Roofer says there are 8 existing roofs on a 60-year-old property

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Roofer says there are 8 existing roofs on a 60-year-old property

Logan AllecBusiness Member
Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes

...and wants to charge extra for each one.  Property is in Southern California just outside the LA city limits--generally mild weather conditions.  I find it unbelievable that there could be these many roofs on a building built in 1955, especially considering that the previous owner (who held the property since 1997) did not put new roofs on (the roofer does not know this), but then what do I know.  Here is his explanation:

"What I think happens is you're out here in the sticks, and when people have leaky problems they just they just roof over it each and every time.  The flat deck was an ongoing problem, and to fix it each time they roofed over the top so by doing the math thinking every 6.25 years they would roof over the top until now."

Is this possible?  Is there any way to independently verify that there are in fact 8 roofs sitting on this property?

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Michael ClantonPro Member
Contractor · Monroe, NC · Member since 2015 · 44 posts · 22 votes
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@Logan Allec, as others have said, it is very hard to believe that there would be 8 layers of shingles on any roof, especially if you think it would've been since 1997. Most roofers would not (or should not) install that many layers for several reasons: voided shingle warranty, accelerated shingle deterioration because of the layers underneath, and constant callbacks for nails backing out of the shingles due to the nails being too short to grab wood roof deck under all the shingles. 

The easiest way to roughly check how many layers of shingles are on your roof is to get a ladder and look at the edges of the shingles at the gable ends (if you have gables, if not anywhere will do) of the house. Theoretically, for a 8 layer roof, you would count about 9 layers of shingles at the edge. The first layer is called a starter and is only installed around the outside perimeter of the roof. Depending on what type asphalt shingle it is, the total thickness of roofing visible at the edges would be 2-2.5 inches or less for 8 layers. 

I would get on the roof with him and get him to show me exactly how he is coming up with that many layers, and if you're still not sure, get another roofing contractor to verify. Hope that helps!

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  • Joel W.
    Investor · Eastlake, OH · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 85 votes
    11y

    Go take some layers off of a corner and look??

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  • Michael S.
    Flipper · Portland, ME · Member since 2015 · 24 posts · 11 votes
    11y

    You should be able to tell from ground level. I'm not sure what type of roofing it is but in my area (northeast) the most common is asphalt shingle. If there were 8 layers of asphalt shingle it would be 4-6 inches thick and you could see that from the ground. It is code here that you can only put 2 layers of shingle on. I wouldn't be surprised if you had a similar code out there. Once it gets past 2 layers it must be stripped down. They do charge extra for this stripping off the 2 layers. I have never heard of 8 layers or even 4 or 3. It seems excessive.

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  • Dana WhickerPro Member
    Investor · Fernandina Beach, FL · Member since 2014 · 557 posts · 374 votes
    11y

    If there is a flat section of the roof of any significant size, there absolutely could be 8 layers of roofing material.

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  • Logan AllecBusiness Member
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    Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
    11y

    Thanks, all.  To @Dana Whicker's point, yes, I am having the flat section of a roof replaced as it is causing problems.

    The roofer is at the job site right now and has already begun pulling off the old roofs, and I unfortunately am not there to see it as I got called into work.  Is there any way that the roofer could verify to me that there were in fact 8 roofs on that building?  He has a camera phone and could send me pictures, but what would I ask for?  Or am I stuck just taking his word for it?

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  • Brian Fouts
    Investor · Fall City, WA · Member since 2013 · 200 posts · 63 votes
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    Never heard of that many layers on a roof before.  Is it single ply, torch down?  Perhaps in that case, but the weight of that much roofing would be causing other issues i would think. 

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  • Hattie Dizmond
    Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
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    @Logan Allec

    For asphalt shingles, 2 previous roofs + a new roof = 3, which is the most any respectable roofer will put down.  

    Here in Texas, roofing is not a licensed area, so code is lax.  Plus, if it's in the county - translate rural, there is generally no code enforcement, permitting or inspection.

    With that said, if you're dealing with a flat roof, or even a section of the roof, there's no asphalt shingle that should have ever been applied to it.  The minimum slope for an asphalt roof is 2/12 (rise over run) or 9 degrees.  That's minimum.  Anything below that WILL fail, because the water will back up under the overlapping shingles.  2/12 is minimum, 4/12 and above should be considered normal.  The steeper the roof on an asphalt install, the less likelihood of roof failure.  However, you reach a point where you start paying a premium for the installation, as roofers have to use jacks & tethers to stay on the roof.

    Since a good quality, well installed flat roof system - even those installed 20-years ago - should have had a usable lifespan of 20-years (modern systems, well installed, should be expected to last 30 - 40 years), I would seek a new roofer.  And, modern flat roof systems consist of a membrane to waterproof the roof and not the layered felt & hot asphalt.  Regardless, the idea there are 8 layers of roofing on either a flat or pitched roof is a little difficult to believe.  I would get another roofer to take a look.

