Asbestos Testing Question

Account Closed · 2017-09-07T12:12:08-07:00

I just started my first major flip in Philadelphia, PA. I am trying to get some advice on what's the best way to handle asbestos testing on a full interior gut. Asbestos...I know...shriekkkkk. Anyways, please don't overdramatize it. I've done plenty of research, and I know the dangers. I am also more paranoid than the average person, so I want to be careful with it.Philadelphia doesn't mandate that residential, single family properties have reports done on asbestos. Honestly, I did not consider anything related to asbestos until we got 75% through the demolition. That's when I started to get concerned about the potential for asbestos, and I did some research, became paranoid, etc. First of all, I have no reason to believe my property has asbestos. The inspection the previous owner did had a note about the insulation material potentially having asbestos in it, but no testing was done. It was more of a generic comment about the type of insulation we had. I am assuming 100% of old-style row homes in Philadelphia have some level of asbestos materials inside. So, here comes the question, do people typically do any testing when you're doing a complete interior demo? If you do testing, I would think you'd have to take 50+ samples of material to get a good level of confidence, and I just don't see anyone doing that. I've read a decent amount of flipping books, and not once do I recall someone recommending you go out and do asbestos testing during due diligence. Furthermore, none of the contractors I have worked with have ever noted anything to do with asbestos. What gives?To give a little context, my property is a 3 story row home built around 1910. The cosmetic surfaces were likely redone around 1995 during a previous flip and when an addition was added. Besides lath/plaster walls, there really isn't anything that screams asbestos. No linoleum tiles, loose insulation, etc. We did remove two inoperable chimneys, though. At this point, what's done is done. I think if I could do it over again I'd have brought someone in to at least try and narrow down potential hot spots. The chimneys removal was a dirty job, and I definitely spent time in the property during the process (always with a respirator mask, but I didn't upgrade to P100 until recently...gasp!), so that's what's most concerning health-wise. Anyways, there's nothing I can do about that now, so I just need to be more careful moving forward. What do people recommend I do, if anything. Option 1 is to just continue to wear my P100 mask when I'm in the property, make sure workers wear masks, and just stop worrying about it. Option 2 would involve some sort of testing. I could do material and air quality tests for a few hundred bucks. If things come back negative, I feel a whole lot better. If things come back positive, then I have to decide again whether to let it go or do invasive/expensive remediation (i.e. scrubbing the air and wiping everything down). No great options. I'm just so surprised that this doesn't seem to come up more on full guts with flippers.Thanks for any and all help!

Account Closed

Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 97 posts · 30 votes

9y

@Account Closed During your property inspection the inspector and/or contractor should have been able to identify evidence of asbestos on the property. What'd recommend is that if the previous owner did mention there could be evidence of it "do the right thing". Even though it may not be mandated by law, your end goal would be to sell this most likely to a family who'd live in the home for the next 10-20 years or so. At the end of the day having a test and/or inspection done wouldn't be too costly for you.

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Will BarnardPro Member

Moderator

Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes

9y

Option 2 is the best choice minus the part that if it comes back positive, just ignore it. If it does come back positive and you do notbproperly remove it or disclose it, you are liable. We are in this business to make money and lawsuits will eat away at you and your profits so do the right thing.

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Manolo D.

Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes

9y

Alex Berger Ive done two jobs with heavy asbestos, one tear down, the other occupied office remodel. What's done is done, but imagine this (since you already did research), what if the asbestos during your demo, flew and landed on your clothing, you bring them home, hug the kids, get them to inhale it, when you remove them and put them on the hamper, it contaminates it. That's the start. Health damage causing agents when you're 60s will probably dont have the time to develop, but what if they go their way to the teens in the household.. It does not mean that since everyone is not doing it, that it is right and correct. The law excuses noone. Do the right thing and do the testing before you demo. A guess is not a test, never trust anything or anyone unless they are written reports from a testing company.

