knowledge to write a good SOW. Not only should you know all of the construction terms and how everything fits together, but also a pretty good understanding of the Building Codes.

      Your previous advice was spot-on when you said - 

      "That's why I will pay a contractor to provide me with a detailed bid. Also, the contractor will buy all the materials including the finishes that I choose."


    • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2020 · 223 posts · 89 votes
      1y

      @Bruce Woodruff thank you for the feedback. This is very helpful. 

  • Real Estate Consultant · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 738 votes
    3y

    I think more people need to use form fillable SOW worksheets and back it up with written specs. I sold firetrucks for 3 years after leaving the fire service where I bought trucks as a Fire Chief. We had detailed specs. You should have line items for the budget, specify where it is at in the draw schedule and the ways and means for accountability. 

  • Zachary DealPro Member
    Lender · Member since 2023 · 465 posts · 425 votes
    1y

    If you're using a hard money lender I'd recommend having them complete the lenders scope of work spread sheet as that is what will be used for draw requests, etc.

  • Real Estate Consultant · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 738 votes
    1y

    RCIC. 100+ items starting with permits, ending with staging. Generates the contract and draw schedule as well. Ties it in with the VPI (virtual property inspection) inside of it and it's all you need from start to finish. Red Flag Checks, Checklist. 

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