Flipper · Port Deposit, MD · Member since 2014 · 280 posts · 171 votes
Hi BP! I'm going to search the forums for similar discussions, just looking for some advise...
We're part way through our first flip and have had decent luck so far getting the right guys in place to do the job, except for the plumbing. We signed a work authorization for 6k with a plumber to complete 3 tasks. Fast forward a month and a half later, he has done about 70% of one of the three tasks and the relationship has soured. Multiple no call no shows, won't return calls, has a million and one reasons why he can't do the things he says he's gonna do... the last conversation with him ended with him yelling at my husband, blaming us entirely for all of his shortcomings, said he's "out of pocket from here on out because we've cost him the whole 6k" to do what he's done so far. I understand that we are inexperienced and therefore probably difficult to work with, but all of our other contractors have handled it professionally so far.
I guess the options here are try to repair the relationship and get him to finish the job or cut him loose and find someone better. I'm leaning towards the latter.
Here's where the inexperience shines through as well - I'm not sure what our options are regarding cutting him loose. Are we on the line for the full 6k even though he did less than half the work authorized? The quote was itemized - 2k for the line, 3k for the supply lines and water heater, and 1k for the finish.. he's only done 70% of the 3k item but claiming his costs have been 6k thus far (which is a load of crap.) Should we try and negotiate with him? Should we send him a check for what we feel we should pay him (heck I'll give him the full 3k) with a letter that says "if you cash this check you agree that this matter is settled"? What would you do?
Investor · Versailles, KY · Member since 2013 · 82 posts · 167 votes
11y
I've learned the hard way, by the time they are no-showing and you are wondering if you should fire them, you probably should have fired them long ago. Anyways, looks like you got great advice on this thread. DO NOT let your project be held hostage by flaky workers.
One thing I have learned. I never give anyone very much work, and never hint at more work being possible if they do a good job. I give a small piece of the project to a person. If they do well, I will give a little bit more. Once they start slipping it is easy to get rid of them and bring someone else in for the next portion. Even guys that I have used multiple times I still only parcel out small projects at a time. This seems tedious, but EVERY time I have given someone a larger project they stop being hungry for my work and quality or speed slips. So for a plumber I would start by the first and smallest step in the bathroom, and as he has proved himself and is wrapping that up, trickle out a little more work. I don't care if the sub doesn't like it that way. I am not here to be friends with them and they work for me. I started out trying to be nice to my thinking that if they like me they will work harder and not rip me and my project off. HAHAHA! No.
Let me rant on paperwork if you don't mind. Remember, as others have said, always have a paper trail, hard deadlines, DOCUMENT. I took a page from my days working in hospitals where we charted EVERYTHING, and if it wasn't on paper, it didn't happen. Let them hang themselves with paperwork. I have gone from using just a basic scope of work and independent contractor form to using a very detailed scope of work that includes agreed upon fines for missed deadlines and a messy jobsite, independent contractor form, contractor contact information sheet (address, email, phone), a "payment receipt form" every time I pay them they sign, a "change of work order," and a form that states that they understand all the forms they are signing. Every page is initialed by them so that we aren't playing that game of "I didn't see that". Photographs and text communication is your friend. I intentionally scare them with paperwork right up front. There are always 20 more subs to take this ones place if they wont sign, and I'll tell them that if they complain. I went from having nightmare workers with messy job site, wanting $$ for unfinished work, arguing about what costs are, to almost no problems. Best of luck! Hardest part of flipping is the subcontractors.
A lot of these people seem to not really know much about contract law, so I will give you my advice as a *Professional* contractor with really good reviews and word around the community.
The deal is this: he definitely sounds like a lousy contractor, but on the other hand, if your contract doesn’t have an end date, you can’t fire him for how long it takes. You can, however, demand that he work on it steadily until completion (except for weekends, holidays and emergencies) because that’s standard in contract law. I would notify him of him of this in writing, and to tell him that you expect him there steadily until completion until it’s done, even if he needs to do all the work himself if he can’t afford labor. Tell him that otherwise, you will need to terminate his contract for breach of contract. You have to give him notice though, especially since you don’t have a timeline, you can’t break contract yourself without first giving him a chance to “correct” his timeline. As the timeline wasn’t something you guys ever had agreed to in writing.
