Firing a lousy contractor

NA Jones · 2015-03-27T04:46:21-07:00

Hi BP! I'm going to search the forums for similar discussions, just looking for some advise... We're part way through our first flip and have had decent luck so far getting the right guys in place to do the job, except for the plumbing. We signed a work authorization for 6k with a plumber to complete 3 tasks. Fast forward a month and a half later, he has done about 70% of one of the three tasks and the relationship has soured. Multiple no call no shows, won't return calls, has a million and one reasons why he can't do the things he says he's gonna do... the last conversation with him ended with him yelling at my husband, blaming us entirely for all of his shortcomings, said he's "out of pocket from here on out because we've cost him the whole 6k" to do what he's done so far. I understand that we are inexperienced and therefore probably difficult to work with, but all of our other contractors have handled it professionally so far.I guess the options here are try to repair the relationship and get him to finish the job or cut him loose and find someone better. I'm leaning towards the latter.Here's where the inexperience shines through as well - I'm not sure what our options are regarding cutting him loose. Are we on the line for the full 6k even though he did less than half the work authorized? The quote was itemized - 2k for the line, 3k for the supply lines and water heater, and 1k for the finish.. he's only done 70% of the 3k item but claiming his costs have been 6k thus far (which is a load of crap.) Should we try and negotiate with him? Should we send him a check for what we feel we should pay him (heck I'll give him the full 3k) with a letter that says "if you cash this check you agree that this matter is settled"? What would you do?

Randy E.

Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

11y

He hasn't completed any of the three jobs. I would send him a letter stating he has X days to complete all jobs and pass the city inspection or he forfeits all proceeds. If your contract is as you stated ("6k with a plumber to complete 3 tasks") then he is not yet due money because he has not yet completed any of the three tasks.

Honestly, at this point, I'm not sure I would want him to complete the job anyway. Maybe his work will be of a lesser quality, but you won't know it and pay him anyway. Then you'll be left with hiring another plumber later to correct his mistakes.

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NA Jones

OP

Flipper · Port Deposit, MD · Member since 2014 · 280 posts · 171 votes

11y

I agree that I don't want him to complete the jobs... so then what? :)

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Mike Baker

Contractor · Blackfoot, ID · Member since 2013 · 149 posts · 52 votes

11y

It doesn't usually cost anything for another plumber to come in and estimate what it would cost to finish the job. I agree with @Randy E. . I wouldn't really want him to finish the job at this point either. Who knows what he will leave in the walls as far as work goes. Sounds to me like he has some personal problems hes letting get in the way of work as well, based on his behavior.

No need to be rude. Have your husband let him know his services are no longer needed and you would like a copy of what the bill would be, as is, now. Make sure he itemizes the work as well so you know he's not trying to make up his lose on your dime.

It may be that he is actually a nice guy, who's just in a bad way right now, but that doesn't mean you have too pay for it.

3 Reply

Mike Robinson

Real Estate Agent · Stratford, CT · Member since 2015 · 5 posts · 1 vote

11y

Sounds like you have an unorganized contractor. Either he's paying retail for all the plumbing accessories or he bought too much product ( perhaps for his own house or relative) either way, I agree. Send a letter certified with return receipt demanding he finish by X date or he forfeits any further monies. Include if he's not finished by X date as well to cover your... Good luck but it sounds like you have the wrong guy to me. Remove emotion and you'll see he's not at your level.

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Randy E.

Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

11y

Did your contract with him specify a time frame? If so, and if he has exceeded the allotted time, you should be in the clear if you tell him you're moving on. Even if it doesn't specify a time frame, I would think (though, I am not a lawyer or giving legal advice) that you could do what I suggested above and write a letter informing him it has already been a long time and you are willing to give him ten days to complete all tasks, or else he forfeits all proceeds and you will hire a replacement plumber.

I had a similar problem with an electrician a couple of years ago. I had used him before and he did great work. The only problem was that he was sloooooooooowwwwww --- always giving excuses for why this came up or that came up and he couldn't do much work on a given day/week. The new job I needed him for had a tight timeline and I told him I needed it turned around very quickly. He agreed. Well, nearly a week later and he hadn't hardly started, though he had showed up nearly every day. Showed up, but presumably didn't stick around long. So, I hired a new guy, paid the old guy a hundred bucks (maybe two, I can't remember) and told him his work at that project was done. He was a little shocked to be let go, but that was that. I saw him later, doing a job beside a house I was checking out for possible purchase, and he had no hard feelings. Me neither. I told him I might even give him a call the next time I needed his skills.