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  • Chris Field
    Investor · Milford, CT · Member since 2015 · 200 posts · 69 votes
    11y

    Go jump up on the roof and take a look. I have run into this a number of times, although 6 is my personal best. 

    We took an amazing amount of material off the roof on an old house, I want to say it was about 12sq and we took off 18k pounds of material! 

    Its a lot of labor so expect to pay more.

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  • Bennett D.
    Project manager · Wappingers Falls, NY · Member since 2015 · 3 posts · 3 votes
    11y

    That sounds very fishy... 

    Commercial roofing and flat roofing have different layers that work as one roofing system, it sounds like he might not know what he has gotten himself into and is trying to scare you into paying extra for his lack of knowledge of the roofing system. 

    Borrowed from: http://lydickwf.com/products/built-up-roofing-syst...

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  • Blake Peery
    Merritt Island, FL · Member since 2015 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    11y

    Sounds like a single ply roof. Leaks can miserable to find, and they are very cheap. The would agree that the weight of any other roof would cause some other issues.

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  • Logan AllecBusiness Member
    OP
    Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
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    Thanks, all.  So it sounds like it might be a little strange for there to be 8 roofs on there.  So what should I do now?  I have not seen the job they did today (which involved tearing off and hauling away all of these supposed 8 roofs) as I got called to work, and the roofer is coming back tomorrow to finish the job.  How do I even start negotiating with him?

    Also, note that he is only replacing the flat portion of the roof.  He claimed that the pitched portion of the roof has 8 roofs on there as well.  I should be able to see 8 roofs on the pitched portion of the roof, right?  Thing is, though, I don't know what I'm looking for as this is my first time dealing with roofs.  Will it be blatantly obvious to me such that I can just count 8 roofs on there?  Or is it possible that something that looks like multiple layers isn't actually multiple roofs?

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  • Jim Keller
    Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2014 · 351 posts · 220 votes
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    Originally posted by @Logan Allec:

    Thanks, all.  So it sounds like it might be a little strange for there to be 8 roofs on there.  So what should I do now?  I have not seen the job they did today (which involved tearing off and hauling away all of these supposed 8 roofs) as I got called to work, and the roofer is coming back tomorrow to finish the job.  How do I even start negotiating with him?

    Also, note that he is only replacing the flat portion of the roof.  He claimed that the pitched portion of the roof has 8 roofs on there as well.  I should be able to see 8 roofs on the pitched portion of the roof, right?  Thing is, though, I don't know what I'm looking for as this is my first time dealing with roofs.  Will it be blatantly obvious to me such that I can just count 8 roofs on there?  Or is it possible that something that looks like multiple layers isn't actually multiple roofs?

     Logan 

    Tell him you are "shocked" that the previous owners would have put 8 layers of roofing material on one roof and ask him how much each layer would cost you extra then ask what it normally cost him to strip one roof. 

    Then call a roof demolition company they should be easy to find and ask them to bid it. Once the roof is clear subtract all the original roofers fluff and tell him he has a job you will save thousands is my guess

    Good luck

    Jim

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  • Michael ClantonPro Member
    Contractor · Monroe, NC · Member since 2015 · 44 posts · 22 votes
    11y

    @Logan Allec, as others have said, it is very hard to believe that there would be 8 layers of shingles on any roof, especially if you think it would've been since 1997. Most roofers would not (or should not) install that many layers for several reasons: voided shingle warranty, accelerated shingle deterioration because of the layers underneath, and constant callbacks for nails backing out of the shingles due to the nails being too short to grab wood roof deck under all the shingles. 

    The easiest way to roughly check how many layers of shingles are on your roof is to get a ladder and look at the edges of the shingles at the gable ends (if you have gables, if not anywhere will do) of the house. Theoretically, for a 8 layer roof, you would count about 9 layers of shingles at the edge. The first layer is called a starter and is only installed around the outside perimeter of the roof. Depending on what type asphalt shingle it is, the total thickness of roofing visible at the edges would be 2-2.5 inches or less for 8 layers. 

    I would get on the roof with him and get him to show me exactly how he is coming up with that many layers, and if you're still not sure, get another roofing contractor to verify. Hope that helps!

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  • Logan AllecBusiness Member
    OP
    Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
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    Thanks, all.  So are y'all telling me that the roofer should have been able to tell me exactly how many roofs were on there when he did his estimate?  Because when he did his estimate, the roofer said, "I don't know how many roofs are on there, but I'm going to have to charge you an extra $400 per roof beyond two roofs."  Based on conversations with other roofing contractors, I was expecting there to be probably three, maybe four, and at max five roofs up there, which would be an extra $400 - $1,200, and I was prepared for that.  But "eight" additional roofs at a cost of $2,400?  Did not see that one coming.

