Developer · Houston, TX · Member since 2008 · 488 posts · 121 votes
I've got a contract to buy a house here with no option period ($2,500 in EM right now) set to close on the 22nd.
I got it inspected by a professional and he has noted in the report / spoke with me about that this house has had foundation work done before.
He told me he could not find evidence of a current foundation problem, but would like for me to get it checked out by a foundation company?
He stated "As noted, cosmetic interior differential movement evident as well as some cracks at foundation wall. Appears due to previous foundation movement, before or during what appears to be foundation repair, however no paperwork of what company and where foundation was repaired available, it is recommended that buyer consult with a foundation specialist for precautionary purposes."
My question: as of right now, I am not aware of any structural problem / foundation problem. No cracks, no sticking windows, no sticking doors, etc.
There is evidence that they did have the foundation repaired before. If I call out another company to do an inspection, I feel that 9.5 times out of 10 they will find something wrong, and it will cost me, and I will have to disclose it.
There is a minimum margin on this deal for repairs and a major foundation problem will blow it all. I do not think it has any type of major foundation problem, as well as the inspector - but since it is on his report, I want to know what the best way to get things done (at a reasonable expense / least liability).
If you're ever worried about a contractor charging for unnecessary work, bring in an independent third party. These days, for anything foundation/structural, I bring in an engineer to assess the situation and recommend a solution. The engineer makes the same amount of money regardless of whether he finds an issue or not, so there's no reason for him to tell me to do unnecessary work.
The other benefit of an engineer is that once he provides a recommendation on what work to do, I can hire contractors who don't need to "specialize" in foundation repair to do the work -- they will be less expensive than a foundation company, as will do just as good a job if they have the engineer's recommendations.
What kind of repairs are assumed to have been made?
I don't do a lot of work in Houston (assuming this is where your deal is) but if you can tell me what intersection is within a mile or so of the address, I can take a look at what type of geology is in the area to get a better idea of the soil type. Altough using a geological atlas is no substitute for taking samples, it's free, and having an idea of what the soil conditions is pretty helpful when diagnosing this sort of thing.
There are two patches in the drive way that were re-cemented over - inspector thinks this is from previous foundation repairs. Not sure what repairs were made, called the wholesaler today and asked him to speak with the home owner about it, and get any type of warranty, etc.
If I call out another company to do an inspection, I feel that 9.5 times out of 10 they will find something wrong, and it will cost me, and I will have to disclose it.
Given that you're 95% certain that there is something wrong, it's hard to deny knowledge at this point, and you're legally required to disclose it. Posting on an Internet forum doesn't help with plausible deniability either... :)
My suggestion would be to get an engineer out there to inspect. Either he finds a problem and you can make decisions from there or he doesn't find any issues and can write a letter saying that there are no existing problems (and you can give this letter to your buyers and be done with it).
Either way, I'd think at this point you can't ignore it...
If you're ever worried about a contractor charging for unnecessary work, bring in an independent third party. These days, for anything foundation/structural, I bring in an engineer to assess the situation and recommend a solution. The engineer makes the same amount of money regardless of whether he finds an issue or not, so there's no reason for him to tell me to do unnecessary work.
The other benefit of an engineer is that once he provides a recommendation on what work to do, I can hire contractors who don't need to "specialize" in foundation repair to do the work -- they will be less expensive than a foundation company, as will do just as good a job if they have the engineer's recommendations.
J - How do you provide a foundation warranty when you hire someone other than a foundation company? What kinds of contractors are you using to install the piers? Does the engineer come back after the repairs are completed to sign off?
J - How do you provide a foundation warranty when you hire someone other than a foundation company? What kinds of contractors are you using to install the piers? Does the engineer come back after the repairs are completed to sign off?
If you want/need a warranty, you either need to bring in a GC who will give you one or go with the foundation company for the higher price. That's basically what you get for paying 2-3x as much with a foundation company (though it may very well be worth it).
And yes, the engineer should be willing to review the work and provide a letter.