You have to stand up. You're the boss, not him. It's your money on the line, not his. Unless it's a HUGE house/job, $6K will get you another plumber quick enough.

1 Reply

Rod F.

Investor · Rosebud, AR · Member since 2014 · 133 posts · 49 votes

11y

I had a similar problem. My Contractor(#1). After a month had done very little . I had called and chased him down so many times I just got tired of chasing him. I would go down and work on the weekends. he was supposed to be in and out during the week. I finally went to the better business bureau website. found one of the highest rated company's. called them, got a quote with drawings. They worked in amazing speed. Everything was done to code. Even when the inspectors showed up , he asked who was my contractor and he said everything was perfect. After the job I Had a line in the yard with roots in it. They recommended another sewer Contractor. Wow next day service. I swear I had to chase him down to pay him. Contractors you get what you pay for. A deal usually isn't a deal.

Lets just say contractor number one hasn't ever asked me for another job. We agreed on a price and I paid him and we went our separate ways.

It sounds like you have come to a point that I wouldn't trust him to finish the job. He might try to put a lien on property. document everything done, take lot of pictures, have drawings and quotes by a professional to finish work. No one want to go to court. but you might be able to agree on a walk away price. I would think even a judge would say something like you finished 50% you get paid 50%. looking at his quotes.

I am sure there is a regulatory board for his profession. sometimes just the mention of them gets action.

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Nick NoonPro Member

Chelmsford, MA · Member since 2015 · 124 posts · 70 votes

11y

@NA Jones

I took a construction law class in college when I was getting my bachelor's degree in construction management and advice would be this:

I am hoping you have a signed contract from him itemizing the scope of work that contractor is to perform with a dollar amount attached.....it sounds like you do. You are going to need to put him on notice like the others have said. I do this with my subcontractors all the time when they are not performing basically stating the reasons they have defaulted on their contract.

As far as money: You will have to pay the contractor a sum of money for services they have already accomplished. It doesn't matter if it was the worst work you have ever seen, the contractor has performed work which he is entitled to get paid. This does not mean you have to pay the full 6k, it just means you have to identify the scheduled value of the services performed which it seems like you have a breakout for. The courts will say the same.

Take as many pictures that you can of the work that has been completed and make sure the photo is date stamped. This will be your leverage of identifying the moneys owed to the contractor if this ends up in court.

As far as him saying that you have cost him 6K, it doesn't matter how much he spent or how many hours he has put into the work. You have a signed contract that stipulates a cost with scheduled values and the services that are to be performed. It's not your problem if he bid the job wrong.

It doesn't sounds like the relationship is repairable, and I don't think you want him doing the work on your property anyway. Cut ties, write him a check, and get him on his way.

Unfortunately this happens all the time. Contractors know they can get paid for work they have performed, even if the work is substandard and even if they don't finish the job. They are entitled to getting paid for work in place which is why it is important to do your research on contractors and get references and call them.

To me, it sounds like a classic alcohol or gambling problem.

This is why at our company we get payment and performance bonds on our contractors to eliminate our exposure.

Good luck!

1 Reply

Peter TverdovBusiness Member

Developer · New Brunswick, NJ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

11y

I would give him 70% of the $3,000 in a check with a letter. In the letter explain why you are paying that, and include pictures to show the work is only 70% finished (keep copies incase he wants to take you to small claims). In the letter I would include that you are terminating his contract, i.e. firing him, due to XYZ. Do not let him finish the work, that's it, he's fired. We play by your rules, you are the boss!

I am kicking myself for not firing a flooring contractor on one of my rentals last year. The guy took 4 weeks for a job that was supposed to take one week. I couldn't get a hold of him for days on end and he half-assed it completely. Now when I walk there are loose boards and some are stained different colors.

I highly doubt this plumber who is so upset with you is going to put effort into his remaining work. There are plenty of good contractors out there looking for work and who act professionally. Remember, THEY work for YOU. It's your way or the highway.

[email protected]732-289-3823

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J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes

11y

I would give him $3000 (eat the $900 to avoid having to argue over percentages) and be done with him. Get good documentation of what's been completed in case it goes to court, and move on.

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Will BarnardPro Member

Moderator

Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes

11y

Let me start with premising that you should double check your state laws regarding these types of situations and also contact the contractors licensing board. You can also get assistance from your RE attorney who you should have on your team.

That said, the language in your contractor agreement will determine what can be done here (I certainly hope you got a contract in writing?).