If he’s a decent contractor, he should be willing to fix that. And if he doesn’t, you will have a valid reason to cancel the contract due to his breach.
As for the final payment, you wouldn’t owe that IF you cancel correctly. You will have a harder time getting money back that you already paid him, which is why I tell people in general to not hire unlicensed, don’t hire companies with bad overall reviews, and don’t hire “the cheapest guy”. Also don’t have unrealistic expectations... But in your case, your expectations sound completely realistic and it sounds like your contractor is just a clown. One has to wonder why you hired him in the first place, and if you did your due diligence, Because his behavior is so out of the norm for a legitimate contractor, that I have to assume that you probably didn’t do your homework. (If you did- then seriously, my deepest condolences.)
NOTE: I’ve seen both good and bad contractors and also good and bad customers- I’ve had customers try to “fire” us when we were 90% done and had been working every single day for a week, bcuz our crew didn’t show up on only one day (a family emergency). They clearly were looking to save on the $4000 down payment and keep a 90% completed job; and maybe have a couple painters in to do the finishing touches. Nope. I let them know that couldn’t happen.
I’ve also seen bad contractors- I’ve had to fix painting and drywall jobs that were done absolutely horribly by other companies (probably unlicensed ones) and I’ve heard horror stories of people having contractors steal their down payment (again, probably unlicensed ones). I also had to sue a fellow licensed contractor (general builder) who hired us to do a full repaint of a house and then try to not pay us for a beautifully done job (also the builder had stiffed the plumber and an electrical company, their checks had bounced).
So all in all, I’ve seen good and bad customers and contractors, and honest and dishonest customers and contractors. At the end of the day, everybody needs to agree to the terms in writing, and both parties need to honor those terms and not try to get extra stuff for free for tiny little reasons. IE; a customer being like “oh you need to finish and paint my entire garage for free bcuz of “emotional distress!!”” All because the workers showed up ONE hour late one day (like seriously? Actually happened once), or a contractor who’s like “oh I need $2000 more to finish this job bcuz I didn’t realize it would be this much work” (not a valid reason at all my man).
People need To be HONEST. This goes for both homeowners and contractors. Frankly I’m really disappointed in EVERYONE lately. Nobody seems to have morals anymore. I’m lucky to even still have good workers... they’re getting harder and harder to find. True story
To elaborate, technically you can sue him for all of the money back if you cancel the contract correctly, the correct way due to his material breach of not coming regularly AFTER you communicate this to him AND tell him you’ll cancel the contract if he doesn’t do it (showing that you feel it’s a material part of the deal)....
However, suing him is probably going to cost you three grand ($3000) and he probably wasn’t given that so far.
if he had been given all $6000 by you, I might think about suing him, if I were you, but keep in mind that he might be a broke loser that has no money anyway, and the judge might be a liberal that feels bad about Poor people in general and doesn’t award you the “win” even if you’re morally and legally in the right. (Yes, sadly, a ton of activist judges like that exist nowadays- at least in my area). Double to that if he’s Latin, and the judge is also a minority. Just being 100% honest. Also, it will take your day in court with the lawyer.
You can always sue without a lawyer but it’s hard to do it correctly without legal counsel
To elaborate, technically you can sue him for all of the money back if you cancel the contract correctly, the correct way due to his material breach of not coming regularly AFTER you communicate this to him AND tell him you’ll cancel the contract if he doesn’t do it (showing that you feel it’s a material part of the deal)....
However, suing him is probably going to cost you three grand ($3000) and he probably wasn’t given that so far.
if he had been given all $6000 by you, I might think about suing him, if I were you, but keep in mind that he might be a broke loser that has no money anyway, and the judge might be a liberal that feels bad about Poor people in general and doesn’t award you the “win” even if you’re morally and legally in the right. (Yes, sadly, a ton of activist judges like that exist nowadays- at least in my area). Double to that if he’s Latin, and the judge is also a minority. Just being 100% honest. Also, it will take your day in court with the lawyer.
You can always sue without a lawyer but it’s hard to do it correctly without legal counsel
You are responding to a 4 year old thread. It has probably been worked out by now.