Looks like my services are no longer necessary, lol. Anyway, the patches in the driveway are a good indicator. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if they cut the driveway, there are probably pressed peirs all around the house and not in just one area. If this is the case, there will be pressed piers at the corners, and digging a test pit just below the grade beam could verify the presence of the actual repair element.
A good repair company that offers a warranty will probably have a sketch on file indicating the rough pier locations. They need this so when they come back to honor the warranty, they know where to find the piers so they can add shims. They should also have a floor slab elevation survey so they know when they have the foundation back to the "reference" elevation.
The piers may not be pressed piers, but 95 percent of the time they are. If this is the case, and if expansive soils are the problem, then the house will still contiue to move, just not quite as much. The reason for this is because there is nothing to anchor the piers below the active depth of soil moisture content changes. Most contractors will not shoot you straight with that info, but if there is a warranty it doesn't really matter because they will shim it when it moves anyways (provided they remain in business).
Some considerations if you take the house:
Keep the perimeter soils moist with a soaker hose. This will reduce the risk of future movements except in extreme drought where all the soils shrink and pull away so much that the locally moist soils move out as well.
If you do let the soils dry and and then call them out to re-shim, soak the crap out of the ground for a few days before they come out. Chances are, their warranty is subject to you keeping the soils moist. Last thing you want is to have them come out and discover dry soils and void your warranty.
Lastly, delay all sheet rock repairs until the very end. Since the house is still subject to movement, you don't want to have to repair the same things you have already repaired. Even if the foundation company warrantees their work, it will not change the damage to the finsishes which will occur from the movement. The warranty will not (I can garauntee you) cover the interior finishes.
Lastly, lastly, If you don't want to jack around with a soaker house, you can put an impermeable cover around the outer perimeter of the house and extend it outward at least 5 ft. This can consist of flatwork (sidewaks and driveways, etc.) or plastic sheeting. The plastic sheeting should have 8 to 12 inches of protective soil cover placed above it. The purpose of the impermeable cover is to maintain a constant moisture content in the underlying soils. I recommend soaking the soils for a week prior to covering. Depending on what you are going to do with landscaping, this may or may not be worth your while. It would certainly be a boon to the end buyer, but they won't understand it, appreciate it, see it or pay for it.
If you want/need a warranty, you either need to bring in a GC who will give you one or go with the foundation company for the higher price. That's basically what you get for paying 2-3x as much with a foundation company (though it may very well be worth it).
And yes, the engineer should be willing to review the work and provide a letter.
Lets limit this slab foundations. I can hire a reputable foundation company that provides a lifetime warranty for $175 per pier. Now I'm hearing another one is quoting $150. I'd certainly be interested in getting the job done for one-third of that...and just provide an engineer's report/letter if requested by the buyer.
What kind of contractors are you hiring to do the piers?
How much do you pay (average per pier)?
How much do you pay for materials, say for a 15 footer?
How much would it cost you per pier if you hired a foundation company there?
If you want/need a warranty, you either need to bring in a GC who will give you one or go with the foundation company for the higher price. That's basically what you get for paying 2-3x as much with a foundation company (though it may very well be worth it).
And yes, the engineer should be willing to review the work and provide a letter.
Lets limit this slab foundations. I can hire a reputable foundation company that provides a lifetime warranty for $175 per pier. Now I'm hearing another one is quoting $150. I'd certainly be interested in getting the job done for one-third of that...and just provide an engineer's report/letter if requested by the buyer.
What kind of contractors are you hiring to do the piers?
How much do you pay (average per pier)?
How much do you pay for materials, say for a 15 footer?
How much would it cost you per pier if you hired a foundation company there?
I am not expert on Georgia, so don't take this as gospel, but I do not believe the foundation problems we have commonly in the metroplex are common in Georgia. We sufffer from expansive clays and that is where 95% of the foundation repair work around here eminates from.
Here, a general contractor would charge a lot more to do the repair than a specialized company due to economy of scale. GC's might not even know how to do the repairs.