Regarding the advice given in the thread thus far, I would state that you do Not want to continue with this particular plumber and you should be getting at least two other bids from licensed plumbing contractors to bid the balance of work needed. Once armed with this info, you can better determine his to finalize with the current plumber. I typically agree with advice from J Scott, but in this case, I often take the road that I do not let contractors (or anyone else for that matter) take advantage of me or benefit when they have not earned it. With that in mind, I would not pay this contractor anything right now and check with my options and possible outcomes. The cost of litigation is always a threat and you want to avoid that and any contractor mechanic liens as delays and legal costs can build up fast. You always have the option of threatening and carrying through with a formal complaint to the licensing board. This often sows down a contractor trying to take advantage.

From the story here, it sounds as if he under bid the job and is not willing to perform the work without additional compensation. To that I say, good bye.

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Account Closed

Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 688 votes

11y

what you do really depends on what you feel to be your best course of action. 1. don't take anyone's bitching and complaining. ever. your money is good, and he chose to take the job. 2. contractors are a dime a dozen, don't be scared to cut him loose. I promise you there are 15 others right behind this guy. 3. In court, the terms of your contract, and who has lived up to those terms and to what extent are going to determine the outcome, should it come to that. don't fear court assuming your not being deceptive or fraudulent. 4. an incomplete job is owed nothing (assuming he was given a reasonable amount of time to complete said job). as long as his behavior earned his firing (disrespect, not showing up, deception, etc.) fire away and feel comfortable paying him zero (would you pay 70 percent of the price for 70 percent of a hamburger?)......as long as you can prove that he got himself fired and that you didn't fire him in an effort to get out of what was owed.

Personally, I would give him an ultimatum. show up and complete work entirely and correctly, or don't and get fired.

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NA Jones

OP

Flipper · Port Deposit, MD · Member since 2014 · 280 posts · 171 votes

11y

Just want to thank everyone for the input... it has been invaluable in the decision making process!! :)

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Charles May

Contractor · Olmsted Falls, OH · Member since 2012 · 24 posts · 7 votes

11y

@Heather Jones

I am a plumbing contractor, based on what's in your post pay him for what he has completed (based on your 70% completion) and cut him loose....it's your project and if you aren't happy with him it's up to you to tell him. It sounds like he under bid this job if he's telling you he's out of pocket at this point....which is NOT your fault!

That being said once you hire another plumber he may say that the last guy did not install/rough-in the fixtures correctly/up to code....In which case he may need to alter or remove what was already installed (so be prepared for that), call for an inspection (you did get a permit, right?) the inspector will tell you if what the contractor installed is correct....we've been called in to do this thing (finish another plumbers mess) quite bit.

A month and a half on a $6K job and he isn't done is a red flag. Next time ask how long the project will take, any contractor worth a damn knows those costs, as that's how he's coming up with the price for the job! How have YOU cost him anything...unless you were purchasing material and not having it on site when he came to work...other than that, I'm at a loss...

If you have any other questions feel free to ask.

Regards,

Charles May

1 Reply

Alex Applebee

Investor · Versailles, KY · Member since 2013 · 82 posts · 167 votes

11y

I've learned the hard way, by the time they are no-showing and you are wondering if you should fire them, you probably should have fired them long ago. Anyways, looks like you got great advice on this thread. DO NOT let your project be held hostage by flaky workers.

One thing I have learned. I never give anyone very much work, and never hint at more work being possible if they do a good job. I give a small piece of the project to a person. If they do well, I will give a little bit more. Once they start slipping it is easy to get rid of them and bring someone else in for the next portion. Even guys that I have used multiple times I still only parcel out small projects at a time. This seems tedious, but EVERY time I have given someone a larger project they stop being hungry for my work and quality or speed slips. So for a plumber I would start by the first and smallest step in the bathroom, and as he has proved himself and is wrapping that up, trickle out a little more work. I don't care if the sub doesn't like it that way. I am not here to be friends with them and they work for me. I started out trying to be nice to my thinking that if they like me they will work harder and not rip me and my project off. HAHAHA! No.

Let me rant on paperwork if you don't mind. Remember, as others have said, always have a paper trail, hard deadlines, DOCUMENT. I took a page from my days working in hospitals where we charted EVERYTHING, and if it wasn't on paper, it didn't happen. Let them hang themselves with paperwork. I have gone from using just a basic scope of work and independent contractor form to using a very detailed scope of work that includes agreed upon fines for missed deadlines and a messy jobsite, independent contractor form, contractor contact information sheet (address, email, phone), a "payment receipt form" every time I pay them they sign, a "change of work order," and a form that states that they understand all the forms they are signing. Every page is initialed by them so that we aren't playing that game of "I didn't see that". Photographs and text communication is your friend. I intentionally scare them with paperwork right up front. There are always 20 more subs to take this ones place if they wont sign, and I'll tell them that if they complain. I went from having nightmare workers with messy job site, wanting $$ for unfinished work, arguing about what costs are, to almost no problems. Best of luck! Hardest part of flipping is the subcontractors.

