My flip took 11 months...what went wrong?

My flip took 11 months...what went wrong?

Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
Ok so that's a bit of a loaded question because I have a good idea as to what we did wrong along the way. The reason I pose the question this way is so that I can get some unbiased, candid feedback regarding this project so I can use it to move forward in the right direction. Here is the long story short. Please let me know what you would do differently moving forward to make sure a standard flip doesn't take 11 months. We purchased a foreclosure that had been sitting for about 8 months for $90k. The property needed pretty much everything. We took the second floor to the studs and rearranged some walls to add a bath and make a bedroom for functional. We redid all the plumbing and electric. New carpeting and some hardwood throughout. New kitchens new baths. The home was 2200 sq ft had 4 beds and 2 baths. We purchased in September 2015 and sold in August 2016. The renovations were done by a handy man/contractor. He knows how to do most things, but for example is not an expert carpenter,master plumber etc. He is paid by the hour and we pay for all supplies. If something is needed, he picks it up at Home Depot and we reimburse him. His hourly wage is low compared to what most contractors would charge, but he is guaranteed the work, and in return we get cheap labor. He also worked other projects along the way, so he wasn't at the property all day every day during this time. In order to align our goals, we gave him an incentive of 1/3 the net profit when it was all said and done. This way, he would try to reduce costs where possible to maximize profits. After is was all said and done the budget he gave us when we were analyzing the deal went $30k over budget. A majority of that was due to the length in time in took and labor costs were more than expected. The contractor is also a friend of my partner, and the way he sees it is that for when he went over budget, he was only having to pay 2/3 for the labor because the contractor would have received the 1/3 profit anyway. So he figured he was actually hurting himself by going over budget. Iv suggested maybe trying a new contractor to see if we could get a better deal, but his response is that at his current hourly wage he's cheaper than we would get anyone else to do it. The work when it's completed is pretty good. It's not perfect, but it is competed, safe, and passes a home inspection and code inspection. We pay cash for the home so there are no holding costs on the money. The taxes were about $3200 for the year, so holding costs altogether were not significant. The project in the end was a success, the profit after fees and costs was $20k, but partly due to the market rising and the ARV went up $20k from what we thought it would sell for when we bought. We would have broke even had we sold for the number we all thought it was worth going in. We only have enough funds to do one project at a time using this method because we pay with cash, and then pay for all materials and labor as it occurs. What would you do? What did we do wrong? I know there is a better way, but what is it? Looking forward to a lively debate. Thanks!
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Real Estate Agent/Investor · Peoria, AZ · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
9y

11 months is an awful long time. I've seen brand new houses built from scratch in 4-6 months. As Tim Chapman stated, you should consider subbing more work as holding and opportunity costs add up over time. Also learning rehab costs will help you reduce overages. Unless there were hidden problems (HVAC, asbestos, termite damage etc.), 20k over budget shouldn't really happen unless you either changed the plans as you went along or didn't have a solid enough plan to begin with. Though you saved money by using cheap labor, you could have possibly done 2 or 3 houses in that 11 months so it may have actually cost you profits. 

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  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 314 posts · 153 votes
    9y

    We do live in different markets. You'll frequently see all cash offers with very few contingencies here. I'm not sure it's even possible to buy something with FHA; I don't think sellers will look at those offers.

    All I'm saying here is that 1/ you underestimated the ARV and 2/ you left some money on the table. It (probably) still would have sold in weeks if the market is as hot as you claim if you had added another 5-10k.

    My previous post was unclear: you don't want it to sit for months, I meant you knew after 1-2 months that the market was headed up and it was worth more than you had thought. It's not like the market did something unexpected in those 11 months you held onto the property. 

    Of course, if you say the market improved after 6 months and you couldn't have gotten it sold for that due to the comps after 2-3 then my point is invalid. You had said previously that it was worth ~10% more than your expected ARV to begin with.

  • El Cerrito, CA · Member since 2015 · 257 posts · 129 votes
    9y

    @William C.

