Real Estate Broker · Pueblo, CO · Member since 2013 · 366 posts · 303 votes
Hi BP,
I'm interested in a SFR for myself and have noted the largest problem is the retaining wall pushing into the back of the house as seen below:
My question is has anyone dealt with this before? I sent this picture to a contractor but figured there are plenty of people on here who have experience with this as well, or have contracting experience. Backhoe would be tricky to impossible to get in this area I'd imagine due to slope of hill and tightness of alley between houses. But that's why I'm inquiring. The wall has not caused any visible damage to the inside of the house. Washer/dryer/HWT located directly inside that area.
Other than the wall, there are a couple pieces of missing gutter and fascia. The house is older (1900) but looks ok on the inside (previous rehab done), with some cosmetic repairs required.
I'd love to do VA financing on this one but that doesn't look like it will fly. Probably looking at conventional.
Real Estate Investor · atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 456 posts · 237 votes
12y
From the pic, it looks like you have 5' of dirt on the other side of the retaining wall. This isn't something for a homeowner to attempt on their own....it's a good way to get killed or hurt. I'd suggest you get several local contractors to come out and take a look at it. Check with you local government (without giving the address) to see if this is something that needs to be permitted or not. In most major metro areas, you will need a permit for this but I don't know your part of the world.
No one goes through the time and expense to build a retaining wall like that...so they had a reason for it. You want to know the reason before you take it down. Railroad ties usually last about 25 to 30 years. The stacking concrete retaining blocks you can get at home depot can be a good replacement. Ask some of the neighbors and see what they can tell you about it. You might want to post on thumbtack.com in your area to see what kind of response you might get from contractors.
Naperville, IL · Member since 2014 · 35 posts · 6 votes
12y
When I was in college I worked for a landscaper... Seen this before.
From the picture it looks like hand work: you'll need to disassemble the wall and remove earth. What is on other side of wall? Maybe you can use a bobcat with a digger attachment and dig from the other side?
Not sure on your budget but using the formed concrete retaining wall systems usually a good idea over the pressure treated stuff you see here. Each piece has a ridge on back of lower surface to "lock" the block into place and give you a natural setback to wall. More cost and you need to prepare soil/foundation on lower course but will be a much stronger and attractive wall.
Real Estate Broker · Pueblo, CO · Member since 2013 · 366 posts · 303 votes
12y
Mike - thanks for the reply. On the other side is a sloping hill filled with dirt. Don't believe any equipment will make it to this area of the house.
Is this a DIY project? At least the tear down part? I was thinking of letting the earth flow right into the back yard area and fill it in up to the house and create a back porch patio area.
Contractor · Elkton, MD · Member since 2014 · 11 posts · 0 votes
12y
If you decide to hand dig( which will take 10x longer then you think it will) make sure you bench the dirt back incase it collapses, you don't die/ get hurt. I would have a excavation company come look at it, expect to pay 80-150 for machine and operator per hour. They will have ideas for you if machines won't work as well
Real Estate Investor · atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 456 posts · 237 votes
12y
From the pic, it looks like you have 5' of dirt on the other side of the retaining wall. This isn't something for a homeowner to attempt on their own....it's a good way to get killed or hurt. I'd suggest you get several local contractors to come out and take a look at it. Check with you local government (without giving the address) to see if this is something that needs to be permitted or not. In most major metro areas, you will need a permit for this but I don't know your part of the world.
No one goes through the time and expense to build a retaining wall like that...so they had a reason for it. You want to know the reason before you take it down. Railroad ties usually last about 25 to 30 years. The stacking concrete retaining blocks you can get at home depot can be a good replacement. Ask some of the neighbors and see what they can tell you about it. You might want to post on thumbtack.com in your area to see what kind of response you might get from contractors.
Real Estate Broker · Pueblo, CO · Member since 2013 · 366 posts · 303 votes
12y
Andy - thanks for the great info. Your points combined with other discussions make me think the wall was the best they could do because the property line is not far from where that wall is. There is another house on top of the hill there behind that wall and its property comes down very close to where that wall is currently.
Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2012 · 176 posts · 103 votes
12y
If you excavate and rebuild the wall you'll have to take out enough soil to get 'deadmen' back into the soil to hold the wall. these run perpendicular to the face of the wall...this wall doesn't have any which is probably part of the reason it is leaning. If you didn't want to excavate for the deadmen they make duck-bill anchors that can be run into the slope to hold the wall in place.
Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
12y
Is the housing part that we see there an unpermitted addition? Because it sure looks like that retaining wall would have been difficult to construct with that structure there. And you say the property line is real close - what setbacks were required in this zoning area?
Multi-family Investor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2013 · 36 posts · 10 votes
12y
Hi there Chris, first of all, I wouldn't even consider attempting this by myself. There's no way you'd want to put in the time required to do something like this by hand. I could easily excavate that out from the back of the wall. I'd come in with a 50 size excavator and start pulling that dirt back. There's not too many places a decent operator can't get to with a mini-ex.
If you don't have any experience building retaining walls I'd STRONGLY reccomend finding a qualified contractor for this one. There's plenty who will give you free quotes. That whole hillside needs to be cut back in order to add either geotextile fabric or some sort of deadman holdback. The number one reason walls fail is hydrostatic pressure and if any water issues are not factored into the rebuild, you'll be right back to a bad situation again.
Bottom line have a couple of contractors give you a quote and factor that into your purchase price of the property.
Wish I could come by and give you a price but Alaska is a bit far.
Real Estate Broker · Pueblo, CO · Member since 2013 · 366 posts · 303 votes
12y
@Steve Babiak - good question.. It definitely has an addition feel to it, though I'm not sure if it was unpermitted...how could I find out? Use that to my advantage when negotiating? Or is this something you don't want to mess with? Also, not sure what A) you mean by setbacks in this zoning area, or B) if there were any.
@Alexander Lommel - Good to know with the mini-ex flexibility. Also, based off of what everyone is saying here, I'm no longer going to attempt this tear down, myself - I rather favor my life more. Thanks for the bottom line!
New to Real Estate · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2013 · 170 posts · 23 votes
12y
That slope above the wall is a moot point. That wall is already 6' from the looks of it, add the top of that hill in the picture and your looking at probably 12' to the bottom of that wall. That means you need to open up the top atleast 12' or more away from the wall depending on how your ground is. If its good ground you wont have to open it as wide, but it still needs layed back for safety. From the looks of it you might have to take out a few trees or bushes for this? It would be a serious cut. If you used a 5 ton hoe like Alex said, you could do it in a couple of cuts. Some operators might try it with one.
If access is an issue get two smaller excavators that fit through a 36" gate. Bench one machine down and pass the dirt off to the the other one above him to get the dirt out of the way.
The golden question in this job is if you can get a machine up there, and work a safe enough distance away from the wall to make that first cut. It will have to dig its way along the top of the wall to notch out the hill top to get up there.
SFR Investor · Member since 2011 · 198 posts · 61 votes
12y
If it were me I would weld a heavy steel tab like a 3" section of square tube to each steel post on an angle then about 6' away dig a 4' deep post hole and put a large timber or steel post in it and use my air over hydrolyic jacks to push the wall back.
This would at least get the wall away from the house for a few years until you can come up with another plan and the money to do it.
I just jacked a house up 6" that had sunk in one corner using four of these jacks, they lifted the place effortlessly.
I'm sure you can find someone to temporarily push the wall back and brace it. This would be the cheapest option. 80-100 tons of pressure should get it back in place.
Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y
Sorry if I missed this answer, but is the retaining wall also the property line? If so, you will be doing most of the work on the neighbor's property and will need their permission and hopefully get them to pay some.
My friend has a vacation house with a concrete block retaining wall in worse shape than yours. They have been putting off fixing it for years because the neighbor's septic field is close to the wall and could be damaged during the process.
Their plan when they do fix it is to use 12x12 timbers along with tie backs.
In your case, if you also own the property on the ther side, I would rather go with a step down system like a rice field where you work your way down instead of a wall. If you don't own that land, you are going to have to get the neighbor involved in this.
Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
12y
The local building codes and zoning map will identify what the required setbacks are. The setback is the minimum distance from the property line where you are allowed to build; don't forget gutters and any other overhangs affect the placement at ground level. 5 feet is probably what might be the number for that I'm going to guess. This could have pre-dated the zoning map and so it could be grandfathered as non-conforming.
The local building dept or code enforcement dept should be able to provide the info; it might even be on their website if they have one.
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
I have dealt with this type of thing in my day job. With a retaining wall of that height and the look of the structure, unless the value of the project is the land it will cost more to do it right than the house is worth. A 6ft high wall requires an engineering design. Sometimes contractors have the technical expertise to do it but if they do, they will require an engineer prepare the plans. To do the deadman approach you need access to lots of land on the back side of the wall. Probably about 2 times the height of the wall and then sloped back at a 1:1 until you catch daylight for safety.