9 Reply

Jennifer Talcott

Brandon, FL · Member since 2014 · 55 posts · 13 votes

11y

@Alex Applebee You are my hero!

1 Reply

Account Closed

Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2015 · 183 posts · 22 votes

11y

@NA Jones:

... We signed a work authorization for 6k with a plumber to complete 3 tasks. Fast forward a month and a half later, he has done about 70% of one of the three tasks and the relationship has soured.. Multiple no call no shows, won't return calls, has a million and one reasons why he can't do the things he says he's gonna do...

If you have something in writing which clearly states what was to be done, by when and for what amount per milestone, I don't seem to see what the issue would be. Was the contractor supposed to finish this when he felt like it or in between vacations?

0 Reply

Michael Lauther

Investor · Hampton Bays, NY · Member since 2009 · 907 posts · 258 votes

11y

@NA Jones I did not read whether or not you paid any money up front and not withstanding the stipulations in your contract, in my experience, once calls are not returned and continued no shows occur it never ends well.

1 Reply

NA Jones

OP

Flipper · Port Deposit, MD · Member since 2014 · 280 posts · 171 votes

11y

Just to land the plane on this one... :)

We had paid a 1k deposit up front. Signed a contract on 2/24. The line item specified a 3-piece bathroom rough in, a kitchen sink/dishwasher rough in, and a new water heater installed for $3280. After several weeks of no call no shows, they came in and partially completed the bathroom - didn't touch the kitchen or install the water heater.

After a week or so of negotiation, we finally had to pay them an additional $1700 to end the contract and close the permit. We had no choice but to pay them so we could get another guy in to finish the job or else we'd have been tied up for months in court with these schiesters. If this were my personal residence, they wouldn't have gotten a dime but unfortunately we had to move forward and it was more cost effective to let him rob us. We then filed a BBB complaint (whooopeee) and posted scathing one-star reviews on various sites. Not that it helps, but I will let it be known to all of my colleagues, friends and family to stay far far away from Hometown Plumbing.

Final salt in the wound - we agreed to meet him at the permitting office with a certified check at 1 pm and he was an hour and a half late without calling. No respect for himself or other people.

It was a very expensive lesson on our part. There were so many red flags from the very beginning that we ignored because we had a "good feeling" about the guy. Lesson one - THIS IS BUSINESS. Don't rely on "good feelings". Lesson two - don't put up with no call no shows or make excuses for lousy contractors. We could have saved ourselves a lot of money, time and frustration had we fired him before he started any work. Lesson three - have a tighter contract and try to get the permits in the name of the property, not the contractor, if possible.

Thanks everyone!

1 Reply

J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes

11y

Originally posted by @NA Jones:

After a week or so of negotiation, we finally had to pay them an additional $1700 to end the contract and close the permit. We had no choice but to pay them so we could get another guy in to finish the job or else we'd have been tied up for months in court with these schiesters.

Not sure why you paid them anything additional?

As the owner, you can cancel the permit and bring in another contractor to pull a new permit and finish the job (at least this is how it's worked in every jurisdiction I've ever worked in).

Worst case, he files a lien. You can pay a bond to remove the lien, and then you fight it out in court. If you win the case, you get your bond money returned; if you lose the case, the contractor gets the money.

I wouldn't have paid these guys a penny more than I had to...

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Tony Gunter

Investor · Canton, GA · Member since 2014 · 728 posts · 500 votes

11y

@Alex Applebee

Alex,

Would you have some of your materials to help keep contractors in line to share? Sounds like some great materials to stay organized and on top of these guys. Maybe you could post them in the file place.

Thanks.

1 Reply

NA Jones

OP

Flipper · Port Deposit, MD · Member since 2014 · 280 posts · 171 votes

11y

@J Scott

That's ... both interesting and disappointing. We were told by both the Director of Building & Zoning for the town and our GC that the contractor who pulled the permit had to close/cancel it. Something about being the only "security" a contractor has... we didn't understand it either but didn't have the balls to fight with the building director. I don't know if it's the town we are in or if we were just fed a line of bullsh*t, but either way it's good to know for next time ... thank you!