    Thank you for posting up this question, I've enjoyed the replies. One question I haven't seen on here yet is in regards to the profit sharing you gave to the handyman. Was that a requirement for him? Seems to me that if you're paying him by the hour then he already got his share. If you hired another contractor, would you openly offer 1/3 the profit?

    Now I know there are several things here that we don't know but I'm wondering if your handyman would have done the work and finished in the same amount of time for no share of profit? That would have yielded you ~$30k. 

    Maybe if you cherry pick some responses from here and show them to your partner it will help?

  • Rental Property Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 342 posts · 123 votes
    9y
    I've heard of bonuses for contractors but an even partner share (33%) seems kinda crazy to me even with lower labor wages. Is it common to give a gc a even split of profits? I would rather do a few k bonus for a project completed on time. Personally I would never pay by the hour, any pro contractor should be able to bid jobs and give a quote, not estimate. If you can run with one on your own you might want to think about doing the next one solo without a partner and find you own gc or subs. I don't want to put any bad ideas in your mind but how much do you trust the partner? Any chance he took advantage with the help of the gc?
  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 314 posts · 153 votes
    9y

    From his other posts, the partner was the money partner so...no. No chance. Plus, he got real estate commissions on the buy and sell, so he probably made out better than his money partner.

  • Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    I had similar issue, did a flip, my nephew was contractor that hired subs, he had to many other side jobs to concentrate on my project. At first the energy was there, let's rip every thing apart and although I had a general idea of budget and costs it ran over at just about every turn. The biggest mistake was the electrician we hired,, original bid was 4 K and it ran 10 to do the work. I was so relieved once the job was finished I would have given the house away just to get out from under it 15 month later. 

    We purchased for 191, put roughly 180 K in and basically sold for 430 so made about 40 K, it sold in 10 days. 

    Live and learn, if I ever do another project I'd have the cash available to buy and for rehab, I thought I had the cash but 1/2 way through the project the cost were ridiculous and had to take a loan out to complete the job.  My trust in my contractor nephew was shattered. Our business contract became a mute point. Our initial time frame of 6 months went in a snap and 1/2 of the landscape and exterior finishes couldn't be completed in winter so it dragged on till spring. ( we took out a in ground pool ). 

    The deal we had was, we were going to split the profits, I put up the funds he was supposed to do the work. My idea of work and his were different. So the split worked out quite different in the end. 

    My advice get bids, set up demo, have extra subs to back up the guy that doesn't show because he decided to start a different project, and make sure the permits are pulled and checked off, and don't cut a final check till the work is done. And get the radon test done prior to listing.. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y
    Doug Woodville great point. Your right, wecould have gotten away with not lying the bonus. We added the bonus on this project to try to keep our goals aligned. The plan was "supposed" to be to share profits, or hourly, not both. As I mentioned before, my partner tried to "sell" me on the fact that the $30k in extra labor really only cost $20k because 1/3 was his portion of the profit. I claimed he gets 100% of the labor which is now far more than the profits so he should no longer get any of the profits. Michael J. No, he did not screw me in anyway and I know that for a fact. We are moving on from this GC. I did make commissions on the front and back end, so the deal was a little better than the number show.
  • Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y
    Wes Brand your absolutely right with your last post about the markets, and I understand what you mean now. To be honest we actually had one buyer who didn't get accepted come back and offer more money after we were already under contract so that proves your point. That original buyer had a chance though. They low balled us. We countered and they had about 24 hours to accept and didn't. Another offer came in at our counter offer and we took it. Only after they lost it did they come up but it was too late. I was more comfortable with the other buyer and settlement went smooth and they didn't beat us up on inspections so I'm confident we made the right decision. With that said, I think most flips may leave at least a little money on the table in order to sell fast and without issues so we can move onto the next.
  • El Cerrito, CA · Member since 2015 · 257 posts · 129 votes
    9y

    @William C. Yeah I would have agreed with your reasoning. Sounds like you've learned a lot this go around and I bet your next deal will be that much better. I hope to read about the next one. Thanks for sharing.

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