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Account Closed

OP

Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 0 votes

9y

Thanks @Account Closed for all the useful comments. First of all, I've always and will continue to "do the right thing." There's never a doubt there. I am not looking to cut corners, I'm more trying to understand what other people do to see if there's a more logical approach. My assumption is that every home in my area has some amount of asbestos materials. So, every flip that's a full interior demo will need dozens of material tests. Then I imagine at least a few of the tests will trigger positive test results. So now you hire a remediation company for safe removal. Then you'd want to get an air test at the end of demo. If there is a positive result, you'd section off the impacted portion of the house and scrub the air with HEPA filters. Then you'd check the air again when you're finished with construction. And along the way, everyone on the property wears a P-100 filter and a body suit at all times. Depending on the results, this process would easily add $10,000-$20,000 to a project for a small home. Maybe this is just what you have to do, and if so, then I will factor that in on future projects. I am asking the question because I know some other flippers, I've done a decent amount of research, I've watched other demos and been to lots of job sites, and I just don't recall anyone working through a process like this. Will mentioned we're in this business to make money. Agreed, so I'm just trying to see what is truly needed. I am not trying to downplay the severity or cut corners, but if other very successful flippers have a process for how they inspect during due diligence, demo, post-construction, etc., that's what I'm here to find out!

One other point, I definitely made a typo in my first post. When I talked about Option 2, if results come back positive, I'd of course not "let it go." Mentally, I wouldn't feel good about working in the house, selling it, etc. I meant to say that if we go out and get any remaining material on the property tested, and it comes back positive, there'd be an option to "let it go" because the demo is finished and I'm not planning to remove any other materials. So, for example, if we test the remaining plaster on one of the party walls, and it comes back positive, there's really not much I can do because we're already done with demo and we're planning to encapsulate all remaining materials. However, if I get an air test post-demo, and that comes back positive, I'd 100% do an air scrub with HEPA filters. And of course, I know that any finding of asbestos has to be disclosed.

Thanks, guys!

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Manolo D.

Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes

9y

Alex B. You're overthinking it half way. You don't have to do all that, P100 and suits, the asb contractor will do it for you, this will also cost down the demo amount, so if you're demo is 10k if neg result and the asb contractor demos 30% for 5-6k, then that's it, you're removing 3k but paying 6k for it, your demo guy will then need to settle with 7k. Your tradesmen is not allowed (in my case) or is not encouraged to enter an asb positive zone even if they are in suits until results become negative, or unless they are certified to be around asb. Remember that masks only cover inhalation, not airborn that will land in shirt or skin, which in another time will become airborn again. The way to do it is, testing, then do the abatement first before any demo, once cleared, you can proceed with regular work.

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Account Closed

OP

Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 0 votes

9y

@Manolo D. Makes sense. I appreciate the feedback. In the future, I will definitely bring someone in during due diligence to identify hot spots, do the testing and remediate where necessary. For now, since demo is done, I'll do a TEM air test and then scrub the property if we have any positive results, retest until safe, and then continue with the project. We just submitted for a building permit, so I have 15 days to kill. This seems like a good project in the meantime! And yes, I understand that contaminants can and will cling to clothing. Anyways, I've learned a lot throughout the process and will definitely have a better game plan next time so I don't lose sleep at night thinking what if. Anyways, it's been a good learning experience, so not all is lost.

Thanks again.

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Manolo D.

Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes

9y

@Account Closed Correct, be careful on testing during due diligence, not so sure about regulations before abatement, but I'd imagine that asb fibers might fly because technically you are disturbing the area. Doesn't hurt to ask the testing lab what you can and can't do.

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Account Closed

OP

Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 0 votes

9y

@Manolo D. Fair point. I did read that most testing companies are pretty inconspicuous with regards to where they test, so perhaps that would be allowable during due diligence. It's definitely something to keep in mind and make sure sellers are aware of and ok with during DD.

Thanks again guys for the responses. Everything's been helpful. I had a company come out and perform a TEM test, and the results were negative (less than the fiber threshold) on all floors. They also looked at remaining materials on the property and advised that it's unlikely there's any asbestos material. They said there's no need for material testing. I'm glad that everything is good, and I can better streamline the process on future projects. Now I can continue to wait for permit approval!

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Tim Silvers

Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2009 · 197 posts · 32 votes

4y

We wholesaled a small multi-family deal to one of our buyers. The property had a sewer line damage and an insurance claim that had since settled. Seller provided us with an asbestos report which showed that 6 samples were done and all samples tested negative. Buyer purchased as-is. Subsequent to closing escrow, one of the units caught fire and in the process of the fire investigation, it was discovered that there was in fact asbestos behind the drywall. I have since learned there are 2 layers of drywall and you have to test both layers. Apparently, the testing company did not test for both layers. In addition, i have learned that there should've been about 30 samples tested for as opposed to only 6. What recourse does my buyer have, if any, at this point, as he is obviously dissatisfied with the purchase and is blaming the seller for non-disclosure even though the seller claims the report they sent is the only report they are aware of.

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Asbestos Testing Question

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