The wall that is there was improperly designed/constructed. It lacks proper drainage behind the wall and that is why it's being pushed over. It will eventually take out the house. The force of the earth on the back side is so great that it may have bent the I beams used. Absolutely forget about pushing it back upright. The forces required to do that are enormous.
This is not a DIY. If you or the contractor you hire does not follow proper safety with the slope above the wall, the whole slope could fail and depending on the distance to the adjacent house it could slide down the hill.
The premade concrete block walls more than 3 ft high require geotextile fabric behind the wall for stability. Without that fabric the wall will fall over. Some brands of blocks can be stacked up to 4ft high without fabric. They are expensive. Also note that the first course must be buried at the toe of the wall. So in reality you get a little over a 2ft wall or you have to have the fabric. Once you add the required fabric and associated excavation to install the fabric, the block, and the drain rock the project becomes very expensive.
All of this is assuming the neighbor would let you work on their land and allow you to install structural components of the wall on their property permanently.
To do this right I would guess it could easily cost 6 figures.
Real Estate Broker · Pueblo, CO · Member since 2013 · 366 posts · 303 votes
12y
@Ryan Watson - There are no trees on the hillside, just smaller shrubbery.
@Rob K. - Based off the looks of it from the county website, the retaining wall looks to be at or close enough to the property line where working with the neighbor above would be mandatory.
Real Estate Broker · Pueblo, CO · Member since 2013 · 366 posts · 303 votes
12y
Now that I think about this more and more, it seems like a disaster waiting to happen, one way or the other. If it doesn't get fixed, the house caves, if it does get fixed, the other house falls down the hill. These homes are older (1900's) and I'm very suspicious of the house above. Drove up there to look at it and it is in pretty deplorable condition overall. The brown you see on the side is exposed brick from failing siding to give you an idea. It looks to be inhabited though because the snow was cleared from the sidewalk to the front door.
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
@Chris Pasternak I missed the whole "back part of the house" in your first post. I was thinking side lot line and assumed the wall would need to be much longer since lots are usually deeper than they are wide. I probably unnecessarily scared you with the costs in my first post.
My approach here would be to tear down the addition. You could then build a conventional reinforced concrete retaining wall fully on "your" property and backfill between the failed wall and the new wall. This would be much cheaper and safer than all the excavation required rebuild the wall in it's current location with the home right next to it. I'm not sure about your local costs but here I would guess about 25K by the time it's all said and done. You would probably lose about 6-8 feet of the back yard and the "addition" but if it was done right it should last several lifetimes.
Real Estate Broker · Pueblo, CO · Member since 2013 · 366 posts · 303 votes
12y
@Bill S. - You definitely scared me. However, your new numbers still scare me. I was hoping for under 10k. Additionally, I was hoping to keep the addition in tact considering it includes things such as the washer/dryer, and the only full bath.
New to Real Estate · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2013 · 170 posts · 23 votes
12y
Unless you can climb up there and get us a picture of what that top looks like, just going off the aerial view looks like you've got enough room to dig it back. if you had a contractor do it i doubt it would be 6 figures.
I'd do this project myself but then again im experienced with mass earth, so this project really doesnt look like that big of a deal. Unless that house out back really is sitting too close. I'd walk away from it then. Thats ridiculous how close those houses are.... just stupid
Real Estate Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2013 · 17 posts · 3 votes
12y
I'm in agreement with everything Bill said.
I would remove that addition.
Where I live any wall over 36" needs a permit and over 4' needs to be engineered. To do your job correctly I'm sure you would be at or over $10k. You wont be able to use any of those little Castlestone blocks sold at Home Depot...you'll need the bigger blocks that weigh about 80# each.
I'm in the process of having a retaining wall built 50' long by 3' high. With the excavation and haul away of 50+ yards of soil, Techo-Bloc, Geogrid, drainage system, etc.. it's costing me about $6k.
New to Real Estate · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2013 · 170 posts · 23 votes
12y
Bill S, wouldnt you think that building a wall infront of a failing wall would be adding to the mess? I'd be pissed if i found something like that, and knew i was loosing lot space because of a half *** gig like that.
The best thing to do is take it out and start over.
Real Estate Broker · Pueblo, CO · Member since 2013 · 366 posts · 303 votes
12y
Meeting a contractor at the site tomorrow. He projects over 10k, site unseen. He suggests a versa lok wall system. Mentioned tearing down old wall, excavating, and rebuilding wall