Your prices are pretty good for per pier, but I would caution to stay away from the companies that could go out of business. Then who will honor your "lifetime" warranty? There are a lot of Jo-bobs out there doing this work. Most of them don't know why it works and why they have to come back out to re-shim every other year-forever.
Good luck getting an engineer to sign off on a pressed pier repair. They might be out there, but I would certainly not consider them to be competent if they are willing to sign off on that repair. And that signature won't change the fact that the pressed pier repair is inferior (albiet the cheapest option). But then again, I can write a letter that looks like it says something but it really doesn't bind me to anything. That is an essential skill when working with non uniform engineering materials (earth) where we try our best to quantify engineering solutions with limited information.
I hear you Brian regarding the fly-by-nights and the value of the paper the warranty is written on. While these guys aren't as big as Lehman Brothers ;-) this foundation company has an A rating with the BBB and they've been around for 6 years.
I hear you Brian regarding the fly-by-nights and the value of the paper the warranty is written on. While these guys aren't as big as Lehman Brothers ;-) this foundation company has an A rating with the BBB and they've been around for 6 years.
As a quick aside, at the last REI meeting I went to in Fort Worth, one of the sponsors with a repair company said he would shim existing piers and warranty them. That is a good tool to have in your tool box if you come across a house with a repair (very common in our area) but no documentation. I don't remember the name of the company, but you could probably find him somewhere on the DFW REI group website. If he is not advertising there, you could ask the forum. It appeared several investors at the group had experience with him.
Is this property a foreclosure? If so I'm not sure the warranty from the previous foundation repair will transfer. I'm in the middle of rehabbing a foreclosure in San Antonio that had previous foundation repair done and the warranty didn't transfer to me due to the foreclosure. If your in Houston you can go through Alex dela torre at trinity foundation to check your foundation.
No, the guy's name is Robin and the meeting occurs every Saturday off of Beach Street and I30. I haven't been in a while due to school studies. I believe Tim Cook meets in Weatherford?
Is this property a foreclosure? If so I'm not sure the warranty from the previous foundation repair will transfer. I'm in the middle of rehabbing a foreclosure in San Antonio that had previous foundation repair done and the warranty didn't transfer to me due to the foreclosure. If your in Houston you can go through Alex dela torre at trinity foundation to check your foundation.
That would be wholly dependent on how the Warranty is drawn up. Atlas Foundation here in DFW has a warranty that stays with the house and not the purchaser. I have that warranty with my personal house (purchased by previous owner)and they have performed a few times on the warranty. In fact, they will be back out this week. I am not pitching them as I am not familiar with their pricing structure, but they have honored their warranty and have been in business for about 60 years.
That being said, the warranty is contingent on maintaining moisture in the soil surrounding the house. That's why I recommended to Danny (or others) to soak the crap out of the ground if he ever calls for warranty work.
An interesting tidbit....The owner of Atlas Foundation Repair told me that one of the companies in town (can't remember their name) had this crazy goal to make 1 million or 10 million (some large amount at that time in the past for that type of business) and they got it by introducing the lifetime warranty. That forced everybody in town to follow suit because nobody wanted to pay for the repair with out the warranty anymore. The owner of Atlas said he'd liked to have shot those guys! I believe them. Now it cost 10K to to a small house because they KNOW they will be back.
I don't mean to hog up this thread. I just know a lot about this stuff. Probably too much.
here is my 2 cents worth of air. IF your inspector thought it may be a problem,,,chances are so will the buyers inspector,,,so its good to get ahead of this!!!!
No, the guy's name is Robin and the meeting occurs every Saturday off of Beach Street and I30. I haven't been in a while due to school studies. I believe Tim Cook meets in Weatherford?
I would start with a structural engineer not a foundation repair company. The structural engineer will either provide a letter stating it is sound and doesn't need repairs or provide a scope of work of what specifically needs fixed. You should be able to do this for around $300-400. If the report calls out necessary repairs to shore up the foundation, you will have no choice but to fix it, and then have the engineer provide a letter after the repairs.
If you discover there are repairs needed you will have no choice but to disclose this to the new buyer or any other buyer that comes along.