    And now the work has already started--and is essentially done since the roofers worked all day today--and I'm not sure how to proceed.  I'll ask him tomorrow to show me these layers on the pitched portion of the roof.  If there certainly are these layers on the pitched portion, then I'll believe him.  I just want to make sure I know what I'm looking for/at.  I am very naive as I have never dealt with roofs before.  Does anyone have a photograph they could upload of what exactly these multiple layers of roofs would look like?

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  • Manolo D.
    Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
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    Just like any other overlay, either paint, roof, or whatever, you can demo sections have him picture it by layer, or witness it yourself, although i prefer videos rather than climbing. i haven't heard of anything close to it, 3 layers is the most I did.

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  • Michael ClantonPro Member
    Contractor · Monroe, NC · Member since 2015 · 44 posts · 22 votes
    11y

    Here is pic of a roof with 3 or 4 layers of shingles I found on the web. This is a side view shot from what looks like the gable end of a roof. Yours, if it has 8 layers, would be about twice as thick as that. 

    If your roofer can tell that the pitched portion of the roof has 8 layers on it, I would think he should have been able to do the same for the flat portion using the same methods, unless this area had no exterior edges because of where it was positioned on the roof.

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  • Logan AllecBusiness Member
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    Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
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    Thanks, @Michael Clanton.  That is very helpful.  He is going to show me what he sees in these "layers" tomorrow morning.

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  • Manolo D.
    Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
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    Logan, he should have pictures to prove his charges. Anyway, you know how many guys worked today and tomorrow, plus dumping fee, then you will get how much he spent on labor and dump, if he charges you 2400 for 2 men in 2 days, then you are paying too much, if it is 6 men in 2 days, you're paying too low. Without the proof of the layers, you two are in limbo and you should go with time and material.

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  • Jordan Dahl
    Flipper/Investor · Hilliard, OH · Member since 2014 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    11y

    One thing to consider in the future when working with contractors is to make your expectations known up front.  In other words if there are any issues that arise outside of your initial walk through with a GC that will have a significant impact on your budget(you can even set a $ amount), make sure they know it is up to them to provide you with the necessary information for you to make a decision, ie. pictures, furthermore they should not proceed without your approval.  Of course you have to be readily available to operate this way since you don't want to hold up the process any more than necessary,  but once you have established a relationship with a contractor who knows how you operate you can build a more trusting relationship.  Good luck my friend!

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  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y

    @Michael Clanton good post! The old trick of showing the starter tab as a layer. Listen to Michael on this. Other good comments too.....

    Asphalt singles shouldn't be on a flat roof to begin with, I don't think anything lower than 2.5 /12 pitch would have any warranty. Last one I did I used a PDM glue and torched down.   

    Hope the decking is still good!

    @Logan 

    @Logan Allecundefined

    You can't be naive about construction techniques and be in real estate for very long, there are rip offs out there. 

    $400 a layer does sound high, but you haven't mentioned how many squares or the size or the job either. :)

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  • Rich N.Pro Member
    Investor · Haverhill, MA · Member since 2015 · 761 posts · 328 votes
    11y

    isn't this a bit late to ask this question?  Reading the thread sounds like you already hired him for the job.  What did other roofesr give as their estimate ?

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  • Logan AllecBusiness Member
    OP
    Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
    11y

    The lower I go, the more difficult it is to count.  But it certainly does look like a lot of layers on this thing.  Does that look like 8 layers to you more experienced folk?

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  • Logan AllecBusiness Member
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    Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
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    @Manolo D., to your point, the roofer has 3 worker bees and then himself, who oversees and does some minimal amount of labor throughout the day.  Two days of work for $7,000.  Does this sound a bit steep?

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  • Brian Fouts
    Investor · Fall City, WA · Member since 2013 · 200 posts · 63 votes
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    What does the $7k get you?  Depends on the SF of roofing, if it includes material, etc.

    Hard to tell from that video since it doesn't pan out and look at the rest of the roof.  I don't see 8 layers, but definitely more that would be expected.  

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  • Manolo D.
    Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Logan Allec:

    @Manolo D., to your point, the roofer has 3 worker bees and then himself, who oversees and does some minimal amount of labor throughout the day.  Two days of work for $7,000.  Does this sound a bit steep?

     A dumpster costs around $600 and that's the really big 40' x 6', I don't think you could fill 20% of that, but still let's put it at 400-600 (first dumpster has expensive delivery fees) and two days with 4 workers is around 8 man-days (4 men times 2 days), you're paying like 800/day/person (800/man/day * 8 man-days = $6,400 + $600 dumpster), you tell me, is that steep? are you geting paid 800/day? :)

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