0 Reply

J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes

11y

Contractors get fired, walk off jobs and disappear all the time. If they didn't let owners change/cancel permits, there would be millions of jobs around the country that had open permits and could never be finished... :-)

Not to mention, contractors could use the threat of not closing a permit to extort you for more money (or anything else) without having to go through the court system (like they have to do with a lien). That doesn't make sense...

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1 Reply

Manolo D.

Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes

11y

Originally posted by @Alex Applebee:

I've learned the hard way, by the time they are no-showing and you are wondering if you should fire them, you probably should have fired them long ago. Anyways, looks like you got great advice on this thread. DO NOT let your project be held hostage by flaky workers.

One thing I have learned. I never give anyone very much work, and never hint at more work being possible if they do a good job. I give a small piece of the project to a person. If they do well, I will give a little bit more. Once they start slipping it is easy to get rid of them and bring someone else in for the next portion. Even guys that I have used multiple times I still only parcel out small projects at a time. This seems tedious, but EVERY time I have given someone a larger project they stop being hungry for my work and quality or speed slips. So for a plumber I would start by the first and smallest step in the bathroom, and as he has proved himself and is wrapping that up, trickle out a little more work. I don't care if the sub doesn't like it that way. I am not here to be friends with them and they work for me. I started out trying to be nice to my thinking that if they like me they will work harder and not rip me and my project off. HAHAHA! No.

Let me rant on paperwork if you don't mind. Remember, as others have said, always have a paper trail, hard deadlines, DOCUMENT. I took a page from my days working in hospitals where we charted EVERYTHING, and if it wasn't on paper, it didn't happen. Let them hang themselves with paperwork. I have gone from using just a basic scope of work and independent contractor form to using a very detailed scope of work that includes agreed upon fines for missed deadlines and a messy jobsite, independent contractor form, contractor contact information sheet (address, email, phone), a "payment receipt form" every time I pay them they sign, a "change of work order," and a form that states that they understand all the forms they are signing. Every page is initialed by them so that we aren't playing that game of "I didn't see that". Photographs and text communication is your friend. I intentionally scare them with paperwork right up front. There are always 20 more subs to take this ones place if they wont sign, and I'll tell them that if they complain. I went from having nightmare workers with messy job site, wanting $$ for unfinished work, arguing about what costs are, to almost no problems. Best of luck! Hardest part of flipping is the subcontractors.

I wish all clients were as professional as you. You know what you want and we are on the same page, or should i say pages! I love it. 1 project of mine (2 weeks) is always 40+ pages of reporting. daily reports, pictures, communications, change orders, variation orders, un/conditional waiver for progress/final payment, checklist, punchlist, closeout, turn-over, guarantee, etc. I might be overkilling it but it protects me. lol.

1 Reply

Manolo D.

Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes

11y

Originally posted by @NA Jones:

@J Scott

That's ... both interesting and disappointing. We were told by both the Director of Building & Zoning for the town and our GC that the contractor who pulled the permit had to close/cancel it. Something about being the only "security" a contractor has... we didn't understand it either but didn't have the balls to fight with the building director. I don't know if it's the town we are in or if we were just fed a line of bullsh*t, but either way it's good to know for next time ... thank you!

No way this is happening, and no way that you needed to pay a "settlement fee" of some sort, that's a small court claim, that's not a lengthy process at all. Assuming this were true, another avenue that you could do next is, just pull the permit thru an owner/builder, just authorize your GC with an authorization letter from your entity, they might need for that to be notarized. Ask for a specific code that says this next time. The law doesn't say that, at least CA law, and this might be the most stringent state when it comes to something like that, being a consumer/employee friendly state.

0 Reply

Davon Lowery

Investor · Whitttier, CA · Member since 2015 · 405 posts · 110 votes

11y

@HeatherJones

thank you for sharing your story. Great advice from everyone in the thread, I thank you all as well for such detailed lessons.

Often times costly mistakes are the most memorable and therefore preventable in the future.

In CA GC's are legally allowed to put a lien on your HM for services rendered and not being compensated, no matter if the work was incomplete or incorrect; unless articulated in your notorized contract.

You don't want that hassle, especially if your flipping the property to an investor or especially not if to an "owner occupied" buyer. The investor would be scared away by the cloud on the title and the "occupiers" would be confused and move on.

I generally have a problem with remembering to set bench marks for my GC's, this lesson will help me.

Great attitude Heather.

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Firing a lousy contractor

Firing a lousy contractor

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